Just to get one thing clear: I'm a huge Thrawn fan. So when they released him, I a. freaked out, and b. eagerly awaited crushing Rebel scum with a calm, measured playstyle iconic of the Grand Admiral. This lasted right up until list building. I just can't find any Thrawn fleet I'm satisfied with even bringing to the table. After thinking on it, these are the fundamental problems I have with Thrawn.

1. He's a lot like Tarkin.

The comparison is natural; both enhance your entire fleet's command experience with no downside except their sizable price tags. This is an ominous sign for our cunning Chiss admiral, because Tarkin's price alone is a major deterrent, and he doesn't get played much competitively. Not really hard proof of inadequacy, just worth noting.

2. He won't give you the command you most want.

Why? Because you should ideally already have that one. Instead, you'll get your second choice. Already, some ships aren't too thrilled about this. With a single Nav token banked, your Interdictor probably doesn't care about much save repairing. The Quasar usually feels the same way about squadrons. Okay, but what about the ISD? The VSD? The Arquitens?

3. Most of the exceptions mentioned above want to nav. You don't need to spend 34 points on a commander for amazing, cheap maneuverability.

You can spend 23 instead, on Jerjerrod. He'll outmaneuver that fleetwide nav command of Thrawn's. Your Arqs can concentrate fire. Your ISDs and VSDs can push squadrons and make ridiculous turns. Raiders and Gladiators have Ozzel for similar, speed-related reasons.

4. Thrawn encourages flexibility and having multiple forms of fighting in a game that doesn't like these things.

400 points is the limit. You'll have trouble committing to more than two different distinct types of threat before you run out of room. You know how you can never quite fit everything you want into a Sloane list? Try that with 10 points less. I would even go so far as to say no major archetypes are built to have more than two approaches to winning (don't confuse that with matchup-specific strategies): examples include Double ISDs, GH aces, MSU fleets, Sloane, Bomber lists, and MC80 strategic Flotilla Spam. Maybe Thrawn will offer more diversity, but he's going against what I view as some fundamental principles of both fleet-building and playing.

5. If you guess wrong, you won't get optimal use out of him.

Tarkin isn't necessarily better than Thrawn, but he has two major advantages: his tokens stack with command dials, and they are handed out on a round-by-round basis. Thrawn needs foresight; not just to round two, but to round four or even five. Otherwise, you're spamming him for certain commands for only three rounds, which only seems like the best option if neither of the two commands you'll have is navigate (see number 3.) It's not just difficult to see that far ahead; against an equally skilled opponent, pulling it off with any degree of reliability seems an almost superhuman feat. To be fair, you can at least field a variety of commands.

So what do you need to make him work?

Obviously he needs to work better than Tarkin, Jerrjerod or Ozzel in your fleet (and the other guys & gal(s?) too.) The implication of this is nav won't be a crucial top priority. A tall order for a commander whose main talent is being a generalist/multitasker. Which means his fleet needs to be able to benefit from his non-nav related multitasking. It needs to have a strategy that works better than a "skew fleet" approach. And having Jedi-like powers of prediction won't hurt either.

Best ship:

A comms net Gozanti! It can use one command and pass the other as a token (can't fit 2 tokens at any time.) And that's actually pretty cool. Maybe not the 34 points kinda cool, but still...

Edit: You can’t token the Thrawn dial. (Thanks for catching that, Dras.?)Still seems like a nice combo with a squadron dial, or even CF.

Best suited to play him:

Thrawn himself, naturally. The card seems to have been made for use in Thrawn's personal "mini-me" fleet.

Congratulations if you read all that, thanks for your time. Am I hopelessly, ridiculously off, and have inflicted a flame thread upon myself? Have I completely misinterpreted the point of the esteemed Grand Admiral? Or are you in agreement? Commentary/critiques/opinions are eagerly awaited!

Note:

Only the Command Set dial can be turned into a Token.

The Thrawn-Given Dial cannot be turned into a Token.

(This is because you can only turn a dial into a token on revealing it, and you don't reveal the Thrawn Dial during the activaton)

I do agree that the generalist nature of Thrawn's ability could be a weakness when it comes to competitive events. Thematically I think it is quite suitable and I look forward to running him often. The kind of fleet I am looking forward to using with Thrawn is also something of a generalist fleet, with a couple Gozantis, an ISD, some fighters, and some other combat ship. I don't know that it would be a better choice to use Thrawn than Motti or another admiral in truth, but I don't really care!

I've been wrestling with this one myself. I love Thrawn, and though I'd have designed him differently, I think this one captures his flavor just fine.

