Hi!

I'm having a real problem facing an ISD with my Rebels. I have played 2 games against this setup and every time he utterly destroys me.
Not sure why, but I'm not coming to the conclussion, that rebel fighters are better than imperial ones. He can keep me either pretty busy with his fighters or kills them pretty fast

This was his setup

This was mine

My rolls where pretty bad too, but he has Vader and managed to deal 9 damage with his VDS in one turn alone. His fighters ate at my X-Wings with easy dealing 2 points on the TIE fighters and 3 on the Interceptors on average. Even with Biggs and 6 additional X-Wings, that was quit a beating I took.

Tactic is always the same (with a bit of variation): ISD goes 3, VSD 2. Banking Nav tokens to change easy. He keeping the ships close together and the fighters at the side of his ships (Interceptors at the ISD). If I move my fighters into range, he used the WC to attack my fighters first (due to having more range) and deals nice damage most of the time. He uses the ISD to force me to evade and the VSD to deal with ship that try to flank around.

If I go for more activations I don't have any antiship firepower in the list and his 81 pt. fighters will happily deal with my 134 pts. Sure I can take a Hawk, but that safes my hide for 1 turn after he is on me again and shoots at my fighters while at the same time the ISD and VSD can deal insane amounts of damage.

So at this point I'm thinking dropping the game because I just no getting lucky with the dice and have no idea how to deal with his fleet at all.

I don't see how Rebels is stronger than the Empire (because that's what I'm hearing all the time)

Help me Obi-Wan you're my only hope.

No offence...but as a new player....trying to make SATO work effectively when really not many people can...might be part of the problem.

Are you bidding for first or 2nd player? Objectives...activations....your sqns are fine..are you pushing them or waiting until sqn phase...He might also just be playing you...I find when I play the same person over and over I learn how to defeat them...regardless of their list.

Your ships are decked out. I rarely put more than 1 or 2 upgrades on smaller ships. You might get more mileage spending the points on X-Wings. Turbolaser reroutes aren't great for the Neb Bs. I think you're better off with something else.

I think you should start your list from scratch and figure out what exactly you want to be doing. If it's a fighter push game, take a look at a couple of GR 75s. If you want a heavy hitter, look at the Mc80 Home One.

Also, Sato is tough to get working. I'd probably look at something like Mon Mothma, Dodonna, or Rieeken.

Just to point out, the Advanced Gunnery objective is useless in his list, as the Gunnery Teams upgrade supersedes the AG objective. So you may be able to catch him off guard choosing that objective.

3 minutes ago, Mogrok said:

No offence...but as a new player....trying to make SATO work effectively when really not many people can...might be part of the problem.

Are you bidding for first or 2nd player? Objectives...activations....your sqns are fine..are you pushing them or waiting until sqn phase...He might also just be playing you...I find when I play the same person over and over I learn how to defeat them...regardless of their list.

I tried Dodonna first.

Same result. He has only 389 points, but he decided to be 1st player anyway.

Which Admiral might work? And please don't tell me Ackbar.

Just now, ianediger said:

Just to point out, the Advanced Gunnery objective is useless in his list, as the Gunnery Teams upgrade supersedes the AG objective. So you may be able to catch him off guard choosing that objective.

Tried and it didn't work.

He is new to Armada, but has been playing 40k and Bolt Action for the past 8 years (Bolt Action since 3). So he's very good for a new player.

I would agree that you may want to try a different fleet approach. Your chosen fleet is fun to fly, but I find those pieces tricky to work together. Try something that allows a high speed pass and tight turns to get aside and behind him. A-wings, vettes, hammerheads, and/or frigates flown as flanking snipers instead of fighter carriers. Try an MC-something if you have one. I'm not saying that you need to give up on the Sato list, just let it simmer on the back burner until you tried some other approaches. Both you and he will adjust tactics, then you can revisit Sato's 1st.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall (and the more fun it is when you get some successes).

