I have been thinking about how spell scrolls might work in the Genesys system, and who could read them. I have brainstormed a few ideas

1. All scrolls are a one use item
2. If you don't have the relevant magic skill, increase the difficulty of the spell by 2 (?)
3. Assuming you have the relevant magic skill to cast the particular spell
   

• using the scroll and allows you to cast the spell at a reduced difficulty, or
• using the scroll allows you to cast the spell at a higher difficulty, but without the advantage requirements, or
• The scroll just adds a quality to the spell for free or at a reduced cost.

Has anybody put any thought into this?

5 hours ago, RagingJim said:

I have been thinking about how spell scrolls might work in the Genesys system, and who could read them. I have brainstormed a few ideas

scrolls could be "Magical Implements" ?

5 hours ago, RagingJim said:

1. All scrolls are a one use item

with magical ink vanishing from the scroll ? or the scroll burning itself up ? does one really need a magic skill to activate such items or is a knowledge skill enough ?

how about non-magical (non-vanishing) spell scrolls (ie. the spell is formulated on the scroll ready for the caster to read out loud) ? (eg. Magical Implements)

Magic Tomes are good magic implements too.

I would go with knowledge skill over magic skill for reading a scroll just for something different, especially if it’s a one use item.

For the simplest solution I would have a simple scroll reduce the difficulty of casting a spell by 1. The spell probably has to be chosen when purchasing but the actual benefit when casting:

Scroll (Simple)

2-600 gold depending on setting

Rarity 4-8 depending on setting.

When purchasing this scroll choose one spell. Use this Scroll to cast that spell once with the Knowledge skill, also reduce the difficulty to cast that spell by one when using the Scroll. After casting the spell using this Scroll the magic contained within the Scroll is consumed and no longer provides any benefit.

edit: 200 is probably a bit cheap, perhaps 500-800

Give a scroll a special effect that can be applied to a spell as a once off effect. The effect, which is unique, cannot be obtained normally.

I would say that a scroll should probably have a specific spell + additional effect combination, and allows a character to cast the spell using Knowledge rather than Magic.

Now, in D&D, scrolls are used most often to augment the limited number of spells casters have available to them throughout the day, but that isn't an issue here, so what role are scrolls filling?

1. Allowing a caster to cast a spell they know, but easier in some way.
2. Allowing a caster to cast a spell they don't know.
3. Allowing a non-caster to cast a spell. This could be in addition to the other two, allowing non-casters some limited access to magic.

Depending on which of those you are aiming for, we're looking at different types of scrolls:

For the first, some options:

• Casting the spell uses Knowledge instead of Magic, but does not cause 2 Strain damage.
• The difficulty of the spell is reduced by 1, or the casting gains some number of Boost dice added to it.

For the second:

• Use the scroll while casting a spell you know, but it allows a caster to add an additional effect they don't know to the spell at the usual cost of increasing difficulty.
• Cast a spell you don't know (possibly with particular additional effects added) at the difficulty that would normally be required to cast that spell combination.
• Possibly upgrade difficulty to represent the caster struggling with magics they are unfamiliar with.

For the third:

• Perform a Knowledge check to cast the spell + possible additional effects added on at the standard difficulty for that spell combination.
• Perform a Knowledge check to cast the spell, etc... (as above), but upgrade the difficulty by 1 (or more), to represent the danger of meddling with magic when untrained.
• Perform a Discipline check (to mimic Use Magic Device to some degree...exerting your own Willpower over the magic). May come with increased or upgraded difficulty.

For me, I think I would want scrolls to allow temporary access to effects the caster doesn't know, and would allow non-casters the chance to activate the scroll with an upgraded difficulty. For that, I might label each scroll as requiring a certain number of ranks in either a Magic skill, or an associated characteristic (not both), and the difficulty of the check gets upgraded once for each point by which the character activating the scroll is deficient.

So, I might have a:

Scroll of Fireball

Requires : Magic (Arcana, Divine, or Primal) 3 ranks

Difficulty : DDDD

Concentration : No

Base Spell : Attack

Additional Effects : Blast, Burn, Range

Damage 4; Range (Medium); Blast 3; Burn 3

If a non-caster tried casting Fireball, they would attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of DDDD, upgraded 3 times for not having ranks in Magic.

If a caster who can already cast Attack, and already knows the Burn and Range upgrades, they could cast the spell at a difficulty of DDDD, upgraded once for not already knowing Blast.

Scroll of Mage's Shield

Requires : Magic (Arcana or Divine) 2 ranks

Difficulty : DDD

Concentration : Yes

Base Spell : Barrier

Additional Effects : Empowered

Select one engaged target (this can be you). Until the end of your next turn, reduce all damage that would be dealt to you by 1 for each Success generated.