So, what to use him for? MSU fleet to get the most uses out of his extra dial (likely CF's and/or Navs at that point)
Squadron heavy fleet? Run a bunch of other commands, or have one of each of the non-squadron commands?
Heavy hitters with a couple of escorts? Two ISD's with two small ships taking advantage of extra CF and Nav commands?

It's not so simple. I think most of all, Thrawn will favor a player who can go in with a definitive plan, execute that plan, and modify it on the fly without losing its integrity.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

1. He's a lot like Tarkin.

But cheaper, and more potent .

2. He won't give you the command you most want.

What if you thrawn 3 navs and use your dials for flexibility? Does this cut down onnthe requirement to mind read?

3. Most of the exceptions mentioned above want to nav. You don't need to spend 34 points on a commander for amazing, cheap maneuverability.

JJ helps with yaw, Ozzel helps with speed changes, but neither can do both of those and something else. Thrawn is still a unique animal.

4. Thrawn encourages flexibility and having multiple forms of fighting in a game that doesn't like these things.

Imo the greatest skill in the game is knowing when you need to nav and when you dont. Some ships absolutely get locked into navs when they would love other commands, and some ships get locked out of navs because they need squads. Thrawns ability to double dial is potent because it takes the guess work out of 3 critical turns.

5. If you guess wrong, you won't get optimal use out of him.

Set 3 navs until you get comfortable.

So what do you need to make him work?

Thrawn boosts skew fleets too. CF and ET ON Demo. Squad and CF on BTvenger. Nav and squad on a quasar. These are all huge buffs to critical Imperial arsenal.

Best ship:

A comms net Gozanti! Use thrawn navs, and they work as you intended.

Best suited to play him:

Anyone .

My thoughts added in there. I know i have tested him in my 2+3 and really really liked it.

I've played with Thrawn a bit myself as well. Being able to do a Nav/CF wombo combo is brutal and wonderful with Raiders and Arq's. Same with Nav/Squads with QF, ISD or Goz. (And if you wanna get really crazy, bank a nav token on a speed 1 Slicer goz turn 1. Turn two, Thrawn him to speed 3 and watch him slice and dice squad dials away forever.)

In some limited fleet set ups, I could see Nav/Repair, Repair/Squad, or CF/Repair being useful as well.

I mean ****, look at Interdictors, now they can toss an extra dice AND still repair, which boosts their combat power output. Which makes ISD / Dictor or double Dictor lists more viable in my opinion.

If you wanted, you could Squad/Squad and surprise, now you're activating more one squad than someone may expect. (Token ship dial, use Thrawn dial.)

Point is, Thrawn allows for so much more open ended list building for Imperials.

Frankly, I think he's going to be pretty amazing just from combining him with Wulf Yularen and an ISD.

Pre-game: Use Thrawn to set 3 engineering commands.
Turn 1: Bank engineering token.

Play your game like normal, only now you can basically spend 6 engineering points for free... on THREE turns.

That ISD will be difficult to bring down.

It's an interesting premise you have, Jabbawookie, and certainly deserves some considered analysis. You make a lot of good points, but the one I'll comment on is this, because I think you've got it slightly backwards:

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

4. Thrawn encourages flexibility and having multiple forms of fighting in a game that doesn't like these things.

400 points is the limit. You'll have trouble committing to more than two different distinct types of threat before you run out of room. You know how you can never quite fit everything you want into a Sloane list? Try that with 10 points less. I would even go so far as to say no major archetypes are built to have more than two approaches to winning (don't confuse that with matchup-specific strategies): examples include Double ISDs, GH aces, MSU fleets, Sloane, Bomber lists, and MC80 strategic Flotilla Spam. Maybe Thrawn will offer more diversity, but he's going against what I view as some fundamental principles of both fleet-building and playing.

There's nothing inherent to the structure of Armada that discourages flexibility and multiple forms of fighting. It's true that as you point out, in 400 points it can be difficult to fit multiple different threats into a list. Absolutely true. But it can be done - and Thrawn opens up the possibilities, not restricts them. Furthermore, matchup-specific strategies are actually his strongest point, so don't discount that. You can vary up your commands and needs depending on what you're facing. Flying a fleet where you are predestined to use the same commands over and over locks you into a pattern that may work most of the time, but also dooms you to fail if you meet your fleet's "hard" counter. Thrawn allows you to vary your battle plan from encounter to encounter, flexing to counter the battle style of what you're facing.

I do think he's going to require a high skill level to use well - both in list design and execution. Using him will require people to ask exactly the questions you've asked. But I think he's going to really benefit tournament players by allowing them to consistently mitigate tough matchups while still executing well against good matchups.