I got ninja'd...

Try Madine or Cracken on some small ships and harass him to insanity. Consider messing with tricky objective play if you have those resources. Simplicity and independence of your units can give you less satisfying of a planning, but less predictability during play. I find independent small ships can be very flexible and annoying to large bases.

I often try to outscore opponents while leaving their ISD intact. Then when we've played that way a few times and they don't expect it, I try for the ISD. Hows that for local meta-play. (FYI - I have the same opponent 75% of the time).

Ah, now I look at it again I see the problem. He is running a very effective anti squadron wing, however there is a big flaw, they are awful at attacking ships.

You have put large stock into your squadron wing, but are up against the coutner, a pure anti squadron wing. There are two options here, go squadronless and laugh as he has all those wasted points on squads that are impotent (my favoured option), or find a way to add in Ten Numb for his auto damage which devestates 3 hull squads, and Toryn Farr to make your blue dice wonderful, preferably with a Bomber Command Centre flotilla too to make your red bomber dice rerollable.

24 minutes ago, deDios said:

I got ninja'd...

Try Madine or Cracken on some small ships and harass him to insanity. Consider messing with tricky objective play if you have those resources. Simplicity and independence of your units can give you less satisfying of a planning, but less predictability during play. I find independent small ships can be very flexible and annoying to large bases.

I often try to outscore opponents while leaving their ISD intact. Then when we've played that way a few times and they don't expect it, I try for the ISD. Hows that for local meta-play. (FYI - I have the same opponent 75% of the time).

As we are all (4 of us) new players the meta is roughly this:

Empire: ISD, Plus either VSD or Interdictor + anti squadron

Rebel: Both of us are trying to get the Rebels work. all games have been looses so far.

But I can't ourmaneuver my oppontent. Even going speed 4 with CR90s, if I get into range that ship dies. The VSD alone has 8 dice at long range for his initial salvo.
Ignoring the ISD is also impossible. He's going speed 3 so he can intercept he quit easily. Rounding around him in circles would work if I have 2 more speed than him. But not with only one.

17 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

go squadronless and laugh as he has all those wasted points on squads that are impotent

I second this. This is how you kill an ISD fast:

20 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Ah, now I look at it again I see the problem. He is running a very effective anti squadron wing, however there is a big flaw, they are awful at attacking ships.

You have put large stock into your squadron wing, but are up against the coutner, a pure anti squadron wing. There are two options here, go squadronless and laugh as he has all those wasted points on squads that are impotent (my favoured option), or find a way to add in Ten Numb for his auto damage which devestates 3 hull squads, and Toryn Farr to make your blue dice wonderful, preferably with a Bomber Command Centre flotilla too to make your red bomber dice rerollable.

Yes, he is able to counter most of my wings with his fighters easily. And he doesn't need good anti ship fighters. not with the ISD and VSD. 8 dice longrange for the VSD in an initial salvo... He also has the intel officer, so if I brace that goes down. Like I wrote. Had dealt 9 damage with the VSD this game in one salvo.
And the ISD... Don't ask me about that.

So I'm asking myself: Where is the fighter superiority of the rebels every body keeps telling me about when he is able to counter 134 pts with 81 pts.

Keeping then Numb alive for that long 3(3 turns) is impossible. To do that I need to have at least 3-4 additional X-Wings. which are then only a "buffer" for Ten Numb. 39 pts just to keep Ten Numb alive? Doesn't sound like a good bargain.

All the while hes chasing my ships around and always has fighter commands if he needs them.

6 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

The VSD alone has 8 dice at long range for his initial salvo.

You guys know Dominator is restricted to Close-Medium range, right? Disposable Capacitors doesn't bypass that. The only other way he's getting 8 dice at range is QBT + a CF command.

@Ardaedhel aren't you supposed to give someone a bump whenever you post that picture?

I would also like to add that you clearly aren't squadronless: there is an A-wing in the picture!

