If you use a harpoon missile on a ship that does not currently have the harpooned consition and you destroy that ship. Does that destroyed ship still get the harpooned condition, and then damage all ships at range one?
The condition says " If this attack hits, after the attack resolves, assign the "Harpooned!" condition to the defender."
The question is, if an attack is resolved and the ship is destroyed, does a ship still get a condition card?
1 hour ago, punkheadphones said:The question is, if an attack is resolved and the ship is destroyed, does a ship still get a condition card?
Only if that ship remains on the table due to the Simultaneous Fire Rule.
The ship will receive the condition card after it is destroyed. That condition may be triggered by a critical hit later if the ship remains in play due to the simultaneous fire rule, but it will never trigger the destroyed effect of the condition since the ship was already destroyed before the condition was assigned.
2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:Only if that ship remains on the table due to the Simultaneous Fire Rule.
Arguably, not even then. 'after the attack has resolved' might mean 'after the entire timing chart has been completely resolved for that attack'.
We don't know until it gets FAQed.
15 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Arguably, not even then. 'after the attack has resolved' might mean 'after the entire timing chart has been completely resolved for that attack'.
We don't know until it gets FAQed.
I think @emeraldbeacon was assuming you'd assume the ship would stay on the table due to it not having activated yet this combat phase and it was destroyed by the same pilot skill ship.
In this case the defending ship is "destroyed", not removed from the table as it has not activated yet during its pilot skill activation of the combat phase, the attack is now resolved, and the condition card is assigned. If the attacking player has another ship at the same pilot skill that has yet to attack they may now do so and they may target the harpooned ship. If the defender leaves a critical hit result uncancelled during this attack the condition card will trigger and resolve. If no uncancelled critical results are left or there was no other ship for the opposing player to activate the defending player now activates his ship, performs his attack(s), and is then removed from the playspace. His ship was destroyed before the condition card was assigned and, therefore, the condition does not trigger due to being removed from the playspace (as that is not the trigger for the condition).
Example 1 :
Luke is playing a match against Matt. Luke has Miranda Doni (PS8) on the table and Matt has Lt. Kestral and Backdraft (both with Adaptability to PS8). Matt has initiative for the match.
Miranda Doni has only 3 hull remaining at the start of the combat phase.
Matt has initiative at PS8 so he goes first.
Matt activates Lt. Kestral who has range and lock to attack Miranda with Harpoon missiles.
Matt declares his attack and rolls 4 natural hit results.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Luke deals 3 damage cards to Miranda. Mirands is now destroyed as her number of damage cards is equal to her hull value.
Miranda is not removed from the table because she is also PS8 and has not yet attacked this round.
Because the attack hit and has now resolved Miranda is assigned the Harpooned! condition card.
Matt now activates Backdraft who has Miranda at Range 2 in his auxiliary arc.
Matt rolls 2 blank results and adds one critical hit result from Backdraft's pilot ability. Backdraft does not have a target lock so the 2 blank results remain unmodified.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Miranda's defense die cancels the one critical hit result in the attack pool.
No uncancelled critical hit results remain so the Harpooned! condition card cannot trigger.
Matt has no more ships at PS8 to activate.
Luke now goes to PS8 combat and activates Miranda.
Miranda performs and resolves an attack.
Once the attack resolves Miranda is removed from the playspace as she was previously destroyed by Lt. Kestral's attack early in the phase.
Harpooned! condition card cannot trigger.
Example 2 :
Luke is playing a match against Matt. Luke has Miranda Doni (PS8) on the table and Matt has Lt. Kestral and Backdraft (both with Adaptability to PS8). Matt has initiative for the match.
Miranda Doni has only 3 hull remaining at the start of the combat phase.
Matt has initiative at PS8 so he goes first.
Matt activates Lt. Kestral who has range and lock to attack Miranda with Harpoon missiles.
Matt declares his attack and rolls 4 natural hit results.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Luke deals 3 damage cards to Miranda. Mirands is now destroyed as her number of damage cards is equal to her hull value.
Miranda is not removed from the table because she is also PS8 and has not yet attacked this round.
Because the attack hit and has now resolved Miranda is assigned the Harpooned! condition card.
Matt now activates Backdraft who has Miranda at Range 2 in his auxiliary arc.
Matt rolls 2 hit results and adds one critical hit result from Backdraft's pilot ability.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Miranda's defense die cancels the one hit result in the attack pool and leaves one hit and one critical hit uncancelled.
The Harpooned! condition card can trigger due to the uncancelled critical hit result.
There are no ships at Range 1 so Miranda suffers 1 facedown damage and discards the condition.
Luke then deals Miranda 1 additional facedown and 1 additional faceup damage card to resolve the deal damage step of the attack.
Matt has no more ships at PS8 to activate.
Luke now goes to PS8 combat and activates Miranda.
Miranda performs and resolves an attack.
Once the attack resolves Miranda is removed from the playspace.
Example 3 :
Luke is playing a match against Matt. Luke has Miranda Doni (PS8) on the table and Matt has Lt. Kestral and Backdraft (both with Adaptability to PS8). Matt has initiative for the match.
Miranda Doni has only 3 hull remaining at the start of the combat phase.
Matt has initiative at PS8 so he goes first.