He is also really good with Victories. Them being able to engineer+ whatever else helps keep them in the fight for much longer. And of course, ISD’s Love to squad/Nav together, it lets them do beautiful things

Bear in mind my point isn’t “Thrawn doesn’t work,” but “what makes Thrawn better than [insert admiral] in a fleet?” If he were priced closer to Ozzel and Jerjerrod, I would judge him on the same footing. But he needs to be worth JJ and half a flotilla. And if you use him solely for nav, or to facilitate nav, I think JJ + the tokens that should usually be banked round one + 9 points is a generally superior combination. I hope I’m not being too harsh on the blue guy. He’s not even out yet, after all.

@Maturin That’s a very interesting angle. A lack of a distinct strength does mean a lack of an obvious weakness, a powerful trait I hadn’t considered.

@The Jabbawookie , I think you have great points, but your perspective on some of them is not agreeable.

Thrawn is literally about DOUBLE DIALS during the 3 or 4 combat turns. Youre right: Sometimes, thats just conc fire + nav. But, not all the time. It could be squads + conc fire, conc fire + repair. .. Or heaven forbid, something even more planned out than that, different dials on different turns.
Not only that, but with repair or conc fire, this is pure mathematical efficiency.

To that end, 9 points more for that flexibility is acceptable compared to Moffy J, who also requires a shield lost usually.

The biggest problem with Thrawn I think is flavor disconnect: We expected Thrawn to be very strategic. We expected a certain playstyle; not to be told the whole game is supposed to be Thrawn strategic. (Its also not. There are simpler ways of playing the game and not so simple. Don't get a hard-on for being more difficult than Xwing.) Instead what we got was something even more general than Tarkin. It turns out, the designers designed it so that WE are the strategist... not Thrawn. And frankly for myself and some others, we don't role-play or self-identify with the blue skinned guy enough to broach the logical leap that is - Thrawn should = you.

--

The type of lists that want Thrawn/double dials:

No squadron lists using repair vs mass squads.
VSD lists needing Conc + repair or Nav, or Squads + conc.
Arquitens lists, conc nav
Crazy multi role ship + squads lists. Ala 3 Gladiators commanding squads. (Holy hek this is funny.)

--

Do I think its an efficient and good card? Yes.
Do I think think its a good deesign and not boring? No. But that might change with more playtesting. I currently really don't like the design for its boringness.

Okay. After some thought, I’ve created a Thrawn list. You’ve all made some excellent points, and the least I can do is give him a chance at my FLGS this Thursday, and see what happens. Any feedback is appreciated.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/266674-thrawn/

It will be interesting because i dont think he will add a lot to the current standard of 5 flotillas and one combat ship. I think he will benefit 3+ shooters.

Well I found him pretty useful to throw around CF commands or Squadron commands in a heavy squad list. Because it allows them to go for other commands they may need such as the nav or a needed repair, while still being able to either add a die to a shot, or every single ship in the fleet being guaranteed to activate a squad, so you could well fit an ISD1 to be a brawler, and fly it like one, but it’ll still activate 4 squadrons, no matter what. I think Thrawn is incredible

4 hours ago, scipio83 said:

Frankly, I think he's going to be pretty amazing just from combining him with Wulf Yularen and an ISD.

Pre-game: Use Thrawn to set 3 engineering commands.
Turn 1: Bank engineering token.

Play your game like normal, only now you can basically spend 6 engineering points for free... on THREE turns.

That ISD will be difficult to bring down.

This!

Everyone agrees that Motti is the imperial base line every imperial Commander has to be judged against before being included in a fleet. Now, think about Thrawn dialing in 3 repairs. That are at least 6 shields in total for a ISD or VSD - or 3 shields even on small ships. Yes, on the one hand this involves more of a bit of being situational, but on the other hand it can be more than twice as effective as Motti.

There was a time when I agreed with you. I could not come up with a fleet that is optimal for Thrawn. Then I started to simply include him for testing purposes. After that I included him in IN EVERY SINGLE LIST of mine that does not scream for another Commander. And I never ever dial in the same command thrice. The flexibility he gives is unbelievable. Kudos to @JJs Juggernaut for designing that one. Playing Thrawn involves a lot of additional decisions and gives the game therefore an additional tactical layer. It is for me not only the most interesting Commander to play, but also a strong one - and that I say as someone who does not like Zahn's character especially and plays normally rebels.

With my current 2 ISD list, Thrawn brings me much needed command flexibility in the critical turns 3,4 and 5. Currently I am looking at 1 x CF and 2 x Repair on Thrawn's dials with Nav/Squad on the normal dials. Paired with Relentless you have a very command efficient ISD. The second ship will probably carry Chimaera as it's title as the Avenger/BT hype dies down.