Just now, RobertK said:

@Ardaedhel aren't you supposed to give someone a bump whenever you post that picture?

I would also like to add that you clearly aren't squadronless: there is an A-wing in the picture!

You are correct! @Tvayumat will surely rake me across the coals for neglecting to summon him from Runewars-land.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

You guys know Dominator is restricted to Close-Medium range, right? Disposable Capacitors doesn't bypass that. The only other way he's getting 8 dice at range is QBT + a CF command.

Which he did.

As the VSD only goes 2 at max and has a nav token banked he can change the speed any time...

Just now, Gordon Freemann said:

Which he did.

As the VSD only goes 2 at max and has a nav token banked he can change the speed any time...

But on any given turn, only AFTER shooting. ?

Like I wrote, right now I'm quit depressed as the Empire seems to have the upper hand easily...

Small Ships that get into long range get chewed up and the ISD is used as a "battering" ram to chase me around. If I try to avoid him his VSD will intercept my at a certain point and eat ships smaller than an AF on one turn.

With Vader he almost deals max damage or if he fails to roll target locks he opts for less damage and rerolls blues or reds to get at least 1-2 target locks. And he is able to pull that off....

1 minute ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Yes, he is able to counter most of my wings with his fighters easily. And he doesn't need good anti ship fighters. not with the ISD and VSD. 8 dice longrange for the VSD in an initial salvo... He also has the intel officer, so if I brace that goes down. Like I wrote. Had dealt 9 damage with the VSD this game in one salvo.
And the ISD... Don't ask me about that.

So I'm asking myself: Where is the fighter superiority of the rebels every body keeps telling me about when he is able to counter 134 pts with 81 pts.

The rebel fighter superiority, is more squadron superiority but it has a few key parts. Gallant Haven, Yavaris, Adar Tallon, Jan Orrs, Biggs, Corran, Ten Numb, Wedge, Dutch and Xwings to finish. Its complicated and requires a lot of practice.

1 minute ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Keeping then Numb alive for that long 3(3 turns) is impossible. To do that I need to have at least 3-4 additional X-Wings. which are then only a "buffer" for Ten Numb. 39 pts just to keep Ten Numb alive? Doesn't sound like a good bargain.

3 turns? you have Yavaris!

1 minute ago, Gordon Freemann said:

All the while hes chasing my ships around and always has fighter commands if he needs them.

Incidentally, Nebs struggle because they are forward facing, whereas most rebel ships are broadside based so are very happy to go around the side of the imperial ships, making it much easier to flank and avoid the deadly front arcs.

To give you an idea, this fleet would eat him alive. Take first player away from the imperial, they'll struggle without.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/ackbar-mc30-star-destroyers/

What ships do you have?

So, for starters, reading too far into the online meta is rarely a good idea, we're all highly idiosyncratic and relying on experience that you will gain over time, but may not have right now. Focus on concepts you know you do understand and can use on the table.

Second, my first dozen games or so were against one person, and I won maybe two. Here I am two years later, with a decent tournament record (4th at Atlanta Regional) and more importantly, a deep enjoyment of the game. Don't let yourself be disenheartened, and don't let dice swings on the table "tilt" you, it'll only make your task harder.

If you want specific fleet ideas, I'm going to need to know more about what you have at your disposal. Your previously noted objection notwithstanding, Ackbar is one of the better Rebel Admirals to handle Imperial ship-to-ship firepower superiority. I'm also surprised that your X-wings are falling to the TIEs, between Jan braces behind the X-wing escort and Biggs to keep the damage evenly spread.

Generally, you can do a couple things. First Vader ISDs and VSDs in general are extremely unagile, so running at them with your own high speed, higher agility ships to get out of the better arcs and neutralize their better arcs. Further use the fact that you are second player, forcing him to enter your range without having fired effectively, then blitz past at high speed to close then reopen the range. NOTE: THIS WILL TAKE YOU MORE PRACTICE TO GET RIGHT THAN HE HAS SPENT FIGURING OUT HOW TO CHARGE YOU. This is counter balanced by how much harder it is for him to deal with it once you learn how to do it.