If a non-caster tried casting Mage's Shield, they would attempt a Knowledge check with a difficulty of DDD, upgraded twice for having zero ranks in Magic.

If a caster who could normally cast Barrier, but didn't know the Empowered effect, they could cast the spell at a reduced difficulty of DDD with one upgrade due to not knowing Empowered.

If the caster already cast cast Barrier, and knows Empowered, I think I would allow them to cast the spell without expending strain.

The problem lies in that players will want to copy the scroll.

19 minutes ago, GM Hooly said:

The problem lies in that players will want to copy the scroll.

“Well you see, after extensive research you discover that you need a quill made from the orange tail feather of a wekwek bird. The last time any population was documented was in the distant jungles of Honarula over a century ago, perhaps there’s someone making the 6 month trek you could join up with... those types are always looking for good guards for passing through Ogre country”

No, but a Narrative no.

28 minutes ago, GM Hooly said:

The problem lies in that players will want to copy the scroll.

This could be handled in a lot of different ways depending on how scrolls work in the setting. If applying D&D concepts, then being able to copy the skill would require a specific talent that allows you to create magic items.

{Edit:} Unless the system is using some form of Spellbook rules, copying scrolls isn't any different than creating them and really doesn't do anything for you. Someone has to make them in the first place and there has to be a market value in doing so.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

“Well you see, after extensive research you discover that you need a quill made from the orange tail feather of a wekwek bird. The last time any population was documented was in the distant jungles of Honarula over a century ago, perhaps there’s someone making the 6 month trek you could join up with... those types are always looking for good guards for passing through Ogre country”

for single use items, definitely as the spells energies must be hold in a complex mana-matrix outside of our normal 3d space-continuum, and only the orange tail feathers are magickal enough to accomplish that.

would someone be able to photocopy the spell-scroll and use it from a tablet ? maybe reduced to case #1 (from above) ?

or the case of how harry potter learned "Sectumsempra" from the scribbles (ie. side notes) of an old alchemy tome.

1 hour ago, Terefang said:

Would someone be able to photocopy the spell-scroll and use it from a tablet ? maybe reduced to case #1 (from above) ?

In an Urban Fantasy style game that would not only be "plausible" but pretty hilarious. Rolled threat could be all sorts of amusing things ranging from "the battery died" to "you dropped it and cracked the screen."

Going to run an Elder Scroll campaign soon, there I'll have the scrolls disintegrate after having been used.

In my game I was thinking about limiting the additional effects characters know for each spell they can cast, then giving them scrolls as treasure which they can cast or learn from, but haven't figured out how to limit dissemination. I don't want to give one character a scroll, have them learn it, then make copies for everyone.

Should scribing a scroll be locked behind a talent?

5 hours ago, yeti1069 said:

In my game I was thinking about limiting the additional effects characters know for each spell they can cast, then giving them scrolls as treasure which they can cast or learn from, but haven't figured out how to limit dissemination. I don't want to give one character a scroll, have them learn it, then make copies for everyone.

Should scribing a scroll be locked behind a talent?

I would make it an entire branch of magic. Give it a Skill (Rune) then have two new Spells, one for making scrolls and tomes the other for permanent Enhancement of Weapons

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I would make it an entire branch of magic. Give it a Skill (Rune) then have two new Spells, one for making scrolls and tomes the other for permanent Enhancement of Weapons

or call it "Artificing" ?

10 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I would make it an entire branch of magic. Give it a Skill (Rune) then have two new Spells, one for making scrolls and tomes the other for permanent Enhancement of Weapons

How would you structure that? I'm thinking I might just want to make a new talent to do this.

On 1/3/2018 at 0:24 AM, Richardbuxton said:

Magic Tomes are good magic implements too.

I would go with knowledge skill over magic skill for reading a scroll just for something different, especially if it’s a one use item.

This could be the impetus for Ritual Casting. Need a scroll/ tome with the spell and make an appropriate Knowledge check to cast the spell. Add a time component and a monetary cost for magic dust and scented candles and such. Boom, ritual caster.

I was thinking about this the other day too; I like using Knowledge instead of Magic. Scrolls are one time use. The spell is exactly as written - whatever difficulty is inherent to the combination of type/enhancements (essentially allowing a non-caster to cast a spell assuming they can read the language), with the standard 2 Strain cost.

For magic users, it reduces it to 1 Strain, and the difficulty of the spell is reduced: downgrade a number of dice = to Magic.

I hedge a bit on this last one though. But scrolls are quite difficult to come-by and produce.

