5 hours ago, Gordon Freemann said:

And lost again...

I made him pay dearly but was unable to kill one of his ships, while loosing both MC30s in the process. Both MC30s did go down with zero shields, thanks to ECM. As I need to get close the evades didn't do any good and the re-directs where blocked all the time.

One MC30 did do a lot of damage to the ISD rolling Max on the turn with concentrate fire, but failed to roll a single target lock, so he braced and redirected the rest. Of course he took some nice damage, but he had a repair token, a repair command and blast doors and still had 4 damage left. The 2nd return volley kill the 2nd MC30.

The VSD didn't fair much better being treated by the 1st MC30 and used the Blast doors and a repair dial to survive with 6 damage due to very poor rolling of my Liberty.

I was forced to go 2nd again! With a fleet of 282 points, because he had 281...

I would have annihilated him if I have gone first. The Liberty lured the ISD away leaving the 1st MC30 and the GR75 to deal with the VSD. The 2nd MC30 jumped form hyperspace into the rear section of the ISD.

Alsmost everything went according to the basic plan and still I lost

It was a **** of a fight, but I'm none the wise what to do better. The amount of fire I have put into him was huge, but with him repairing and the blast doors it's like puting our a fire while somebody pours gazoline into it.

We had a newbie with us this game and he said, that the rebel player has to do all the work, while the Emipre player more or less just moves along and shots.
It was a very sombering comment, because that's the way it was. I maneuvered around him, split his fleet hyper space assaulted him into the rear arc and still lost to the resilience and firepower the VSD and ISD had.

I'm not dissatisfied because I made him sweat and work hard, but I did still loose which casts a shadow over the hole thing. Not the loosing, but the "what could I have done better" part.
Maneuvering was extremely hard, but I mostly avoided being double arc from him, while double arcing him from time to time.

Going 2nd he slipped my grasp so many times that it was frustrating and my list just couldn't deal with it.

A quick note: due to how movement works in this game, being second player and behind an enemy actually does not work out, you'll never get good range shots. You want to be either attacking from the side or the front, and then blowing past the deadly front arcs.

Second, if you're playing against ISD and VSD, Ackbar with more upgrades is actually the pinnacle of firepower, not the ISD and VSD. You run away with second player, choose good objectives, and blast him down from long range constantly kiting away.

13 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

At least not his front arc

The mission he choose was Hyperspace Assault, which came as a surprise, but the other two were Advanced Gunnery and Solar Corona. So non of the were good for him.

The Interceports/TIEs kill a 4 A-Wings, but I took three with me and kept them busy until round 6
He is no good with fighters atm unless in regards to CAS, but from his side it's only: get into dogfight and stop them so the Star Destroyers can do their part. One of his weaknesses, but right now there is no way of capitalizing on that.

I didn't use Admonishion to keep points low and the ECM worked way better. Both MC30s use up most or all of their shields before going down, which stop way more damage than negating a single die would have done. Maybe it's because of the different Meta?

It's good to see his fighters are impotent now, as expected. I really can't recommend Admonition enough, though; it's definitely in the top 3 best titles in the game. Even if you choose to keep ECM (if it works for you great, but it's wise to compare the more popular alternatives, even just with some test rolls), Admo survives where other MC30s just can't. On a good day, it can even survive a close-range front arc (though that's not where you want it.) We have ISD and VSD 2s around, so I'd ask: how often have you played/seen Admo before?

52 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

It's good to see his fighters are impotent now, as expected. I really can't recommend Admonition enough, though; it's definitely in the top 3 best titles in the game. Even if you choose to keep ECM (if it works for you great, but it's wise to compare the more popular alternatives, even just with some test rolls), Admo survives where other MC30s just can't. On a good day, it can even survive a close-range front arc (though that's not where you want it.) We have ISD and VSD 2s around, so I'd ask: how often have you played/seen Admo before?

Care to elaborate? I did survive with ECm because he hit one of the MC30 4 Times. 2 Rear Arc, once side arc of the ISD (I move a few milimeter to far and got 2 arcs ...) and once, again by a few milimeters got the front of the VSD into my rear. How would the Admonishion survive that? It's good for surviving an Alpha, but several volleys of fire? I don't seem to understand how that is possible.