If you have access to Corellian Conflict and Wave 5 Strategic squadrons, you can use that and second player to punish the small numbers of Imperial ships that way. You can also use that speed to set traps, forcing them to enter your optimal ranges and hammer them.

Rebel fighter superiority is in their multi-role capability and significantly stronger bombers. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are running your Xs in a ball to use Biggs and Jan right?

1 minute ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Which he did.

As the VSD only goes 2 at max and has a nav token banked he can change the speed any time...

Make sure he's being honest about that. Speed changes happen during movement, AFTER shooting. Makes QBT a fair bit harder to use.

If you're on Vassal, I suggest practicing with folks on there or just watching those games. If you ever see me on there, feel free to ping me and I'll try to help.

4 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Like I wrote, right now I'm quit depressed as the Empire seems to have the upper hand easily...

I went through that too when I first started playing. My best advice to you right now is to be patient.

I think that Imperials are easier to pick up as beginners, but Rebels are just as strong once you figure them out. Keep at, and try to have fun working things out.

As to your build, definitely drop Sato. You can come back to him later. My opinion is that Dodonna is the best Rebel admiral for beginners, mostly because you don't need to do anything to get use out of him. He just works. And he is cheap, so you can add more Y-Wings!

Also drop Salvation. It is a ship that is difficult to get the hang of at first. Neb-B's are extremely fragile when flanked.

Lastly, check out the blogs Cannot Get Your Ship Out and Steel Squadron . They both have a lot of good advice for beginners.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

The rebel fighter superiority, is more squadron superiority but it has a few key parts. Gallant Haven, Yavaris, Adar Tallon, Jan Orrs, Biggs, Corran, Ten Numb, Wedge, Dutch and Xwings to finish. Its complicated and requires a lot of practice.

3 turns? you have Yavaris!

Incidentally, Nebs struggle because they are forward facing, whereas most rebel ships are broadside based so are very happy to go around the side of the imperial ships, making it much easier to flank and avoid the deadly front arcs.

I had the Yavaris in the list, but he keeps the fighters back as long as he needs to. I have to get the Yavaris into range to make it work...

Going around doesn't work either. Tried that too. Going 4 I can avoid him, but not many ships go that fast. And AF can stay out of range for a limited amount of time, but it starts to suffer in combat turn 2. And he has 1 more red dice at long range...

Let's analyze the list you are fighting against and see what its weaknesses are.

One thing that stands out to me is that his fleet only has two activations. This means he is vulnerable to a last-first attack with something potent and maneuverable. So you probably want a list with 4-5 ships. If you are going first and have more ships to activate, you will be able to see that state of the table before you do your final positioning. MC30s and CR90s are made for this sort of thing. @Ginkapo 's article is good at describing what you probably want to be doing. Here's a fleet list that might give you some ideas...

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 386/400
Commander: Mon Mothma

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Lando Calrissian ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 84 total ship cost

[ flagship ] CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Mon Mothma ( 30 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 83 total ship cost

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 51 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Major Derlin ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 87 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 22 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)
2 X-Wing Squadrons ( 26 points)

Try to position the MC30s to alternate going first when you want them to attack. Example...Round 2: Foresight is last to activate and dives into close range of the ISD. Admonition is just outside of long range of the ISD, to its front. Round 3: Foresight goes first with a crushing double attack and then zooms away at speed 3-4 to the rear arc of the ISD. Admonition waits to activate until after the ISD has moved. The ISD is probably forced to move into medium (or even short!) range of Admonition when the ISD activates. Admonition fires and then maneuvers to close range again. Round 4: Admonition activates first and pounds the ISD with another crushing double-arc, then zooms away. And where is Foresight? Is it coming around for another pass? All the while the CR90s are peppering the ISD from long range with TRCs.

