Hello,

I just wanted to share/receive some thoughts about negotiations that occur during a game. I’ve played about 25 games so far, two of which have been 4e.

My groups seem to be on the extreme end of play time, with most of our games ending before final victory after 16 hours due to exhaustion. There have been some exceptions, but not many.

My first game playing 4e was with an experienced group and we finished the game in 10 hours. Still long, but doable and within our expectations for Twilight Imperium.

However, the second game was with a less experienced group, but everyone had played 3e at least a few times. Once again, we stopped with the winner at 7 vp after 14 hours because children were about to wake up. My hopes for a smoother experience with 4e were dashed.

To finally get to the point, I reflected on the delays. Some of it is that we like to drink, smoke and eat during a 10+ hour game. Part of the delay is we like to talk and visit as we don’t get to see each other too often. But by far, the biggest delays seem to come from negotiations.

Players sneaking off to make deals, a half hour of cajoling and threats just so someone can take their turn, experienced players trying to convince newer players they’re making a bad move (sometimes true, sometimes just a move that affects the arguing player), exhortations about someone being in the lead and who should be attacked instead, etc.

Though encouraged by the rules and often a fun part of the game, this seems to stretch game time to unmanageable lengths.

Do others experience this? Is it other things that stretch out game time? How do others handle player interaction, interrupting turns, etc.?

Thanks!

Leaving the table to have secret discussions is one of the things we don't allow. However, allowing it to happen between Rounds and having a Timer set (ala Diplomacy) could help you out. Don't let negotiations happen away from the table area during a round. Remember, the "Active" player should be the focus of negotiations most of the time.

As for play time, I made an inititive counter, so we don't keep asking "Whose turn is next?", we know who it is. That keeps the flow moving a bit.

As long as everyone is having fun, length of time shouldn't be a real issue.

48 minutes ago, Vilnic said:

Leaving the table to have secret discussions is one of the things we don't allow. However, allowing it to happen between Rounds and having a Timer set (ala Diplomacy) could help you out. Don't let negotiations happen away from the table area during a round. Remember, the "Active" player should be the focus of negotiations most of the time.

As for play time, I made an inititive counter, so we don't keep asking "Whose turn is next?", we know who it is. That keeps the flow moving a bit.

As long as everyone is having fun, length of time shouldn't be a real issue.

Hmmm. I like the idea of an initiative counter.

I was also thinking it may be a good idea to disallow secret meetings.

We do have fun, which is why we keep playing. Not finishing the games and getting a clear winner after so many hours is the only really frustrating part.

And when players pass, I put a checkmark next to their inititive number, so I know I can skip them when their number comes up.

Twilight Imperium is kind of a cross between "old school" boardgaming style game and new school Euro games. As such, depending on the group the length of time can vary wildly. For example in my current group it rarely takes more than 5 to 6 hours to complete a game from setup to clean up. Though I have a few old school groups I don't play with anymore that could turn a TI game into a multi-day event.

I think the defining factor of an old school group is that they get heavily invested in the story of the game, the negotiations, backstabbing, they spend far more time trying to control what is going to happen rather than simply running the mechanics.

I'm not sure there is much you can do to speed up an old school gaming group that lives in the negotiations and drama of a game, its how they enjoy it, what they come to expect from it, so trying to curtail that experience might result in it feeling shallow and unsatisfying.

My suggestion for old school gaming groups like this is to simply lower the point requirements to win the game and add a few extra ways to get points.

Some great variants for this kind of group can be found in TI3

Artifact Planets (forcing all 4 planets into the game) is a great way to add 4 additional points into the game.

Starting the game with 3 extra objectives (Public I's face up). So you end up with 7 P1 objectives.

Than just play the game as you normally would, people should reach the point thresholds much quicker. You will probably end up with your normally excessively long game, but you should be able to finish it rather than calling it after 10 hours :).

My advice however would be to avoid changing any social rules about how your group plays the game. They do it that way because they enjoy it and why else are you there if not to enjoy the experiance. Let them negotiate & plot!

Thanks! One of the groups I play with definitely falls into the “old school” category. I still have all my TI3 stuff, so yeah, adding artifacts back in might be a good idea.

We’ll be playing again this month, but with the newer players. I plan to try out some of the suggestions.

On 4/1/2018 at 9:39 AM, BigKahuna said:

Twilight Imperium is kind of a cross between "old school" boardgaming style game and new school Euro games. As such, depending on the group the length of time can vary wildly. For example in my current group it rarely takes more than 5 to 6 hours to complete a game from setup to clean up. Though I have a few old school groups I don't play with anymore that could turn a TI game into a multi-day event.

I think the defining factor of an old school group is that they get heavily invested in the story of the game, the negotiations, backstabbing, they spend far more time trying to control what is going to happen rather than simply running the mechanics.

I'm not sure there is much you can do to speed up an old school gaming group that lives in the negotiations and drama of a game, its how they enjoy it, what they come to expect from it, so trying to curtail that experience might result in it feeling shallow and unsatisfying.

My suggestion for old school gaming groups like this is to simply lower the point requirements to win the game and add a few extra ways to get points.

Some great variants for this kind of group can be found in TI3

Artifact Planets (forcing all 4 planets into the game) is a great way to add 4 additional points into the game.

Starting the game with 3 extra objectives (Public I's face up). So you end up with 7 P1 objectives.

Than just play the game as you normally would, people should reach the point thresholds much quicker. You will probably end up with your normally excessively long game, but you should be able to finish it rather than calling it after 10 hours :).

My advice however would be to avoid changing any social rules about how your group plays the game. They do it that way because they enjoy it and why else are you there if not to enjoy the experiance. Let them negotiate & plot!

I completely agree. In fact I find, I can't say boring but, not satisfying a TI game that lasts less than 5-6 hours while the longest game I had was awesome (6 players, 14 vp, 3:20pm-8:20am including 2h dinner time and a lot of plotting and treachery).

I made this in an attempt to help organize play:

We just use a whiteboard. In initiative order, we write:

PLAYER -- STRATEGY (#)

We strike through the SC when it's used, and through the player once they pass. It's pretty easy, takes barely any extra time, and cost $1.97 at Walmart.

Suggestion: Instead of writing all that every turn, why not have all the SCs written in order all the time and just erase and rewrite the player names each round. And simply leave a bit of room to put an X next to any used SCs? Even faster.

In my group, your action isn't over until you made the next one in line understand that it's his/her turn. Saying "I'm done" is not enough. That way you minimize the 5-10 minute unintentional pauses that tend to occur.

On 1/7/2018 at 3:05 PM, Caliban said:

I made this in an attempt to help organize play:

How did you put that together? Do you have any files you'd be willing to share? I'd love to make this for our first TI4 game this Sunday...

I modified an old D&D initiative tracker I don't use any more (We use an index card system). I found the image on Google, printed it, and glued it on. Then I used a label maker for the headings.

The little plates are all magnetic, so I can write in player names and move things around as needed. To get it to stand, I affixed 8 or 9 plastic stands I had that I use for cardboard miniatures.

I think I can probably make more use of the field with the phases, but nothing has occurred to me yet.

I did something inspired by Caliban.

Used the same magnets and stuck it on a small magnetic dry erase board. Tried a thinner one from Amazon, but it wasn't strong enough. We'll see how it goes at our first game tomorrow.

Right on. I can't try mine out until 1/20.