Not sure, I haven't seen a ISD/VSD combo on the BatReps I've watch so far.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The squid might be stronger (it’s okay for me to say that, I’m one-quarter Mon Cal ), but it gets put into danger consistently, whereas TRC90As need to stay at long range anyway. Given the widespread respect the 30 currently enjoys, the evidence needs to be a lot more than an anecdote about Contested Outpost. Probably thread-worthy, in fact.

I think the main problem is that I'm not usually rebel scum.

On 5.1.2018 at 11:52 PM, Formynder4 said:

Well, it should be easy to outmaneuver the Vic at least. And harder for him to do anything once you're out of that front arc. But you'll most likely take at least one blast on your way in. It shouldn't be too bad though.

I definitely vindicated you
I ran "circles" around the ISD and he never had the chance to use the front arc.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

A quick note: due to how movement works in this game, being second player and behind an enemy actually does not work out, you'll never get good range shots. You want to be either attacking from the side or the front, and then blowing past the deadly front arcs.

Second, if you're playing against ISD and VSD, Ackbar with more upgrades is actually the pinnacle of firepower, not the ISD and VSD. You run away with second player, choose good objectives, and blast him down from long range constantly kiting away.

Yes, I should have move into his side arc, weathering the fire and the get into short range when he moves away.

Yes, Ackbar ist pretty obvious, but which setup? The last game he fought against an Ackbar list was 2 AFs, a MC80 and a GR-75.
He lost, but the rebel had one AF with 1 hull point left standing.

CR90 don't generate enough firepower for his kind of ships. Just as an example. I dealt 19 points pure Damage to the VSD (Brace already substracted) and he still survived. The ISD got about 16 points of pure damage. And if he knows what's coming he'll just queue repair commands to either replenish shields or reduce hull damage.

What about this list? As he will play the combo he's playing now with minor adjustments to make it better, I'm pretty sure I don't need 4 activations. MY 4 vs 2 advantage didn't work out to well.
So If I drop one of the GR75- I can push more stuff into the MC80s.

17 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Care to elaborate? I did survive with ECm because he hit one of the MC30 4 Times. 2 Rear Arc, once side arc of the ISD (I move a few milimeter to far and got 2 arcs ...) and once, again by a few milimeters got the front of the VSD into my rear. How would the Admonishion survive that? It's good for surviving an Alpha, but several volleys of fire? I don't seem to understand how that is possible.

Because with Admonition you get to spend each token twice, essentially.

At long range, spend an evade to cancel a double-hit or hit-crit, then discard that evade to cancel another double-hit or hit-crit. You've saved yourself 4 damage with one token.

At medium range, you can do the same, but with a reroll. On average, it will save you about 3 damage.

At close range, you can spend a redirect token to redirect the attack, and then discard that redirect (or one of your now-useless evades if you still have them) to cancel another die, probably for another 2 damage.

5 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

What about this list?

• With Home One on the table, you won't need the Intel Officer on Defiance.
• Change Leia to Toryn Farr.
• Drop the other GR-75.
• Add 2 A-Wings.
• You should have 4 points left over — you can put Lando on Defiance.
• Alternatively, keep the Intel Officer and drop the Home One title... you might be able to upgrade one A-Wing to Shara Bey.

1 minute ago, stonestokes said:

Because with Admonition you get to spend each token twice, essentially.

At long range, spend an evade to cancel a double-hit or hit-crit, then discard that evade to cancel another double-hit or hit-crit. You've saved yourself 4 damage with one token.

At medium range, you can do the same, but with a reroll. On average, it will save you about 3 damage.

At close range, you can spend a redirect token to redirect the attack, and then discard that redirect (or one of your now-useless evades if you still have them) to cancel another die, probably for another 2 damage.

That I understand, but he never shot at me at long range. He knew that I need to get close so he just waited.
What bonus will Admonishion give me at knife fighting range over the ECM and the possibility to redirect damage to a different shield?
In this setup I had to choose and I knew I had to go really close. Admonishion has a max of 4 uses canceling 1 die each. I know that I can cancel 2 dice at short range, but for 8 points?

2 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

• With Home One on the table, you won't need the Intel Officer on Defiance.
• Change Leia to Toryn Farr.
• Drop the other GR-75.
• Add 2 A-Wings.
• You should have 4 points left over — you can put Lando on Defiance.
• Alternatively, keep the Intel Officer and drop the Home One title... you might be able to upgrade one A-Wing to Shara Bey.