On 3.1.2018 at 1:30 AM, RagingJim said:

I have been thinking about how spell scrolls might work in the Genesys system, and who could read them. I have brainstormed a few ideas

1. All scrolls are a one use item
2. If you don't have the relevant magic skill, increase the difficulty of the spell by 2 (?)
3. Assuming you have the relevant magic skill to cast the particular spell
   

• using the scroll and allows you to cast the spell at a reduced difficulty, or
• using the scroll allows you to cast the spell at a higher difficulty, but without the advantage requirements, or
• The scroll just adds a quality to the spell for free or at a reduced cost.

Has anybody put any thought into this?

Personally I think that scrolls have a spell stored into them. When scroll is used, magic is used. After that scroll is no more spell scroll. This is inline with normal convention that scroll is one time magic item. Probably in Genesys I'd make casting spells from scrolls easier than casting them normally.

This also solves the problem with copying scroll. You can copy a scroll, but that doesn't copy the magic stored to scroll.

I might do it so that casting spell from scroll allows user to cast a spell defined in scroll without the strain cost. After casting the scroll is destroyed. I might even make it so that spell is cast with knowledge skill instead of magic skill. Making scrolls would require a talent, and when making scroll character must cast the spell to scroll, which is kind of spell container. In that vein casting a spell from scroll should be easier than casting the actual spell.

Maybe anyone who reads, can cast a spell from scroll. This is setting dependant thing. How powerful and common are scrolls in setting used? Maybe scrolls are meant for common people, and real magic users can cast much more powerful spells. Maybe scrolls are relics from more powerful past, and are better than what magic users can do themself.

P.S. I love the idea about scrolls containing stuff which cannot be done with normal magic. Maybe magic scrolls are really powerful.

I am thinking that scrolls in Genesys should become a powerful item, not the general mass-market item they are in systems like D&D. I see a scroll as being an item a caster has made to allow the quick and easy casting of a spell. All of the Difficulty and Strain is handled in the creation of the scroll. The user simply has to "Activate" the scroll. Now this could be as complex as reading a long ritual, or as simple as uttering a trigger word. Personally, I like trigger word. Activating the scroll should be a Maneuver but cost no strain (or at most 1 strain) as you aren't actually casting it as much as releasing it (like breaking a rune tile to release the magic as another representation of a scroll). The difficulty of the Activation should be a fraction of the difficulty of the spell. Effectively the more "magic" in the spell, the more complex the trigger. However, it should be much easier than actually casting the spell on the fly - as that is the entire point of a scroll in the first place.

The activation of the scroll should be handled by a Knowledge check related to knowing how to read and activate magic. This could lead to different types of scrolls based on the magic involved (arcane, divine, primal). Especially if you classify "scrolls" as any form of single-use trigger item (such as single use rune-totem for primal or prayers sheets for divine, rune etched ceramic tiles, etc.). Thus you could have a series of Knowledge skills or a single Knowledge skill depending on how you want to handle it in the setting. Personally, I'd use different Knowledge skills linked to the type of magic. Then if you want a D&D-esque rogue-like "Use Magic Device" ability, you could create it as a Knowledge skill of its own only available via a Talent that allows you to use UMD to activate any scroll regardless of type of magic.

Thus you get highly useful items, but they need to be balanced with a high cost and rarity. Scrolls shouldn't be a mass-market item. From the "crafting" end, it should be very time consuming and costly to create scrolls, thus supporting their rarity.

Thoughts?

23 minutes ago, Khaalis said:

I am thinking that scrolls in Genesys should become a powerful item, not the general mass-market item they are in systems like D&D. I see a scroll as being an item a caster has made to allow the quick and easy casting of a spell. All of the Difficulty and Strain is handled in the creation of the scroll. The user simply has to "Activate" the scroll. Now this could be as complex as reading a long ritual, or as simple as uttering a trigger word. Personally, I like trigger word. Activating the scroll should be a Maneuver but cost no strain (or at most 1 strain) as you aren't actually casting it as much as releasing it (like breaking a rune tile to release the magic as another representation of a scroll). The difficulty of the Activation should be a fraction of the difficulty of the spell. Effectively the more "magic" in the spell, the more complex the trigger. However, it should be much easier than actually casting the spell on the fly - as that is the entire point of a scroll in the first place.

The activation of the scroll should be handled by a Knowledge check related to knowing how to read and activate magic. This could lead to different types of scrolls based on the magic involved (arcane, divine, primal). Especially if you classify "scrolls" as any form of single-use trigger item (such as single use rune-totem for primal or prayers sheets for divine, rune etched ceramic tiles, etc.). Thus you could have a series of Knowledge skills or a single Knowledge skill depending on how you want to handle it in the setting. Personally, I'd use different Knowledge skills linked to the type of magic. Then if you want a D&D-esque rogue-like "Use Magic Device" ability, you could create it as a Knowledge skill of its own only available via a Talent that allows you to use UMD to activate any scroll regardless of type of magic.