Matt activates Lt. Kestral who has range and lock to attack Miranda with Harpoon missiles.
Matt declares his attack and rolls 4 natural hit results.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Luke deals 3 damage cards to Miranda. Mirands is now destroyed as her number of damage cards is equal to her hull value.
Miranda is not removed from the table because she is also PS8 and has not yet attacked this round.
Because the attack hit and has now resolved Miranda is assigned the Harpooned! condition card.
Matt now activates Backdraft who has Miranda at Range 2 in his primary arc.
Matt rolls 2 hit results and cannot adds a critical hit result from Backdraft's pilot ability as he is attacking from his primary arc.
Luke rolls Miranda's defense die and gets one natural evade result.
Miranda's defense die cancels the one hit result in the attack pool and leaves one hit result uncancelled.
The Harpooned! condition card cannot trigger as there are no uncancelled critical hit result.
Luke then deals Miranda 1 facedown damage card to resolve the deal damage step of the attack.
Miranda was already destroyed by Lt. Kestral so the damage card applied that exceeded her hull value does not trigger the Harpooned! condition card as she was already destroyed.
Matt has no more ships at PS8 to activate.
Luke now goes to PS8 combat and activates Miranda.
Miranda performs and resolves an attack.
Once the attack resolves Miranda is removed from the playspace as she was previously destroyed by Lt. Kestral's attack early in the phase.
Harpooned! condition card cannot trigger.
In short, it's definitely an issue and I'm not sure why I was being contrarian about it.
I noticed it a couple of months ago:
I have to correct my previous too-long-to-read post as I didn't read the full text of the rules reference (chiefly the red text below):
" Simultaneous Attack Rule (page 17, RR)
During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed. If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed . Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area .
While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active.
After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack."
This means that, in Examples 1 & 3 I previously gave: after Miranda's opportunity to attack she is destroyed, triggers and resolves the Harpooned! condition card(s), and is then removed from the play area.
So, if you're flying in formation and have the same PS as your enemy's harpoon missile carrier(s) it'd be best for you to have initiative to save your friendly's from excessive splash damage as you blow up...in this one specific scenario...
Harpoon Missile here for reference. It indicates that a condition is applied "after attack hits and is also resolved".
We go to the timing chart to figure out at what point is an attack resolved.
It appears that an attack is resolved by step 8/9? Since the table allows abilities that trigger after attacking to trigger, the assumption that attack has happened and is completely resolved (if it is not completely resolved, it is probably the first attack of a two-part attack as seen in the timing chart).
Hopefully we get a more comprehensive faq on Harpoon Missiles soon and a nerf. Meanwhile, destroyed ships still get the condition applied (the ability to apply a condition is triggered once the attack hits between step 6-7) and then it is applied in step 8 as an ability that does not perform an attack.
When the ship is removed at step 10, the harpoon explodes... <boom>
As you're referencing the attack timing flowchart I believe the common presumption is that the "attack is resolved" with the conclusion of step 10. In the case of simultaneous fire the ship will not be removed in step 10 as it will not be perceived by the gamestate as "destroyed" per above FAQ entry.
If, indeed, the attack is resolved before you exit the attack timing flowchart than this whole question is rendered irrelevant. But if an attack is not considered resolved until the conclusion/resolution of step 10 then the question is valid.
I guess, what I am saying, is we cannot truly answer the Harpooned! trigger to be assigned until we know if "after attacking" = "after the attack resolves" or if "after the attack resolves" refers to after completing step 10.
My interpretation was that "after the attack resolves" meant after the completion of step 10, I hadn't even stopped to consider that it could be during step 8/9 as the wording "after attacking" was not used. The rationale here is that, baring simultaneous fire intrusions, if you destroy a ship of a lower PS than the active ship or a ship that has already activated this phase, you'd kill the ship with the Harpoon Missile outright and would miss out on the extra damage of the condition card going off. If the intent was for the Harpooned! condition card to always be applied when the attack hits I don't see why anyone would've decided on "after the attack resolves" over "after attacking" as a timing trigger...
Yup. The card really needs FAQ to confirm when they actually meant it to work.
Not to mention that the rules around destruction and removal of ships also need clarifying, as they're directly contradictory in different sections.
IMHO, "If the attacks hits" means "just before step 7". "If the attacks hits and after the attack resolves" means "step 8".
I think this was added to make sure that the hapooned condition is not applied before step 7 and then would be triggered by the missile attack.
But a better wording would have been "After attacking, if the attack hits". See Plasma torpedoes.
If the attack hits is the trigger. After the attack resolves is the resolution timing.
9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Yup. The card really needs FAQ to confirm when they actually meant it to work.
Not to mention that the rules around destruction and removal of ships also need clarifying, as they're directly contradictory in different sections.
I blame Tel Trevura, he messed this all up.
8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:If the attack hits is the trigger. After the attack resolves is the resolution timing.
We can all agree to this - now we just need to know what the karabast "after the attack resolves" means...and if it means "after attacking" I really want to know why the developers didn't just use that wording, it's half as many words! Less ink, less cost, thus more profit for Mickey Mouse!
That's why I assume it doesn't mean that.
I assume they meant for it to only be applied after the ship is definitely NOT being removed due to that attack, so as to avoid the possibility of a harpoon killing a ship and dealing splash damage off the same attack.