Why use A Wings at all? He doesn't use many fighters (7 right now) and the EWS will completely negate the fighters if he goes for one shield. Otherwise 2 A-Wings will hold about 1 turn maybe killing 1 in return. I don't really see a use for them in that setup.

1 minute ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Why use A Wings at all? He doesn't use many fighters (7 right now) and the EWS will completely negate the fighters if he goes for one shield. Otherwise 2 A-Wings will hold about 1 turn maybe killing 1 in return. I don't really see a use for them in that setup.

What if he goes against a different hull zone?

11 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

In this setup I had to choose and I knew I had to go really close. Admonishion has a max of 4 uses canceling 1 die each. I know that I can cancel 2 dice at short range, but for 8 points?

You're right. Admonition is probably not worth it. /s

1 minute ago, stonestokes said:

You're right. Admonition is probably not worth it.

At least not in this instance. If I would have gone for 400 points I'd taken that title for sure.

1 hour ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Care to elaborate? I did survive with ECm because he hit one of the MC30 4 Times. 2 Rear Arc, once side arc of the ISD (I move a few milimeter to far and got 2 arcs ...) and once, again by a few milimeters got the front of the VSD into my rear. How would the Admonishion survive that? It's got for surviving an Alpha, but several volleys of fire? I don't seem to understand how that is possible.

Here's why ECM isn't used much for the MC30.

On 3/3/2018 at 11:13 AM, The Jabbawookie said:

If he's blocking defense tokens, he's actually helping you. Say, for example, he gets four accuracies and locks down everything. He's sacrificing four dice, which is at least four damage. Had he dealt damage with those four dice your tokens would have stopped four damage anyway (3 redirected + 1 evaded), but instead you get to keep your shields and still have fresh tokens. If he just locks down your redirects, you're only taking one more damage than you would have taken otherwise (if either would have been a double hit, then you're actually still better off.) You can respond by evading, then using Admonition to discard the same evade you just spent. If you want ECMs on there, it's totally your call. But I recommend you try rolling some dice at Admonition with and without ECM, just to test.

Now, let's throw some imaginary dice at Admonition (ECMless.) Scenario a assumes he uses as many accuracies as needed; scenario b assumes he uses only damage. Bear with me, we're headed into headache territory, but you wanted elaboration.

I. Two rear arcs.

(a. If he spends two of his dice on accuracies, laugh, discard an evade and take zero damage each time.

(b. If he didn't use any accuracies, redirect the damage as well as discarding the evades each time, losing 3 shields on the front and one on the side (this is a prime example of how being given the choice to spend the tokens is worse, by the way.)

II. One side arc shot is taken.

(a. You have full shields, and no evade tokens, which were useless anyway. If he spends 2 of his dice on accuracies, laugh and eat 2 damage on your shields.

(b. You now have 0 shields in front, 2 on the close side, 3 on the far side. If he didn't use any accuracies, redirect two to the rear.

III. One VSD-II front arc shot is taken.

(a. You have 1 shield on one side arc, full shields everywhere else, and no evade tokens (it sounds like the shot was close range, so these would be useless anyway.) If he spends 2 dice on accuracies, discard a redirect and eat 3 damage: 2 to shields, 1 (we'll say a crit) to the hull.

(b. All your shields are gone, except on one side. Which one doesn't matter, as he's shooting your rear. If he spends no dice on accuracies, redirect 3 damage, discard a redirect and eat 2 to the hull.

IV. The aftermath.

(a. Congratulations, bold MC30! Barring further damage, you have survived the nightmare! You should have 3 hull points left. It doesn't even matter if the VSD concentrated fire; you'd still have 2 hull points left. Now GTFO of there at full speed.

(b. Your survival is uncertain, but you should be alive. You should have 2 hull points left, barring any two of the following a. Structural Damage b. a double hit c. a concentrate fire command or d. quad battery turrets. GTFO if you're alive.

So what did we learn? We learned ECM doesn't guarantee your survival as well as Admonition. Why? He has SW7s. He can't block the only defense token that matters at close range (redirect.) Therefore, he'll use all accuracies as damage, because they're otherwise useless; that means ECM automatically puts you in scenario b, the "bad" one. There are other intricacies here (special combinations of additional CF commands, your speed/QBTs, double hits) but we'd be here all day. None of these make scenario b a better place to be.