Anyway, if you have the ships, this list is really fun and tough to get after. MC30s and CR90s really like Mon Mothma because of their evades.

ps Don't mind my objectives. There were mostly me just screwing around to play with friends. And with the 386 points, and wanting to go first, they rarely get played anyway. Cheers!

33 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

So, for starters, reading too far into the online meta is rarely a good idea, we're all highly idiosyncratic and relying on experience that you will gain over time, but may not have right now. Focus on concepts you know you do understand and can use on the table.

Second, my first dozen games or so were against one person, and I won maybe two. Here I am two years later, with a decent tournament record (4th at Atlanta Regional) and more importantly, a deep enjoyment of the game. Don't let yourself be disenheartened, and don't let dice swings on the table "tilt" you, it'll only make your task harder.

If you want specific fleet ideas, I'm going to need to know more about what you have at your disposal. Your previously noted objection notwithstanding, Ackbar is one of the better Rebel Admirals to handle Imperial ship-to-ship firepower superiority. I'm also surprised that your X-wings are falling to the TIEs, between Jan braces behind the X-wing escort and Biggs to keep the damage evenly spread.

Generally, you can do a couple things. First Vader ISDs and VSDs in general are extremely unagile, so running at them with your own high speed, higher agility ships to get out of the better arcs and neutralize their better arcs. Further use the fact that you are second player, forcing him to enter your range without having fired effectively, then blitz past at high speed to close then reopen the range. NOTE: THIS WILL TAKE YOU MORE PRACTICE TO GET RIGHT THAN HE HAS SPENT FIGURING OUT HOW TO CHARGE YOU. This is counter balanced by how much harder it is for him to deal with it once you learn how to do it.

If you have access to Corellian Conflict and Wave 5 Strategic squadrons, you can use that and second player to punish the small numbers of Imperial ships that way. You can also use that speed to set traps, forcing them to enter your optimal ranges and hammer them.

Rebel fighter superiority is in their multi-role capability and significantly stronger bombers. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are running your Xs in a ball to use Biggs and Jan right?

Make sure he's being honest about that. Speed changes happen during movement, AFTER shooting. Makes QBT a fair bit harder to use.

If you're on Vassal, I suggest practicing with folks on there or just watching those games. If you ever see me on there, feel free to ping me and I'll try to help.

Because of his WC he can activate his squads anytime on the ISD he likes and once I'm enaged I either move the around a lot or he can use all squads in his squad phase. He will not kill them outright, but he whittles them down pretty fast. And either I use them to do damage on the ISD/VSD or engage his fighters which will take me some time to kill.

I was running the fighters all together, but Jan gives only two braces and Biggs just hands damage down. doesn't account for much in the end. By turn three pretty all of my fighters were still alive, but at an average of 2 HP...

What I don't understand is how to move pass him without him getting a shot with his front arc and by now I'm so frustrated that I don't know how to pull that stunt of at all.

47 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Which he did.

As the VSD only goes 2 at max and has a nav token banked he can change the speed any time...

Tactical advice:

Don't give him QBT. Approach the VSD slowly, with a nav token banked so that you can match its speed. The only combat ship you have is Salvation, which is perfectly happy dueling a VSD at range. You also have Yavaris built as a hybrid combat/carrier, which is fine, but also quite happy slow rolling in at speed 1 against this fleet (FC/FCT gives you very strong threat range on Yav). If you had a combat ship like an MC30 or CR90B that needed to close the distance, your approach would be to enter long range at speed 2 (or 1, if necessary) with a nav token banked, and then jump to speed 4 to close the gap. He is winning the speed control game and being rewarded for it with QBT procs: you need to think about the conditions that are allowing him to get that proc, and find a way to either beat or match him in controlling those conditions. He is keeping his speed lower than yours by banking a nav token. You should do the same thing to be able to control your speed and deny him the QBT proc.