Thus you get highly useful items, but they need to be balanced with a high cost and rarity. Scrolls shouldn't be a mass-market item. From the "crafting" end, it should be very time consuming and costly to create scrolls, thus supporting their rarity.

Thoughts?

I like this. I think the knowledge to use a scroll is thematically and otherwise good solution. That also allow non magical characters to use scrolls, as long as they have enough knowledge. Personally I wouldn't put any strain cost to using scrolls, because of those are used in scroll creation. As long as rarity and price make sure they are not too readily available.

One option is also to have different kind of scrolls. Some scrolls might require e.g. full strain cost payment when cast, or some ingredient usage, or other such things, because they were not made properly, or are partially incomplete. Some scroll might work only with blood sacrifice, etc. The narrative options are limitless.

On 3.1.2018 at 1:31 PM, GM Hooly said:

The problem lies in that players will want to copy the scroll.

I don't see this as huge problem. After all, you can take a photocopy of a iPad, but that copy is not iPad. Very much depends on how magic and scrolls are explained in setting. If magic scroll is just words in paper, then copy would be easy and scrolls common anyway. If magic is separated from the words in scroll, and the scroll is kind of avatar of the magic, then copying is not that simple. Maybe actually copying scroll requires the magic of the original scroll to triggered, so original is destroyed.

If PC wants to copy (or create) a scroll, I'd allow that if they have the ability to create a scroll in first place. Having a scroll to copy would give a boost die to creating a new scroll. Other totally different, and setting dependent, thing is how hard scroll creation would in first place.

Cool. Mine was a rhetorical question for the record.

How would you handle casting a spell from a scroll given that there are no "actual" spells?

I think how I am going to handle "scrolls" in my Fantasy and Urban Fantasy settings is going to be more along the lines of documented rituals and complex incantations in a sense that help "tie-down and anchor" the powers used in magic, giving them permanence in this realm. And ditch the whole D&D premise one "one-shot" spell machines.

These will be the way that magical implements are crafted, as well as magical effects that are either too complex for use as a magical action, or I don't want to the PCs to have the ability to pop off every round as an action.

But can cover things like "wards" that will give the object of the ritual some sort of magical protection or immunity, as long as the material used to contain the magical powers persists. And obviously the more expensive and rare the material used...the longer they will last before succumb to the forces of the spell and crumble and break.

Take for instance a Demon Ward, which requires the formation of a circle and seven distinct sigils around the area to be warded. The PCs can attempt to perform the spell with simple chalk in the rented room in the Lusty Maiden Tavern and Inn, and it might last for a few rounds at most this way. But if the instead used the wax of the rare Ketabrula tree from far away Ithasia, they might be able to keep the ward up for the entire night, possibly even a entire day or two depending on how thickly they melt the wax.

And obviously, as any truly sage caster knows, a ward forged out of metals and gems provides the very best in protection, and if the ores are pure and free from contaminants, the ward may operate for years on end without failure.

It is even rumored that the fabled Catori Priest of the Windless Isles use squid ink upon their own bodies to set their Wards in place, touching up the sigils as time passes to keep them thick and vibrantly colored.

9 hours ago, kkuja said:

One option is also to have different kind of scrolls. Some scrolls might require e.g. full strain cost payment when cast, or some ingredient usage, or other such things, because they were not made properly, or are partially incomplete. Some scroll might work only with blood sacrifice, etc. The narrative options are limitless.

See, from my personal view, these are basically ideas for Threat and Despair results rolled during scroll activation.

On 5.1.2018 at 7:36 PM, GM Hooly said:

Cool. Mine was a rhetorical question for the record.

How would you handle casting a spell from a scroll given that there are no "actual" spells?

I would probably make scrolls spells with predefined effects. The effect more defined than in Genesys alternate magic rules. For example, Scroll named Fireball might contain arcane Attack, with blast, fire, and range effects. Or scrolls would be mechanically be more similar to weapons, and user might buy additional effects with advantages. And scrolls would be used with knowledge check, and difficulty would be predefined, and probably easier than actually casting of similar magic effect. And there would probably be no strain cost. So, I think scrolls might be more like conventional spells, and the actual magic system more open ended. But these are just fast thoughts about this matter, which may be totally worthless. But, there are no hard limits to what can be done. Every group can, and should, make a customizations which best suite them.

Also, Palomarus' idea about scrolls not being one shot spells is interesting. And lead to another idea, where spells are one shot boosts to spells (e.g. boost die to attack spell, or even upgrade). Or scroll could for example give a free blast effect to arcane attacks spell.

On 6.1.2018 at 1:14 AM, Khaalis said:

See, from my personal view, these are basically ideas for Threat and Despair results rolled during scroll activation.

That is one good option. Another is to use those to customize scrolls (not saying a good option, just an option).