One more note: without the Admonition title, usually a (one CF/QBT/Structural/double/ram required at any point) and always b result in a dead MC30.

Hope this helps!

16 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Hope this helps!

Definitly. Didn't see that coming.

27 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Definitly. Didn't see that coming.

It's seriously counterintuitive, I'll admit. On another note, Lando is generally amazing but does very little for you here because of the SW7s and lack of black dice in your opponent's fleet. Strategic Adviser all the way. A-wings will be good at keeping the Interceptors from just moving and hitting an unobstructed side. Given that your foe is carelessly not bringing ECMs, Home One is good; Intel Officer will be better once he learns his mistake the hard way.

53 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

What if he goes against a different hull zone?

True...
What about Z95 anything good? cheap 3 dice swarm. cannon fodder to slow him down?

34 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

True...
What about Z95 anything good? cheap 3 dice swarm. cannon fodder to slow him down?

The A-wing will likely serve you more consistently, as it’s able to catch and often survive an interceptor attack, then counter to make them uncomfortable. 95s are decent in some scenarios, but not reliable against a dedicated superiority fighter. You could do very well with them, or very poorly. It depends entirely on how much you trust the dice to spike for you and not him. It's not necessarily a bad way to go.

Before I go on, I'd like to say that I appreciates everybody's help and encouragement. The reason why I often voice my doubts is because I see something different and I try to understand why that is. I'm not dismissing opinions of people but trying to understand where I'm wrong.

That being said...

What to do next? I had fun with the Madine fleet , but my regular opponent will no doubt adapt to that fleet. Either his fleet or is tactic.

He did stop with the VSD on turn 2 and sped up as soon as I got into firing range. I could imagine that he will go slow or stop, just to deny me the chance to slip behind him.

I have several choices:

1. Drop some weight to get 1st player
2. Go for 400 points and add stuff to make my ships more effective e.g. add XI7 to the MC30s
3. Change the fleet setup while keeping Madine
4. Totally different fleet.

16 hours ago, stonestokes said:

• With Home One on the table, you won't need the Intel Officer on Defiance.
• Change Leia to Toryn Farr.
• Drop the other GR-75.
• Add 2 A-Wings.
• You should have 4 points left over — you can put Lando on Defiance.
• Alternatively, keep the Intel Officer and drop the Home One title... you might be able to upgrade one A-Wing to Shara Bey.

I changed the setup a bit, but I'm very uncertain what I put in there. Going 2nd with this list isn't that bad, is it?

47 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I changed the setup a bit, but I'm very uncertain what I put in there. Going 2nd with this list isn't that bad, is it?

No LS on either one? Defiance will struggle to trigger if you're bidding for first.

I feel like Home One should be a 75, since it can take the twins to reroll 5 red dice. It also gives you a brawler to get in close with ER and LS.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

No LS on either one? Defiance will struggle to trigger if you're bidding for first.

I feel like Home One should be a 75, since it can take the twins to reroll 5 red dice. It also gives you a brawler to get in close with ER and LS.

Oooh. I like this. Add in the Aspiration title and you can move shields to two arcs so you have 6 where it matters.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Oooh. I like this. Add in the Aspiration title and you can movve shields to two arcs so you have 6 where it matters.

And if you drop Defiance, you can take Home One. XI7 on the 75, and you can shut down both Brace and Redirect.

Here is a quick 80 to 75 conversion.

Massive bid at 31, which can be dropped. I feel like Toryn should be swapped for Leia, since Toryn isn't doing much and is expensive, or add IO to the 75.

Objectives feel weak. Perhaps dropping the A-Wings and picking up 2 VCXs instead. Take Fire Lanes and Sensor Net, or take 1 VCX/1 Z-95 with Cap VIP and Mine Fields.

Faction: Rebel
Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation: Solar Corona

MC80 Assault Cruiser (114)
• Admiral Ackbar (38)
• Lando Carissian (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Home One (7)
= 185 Points

MC75 Armored Cruiser (104)
• Caitken and Shollan (6)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• External Racks (3)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Aspiration (3)
= 133 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Toryn Farr (7)
• Comms Net (2)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 29 Points

Squadrons:
• 2 x A-wing Squadron (22)
= 22 Points

Total Points: 369