When you start looking at Thrawn combined with other upgrades, he really is a very attractive proposition as Admiral.

8 hours ago, scipio83 said:

Frankly, I think he's going to be pretty amazing just from combining him with Wulf Yularen and an ISD.

Pre-game: Use Thrawn to set 3 engineering commands.
Turn 1: Bank engineering token.

Play your game like normal, only now you can basically spend 6 engineering points for free... on THREE turns.

That ISD will be difficult to bring down.

Sure, but BTAvenger can easily onehit it off a double arc or with squads attacking first. Idk about your meta, but in ours you need to be ready for that.

8 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

With my current 2 ISD list, Thrawn brings me much needed command flexibility in the critical turns 3,4 and 5. Currently I am looking at 1 x CF and 2 x Repair on Thrawn's dials with Nav/Squad on the normal dials. Paired with Relentless you have a very command efficient ISD. The second ship will probably carry Chimaera as it's title as the Avenger/BT hype dies down.

When you start looking at Thrawn combined with other upgrades, he really is a very attractive proposition as Admiral.

Interesting, you split your commands into Thrawn Commands and Ship Commands, which rationalises it to a point where it becomes playable. I like it.

My intuition would be that Thrawn works best for ships that really want to be doing 2 things. The ships that jump to mind are our battleship/carrier hybrids, so primarily ISDs and VSDs. Toss 3 squadron commands on your Thrawn card and you can spam nav/CF on your main ships?

50 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Interesting, you split your commands into Thrawn Commands and Ship Commands, which rationalises it to a point where it becomes playable. I like it.

As opposed to...? How else would you play it? Of course you need to split your commands into ship and Thrawn commands- unless you just want to imitate Leia/Tarkin and give up your dial for a token, in which case why are you playing Thrawn?

Just now, MandalorianMoose said:

As opposed to...? How else would you play it? Of course you need to split your commands into ship and Thrawn commands- unless you just want to imitate Leia/Tarkin and give up your dial for a token, in which case why are you playing Thrawn?

Free and easy, shoot from the hip style. It hadnt occured to me to designate some commands as Thrawn commands and so never set them with your ship dials. Engineering is a good one as it quite often tends to be required fleet wide, although unlike Pete I would add squadron to that if you have a fleet without dedicated carriers, a Glad fleet for instance. Demo with Jonus suddenly becomes more attractive as Thrawn allows for squadron activations in turn 2+3 without preventing the Gladiators from concentrating on their positioning or damage with navs and concentrate fires, with engineering turn 4 on the way out of dodge.

Just a question. I don't have FAQs available to my right now, and can't recall if it was recently dealt with.

Does Thrawn allow you to double-dial; ie. use a ship's own Nav dial in addition to a Nav dial from Thrawn, allowing an ISD to turn like a Raider (2x2yaw), or adding two dice with double Concentrated Fire, or 2x Engineering pionts to repair, or activating double the Squadron-value number of squadrons, for the ultimate Alpha strike from a Quasar Fire with Flight Controllers?

Just now, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Just a question. I don't have FAQs available to my right now, and can't recall if it was recently dealt with.

Does Thrawn allow you to double-dial; ie. use a ship's own Nav dial in addition to a Nav dial from Thrawn, allowing an ISD to turn like a Raider (2x2yaw), or adding two dice with double Concentrated Fire, or 2x Engineering pionts to repair, or activating double the Squadron-value number of squadrons, for the ultimate Alpha strike from a Quasar Fire with Flight Controllers?

NOOOOOOOO! Finally FAQ'd p5

Q: Can a ship resolve the effect of a command by spending multiple matching command dials or command tokens?

A: No. A ship may only resolve a command by spending one command dial, one command token, or one command dial and one matching command token.

What he does do though is provide squadron commands that cannot be Slicer tooled or comm noised away.

Also this fun little combo- a pursuant quasar in a Thrawn list can perform three separate commands in a single round

27 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Free and easy, shoot from the hip style. It hadnt occured to me to designate some commands as Thrawn commands and so never set them with your ship dials. Engineering is a good one as it quite often tends to be required fleet wide, although unlike Pete I would add squadron to that if you have a fleet without dedicated carriers, a Glad fleet for instance. Demo with Jonus suddenly becomes more attractive as Thrawn allows for squadron activations in turn 2+3 without preventing the Gladiators from concentrating on their positioning or damage with navs and concentrate fires, with engineering turn 4 on the way out of dodge.

Yup- this is pretty much exactly how to play him- to let your ships pull double duty while also clearing up your command stacks and making it even easier to set ship dials, as you now only have 3 commands to worry about choosing from rather than 4