You also have him out-activated and have a long-ranged threat in the form of Salvation, so you should never be forced into giving the VSD a long-range shot you're not prepared to weather. Position your ships in such a way that you can always activate two of them without entering long range of the VSD front arc until combat is joined, so that you force the VSD to go before your last ship--the one that's entering engagement with it--and you deny it that ranged opener. With more ships, you also have the ability to flank the (very slow!) VSD. Swing Salvation around wide into Dom's side arc and harrass it with minimal reprisal.

I recommend you read the Cannot Get Your Ship Out articles on squadron combat, as well, as it's well beyond the scope of a single post here.

Beyond the tactical advice, your list could use some tweaks. Be aware that this is only suggestion, and there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all list in Armada.

List building advice:

Sato is very hard to make work. If you're set on learning him, stick with it, but recognize that there's going to be a steep, painful learning curve in both the tactics and the list building in figuring him out.

This list doesn't benefit a lot from Sato. Sato Salv is awesome, but neither the Pelta nor Yav leverages Sato particularly well. You usually see MC30 Scouts with Sato (after Salv ), because they can threaten black critical effects like Assault Concussion Mission and Assault Proton Torpedoes at long range. The drawback to that approach is that a lot of the most popular ships have evades. Against a big slow Imp list like this with no evades, that approach would actually work remarkably well.

Alternatively, if you're not particularly committed to Sato, consider switching to Dodonna to make those bomber crits a much bigger threat; or, you could go with Rieekan and switch in a few aces like Luke, Dutch, or Ten Numb.

The Biggs ball is really good, but to maximize it you really want Jan in there passing out braces. Biggs doesn't actually decrease overall incoming damage unless the other guy is dumb enough to attack him first, which is why I personally deprioritize him against Jan, who does decrease overall damage. Putting the two of them together would help your survivability significantly against those defensive squadrons. edit: I don't know how I didn't see Jan in there before...

From a broader perspective, you're pretty upgrade-heavy overall here. You have a few upgrades that are undeniably nice to have, but ultimately not critical to the function of your list--so cut them for other stuff. If you're never seeing Slicer Tools, drop Leia. Flight Commander is significantly less important on the Pelta than it is on Yavaris--and dropping that lets you drop Phoenix Home, too, for extra savings. It's nice to follow up a Yavaris double-tap with TRC, but it's also expensive and you're spending an evade on the highest-priority target in your fleet.

Cut all that and you're pretty far along the way to getting yourself a BCC GR-75, which suddenly nearly-doubles the combat effectiveness of all those X-wings. That extra ship's worth of squadron activations also lets you drop the Expanded Hangar Bay to afford Toryn Farr, and now those X-wings also all have Swarm .

On that point: yes, the X-wing has the Bomber keyword, but they're still not great primary bombers. Norra helps with that, certainly, but if you're having a hard time getting damage output, consider swapping in some Y's or B's. B-wings in particular pair well with Yavaris : double-tapping with blue-black is way more potent than double-tapping with red, and is the crux of the reason you get people complaining about the power of Yavaris and Rebel bombers in general.

General observations:

Rebels are generally accepted as having a shallower learning curve than the Imperials, so don't be too discouraged that you're having a hard time picking them up. Almost everybody that's mained Rebels has been in your shoes, and it's definitely frustrating. Honestly, I think that's a design feature, and thematic: all those dice out the front of a star destroyer should be super scary when you have 5 hull. On the other hand, Rebels have historically also had higher skill caps than Imperials: once you learn to use them well, they are very powerful, as evidenced by the weekly Ace Holes QQ threads. I encourage you to keep practicing: that Imperial list is quite bloated with unnecessary luxury upgrades, and both of those big ships have some glaring vulnerabilites.

TL;DR: your list is woefully short on MC30's, and you should remedy that issue immediately.