As the title suggests, I am really, REALLY struggling with my Latari army. I know that as a novice I'm hardly likely to be winning many battles, but I'm getting hammered every single time. I don't mind losing games if I've put up a good fight, but it's not even a contest. It's got to the point I'm wondering if it's not just me being a rubbish player, but if it's also the elves not being all that good. The problems I'm having:

- They're crap at shooting. It says something when elven archers are actually worse than the undead ones. The archers damage output is so ridiculously low that they can't whittle down big units and can't wound small elite units either. Out of the other two ranged units, the scions can't get Precise unless you want to spend a quarter of your points on one unit, and Maegan can't get it at all. So things that get rerolls can't do any damage, and things that can do damage can barely hit.

- They're crap at combat. Now on paper they're lovely (I've managed to get Aliana up to Lethal 8, which needless to say smarted :P), but the problem is they have all the defences of wet tissue paper. Unless you wipe out the enemy on the charge, you will get mauled in the counter-attack. One horrible example was charging with my leonx and wiping out 75% of the enemy unit, and then just getting massacred the next turn.

- Death Grasp is an instant Game Over. Combined with the above defences, it might as well say "if cast on Latari, remove unit from the game."

- They can't get objectives. Again, in theory they should be able to run rings around your opponent and grab objectives, but in reality it's nearly impossible. Many scenarios are "Kill unit X" or "Reach this particular point." All my opponent has to do is make unit X their biggest unit , or park their biggest unit on top of the objective point, and I simply can't do anything.

Honestly, I'm finding the whole thing incredibly frustrating, and it's really demotivating me to play RW. With the amount of money and effort I've put into buying/painting my elves I don't want to drop them (even though now with hindsight I should have waited for Uthuk, but I desperately wanted to play), but it's getting to the point it's not much fun at all. I love RW and want to continue, but the constant curbstomping is getting out of hand. Am I just utterly terrible at the game, or are the elves underpowered compared with other factions? Either way, any advice (beyond git gud) to help me solve my problem?

Can you post one or two of your strongest lists? That could be a good starting point. Of course, how you play the list is also important, but not having seen you play, I'm not sure how easy it is for people to help you with that.

Also, deployment has usually been where I fail the most. Mobility often means you also get in your own way or out of position.

One question I would have is what are you playing against? Is there a common type of unit you have problems facing? High armor is a bane for elves (uthick have a similar issue as well)

To give Archers a punch in their attack try out the 3x2 with Meagan upgrade. Outside of that, the 2x1 equipped with fire Rune can add up some nice damage with the right runes since you can run them in numbers and they get a reroll on both attacks.

Everything dies quickly in this game, you kinda have to accept that. Elves are even more susceptible, so you do have to play defensively. Leonx have the ability to disengage quickly. That and pretty much everything on their dials should allow you to dictate when/how engagements play out.

The last thing I would suggest is to change it up. Play a ridiculous list, a game of cheese can help clear the head or even give you a fresh perspective. Run a full msu list with no upgrades. Build the largest unit you can and run every upgrade you can fit in it.

Good luck and have fun

3 hours ago, Xquer said:

The last thing I would suggest is to change it up. Play a ridiculous list, a game of cheese can help clear the head or even give you a fresh perspective. Run a full msu list with no upgrades. Build the largest unit you can and run every upgrade you can fit in it.

I think this is really solid advice. As a LEGO builder, I have found that limiting your resources greatly enhances creativity. In Runewars, when you run odd lists you wouldn't normally try out, it forces you to think about the tactics in a different way, which can only be helpful (even if you end up losing). You can figure out the things you like, and try to implement it into a more balanced army later.

What are your lists, and what were your opponents lists?

Did you engage and disengage favourably?

I've never been blown out playing the elves, but yes they are fragile, yes, high armor is tougher for them. But, they are extremely mobile, and you need to make that work for you. Hit flanks, don't get hit back, middle them by not closing in and getting hit after your early strike, etc.

23 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Can you post one or two of your strongest lists? That could be a good starting point. Of course, how you play the list is also important, but not having seen you play, I'm not sure how easy it is for people to help you with that.

Strongest list is a bit of a misnomer. Usually I take a Maegan, Aliana, a core of leonx, and play around with the points I have left over. The list I'm trying out next battle is the two characters, 2x3 leonx and 2x2 scions (going for the hammer and anvil strategy).

16 hours ago, Xquer said:

One question I would have is what are you playing against? Is there a common type of unit you have problems facing? High armor is a bane for elves (uthick have a similar issue as well)

It's pretty much entirely undead. My main opponent (ie the person I live with) plays undead, and two of the three other players in my nearest RW group also main undead. Their two units I struggle with are death knights (unless I kill them in the charge, they'll stampede over me), and the massive 3x3 block of reanimates.

Can you post an example list point by point, upgrade by upgrade? I know that elves have great potential with dispatch runner simultaneous orders and rallying starling plus optional fire rune. Maby try a unit of 2x2 archers with those things paired with some 1 tray scion units for blocking and leonx with moment of inspiration?

As for fighting with the undead. Reanimates without upgrades have very high initiative charges. Archers are most worth as blighting unit and death knight could be a biggest hammer they have or suicide rocked thats only goal is to reach your biggest unit as soon as possible in order to apply death grasp. For that you have scions in single trays to block of potential charges. Also try that combo i mentioned earlier with another deepwood archer but this time in 3x2 formation with support scion. Ist a real pain if you have to kill that healthy scion in your back rank in order to even start reducing your threat.a for ressurecting maro: put a pressure on him. he can eighter shoot at you or ressurect and if he ressurects he is vunerable. strike then. also for reanimate archers use aliana with ambush predator, sneak up form the flank and strike those archers when you will have the opportunity

I don't think you have a unit for unit counter to those Death Knights at all. I think your best bet is to delay and distract them by drawing them into terrain and feeding them a single tray scion or two. Maybe you'll have more of a chance once Darnati come out, but I'm not even sure about it then. In the meantime, would they be amenable to forgoing Death Knights since you don't have access to as many expansions as they do?

As for the rest, you should be able to Leonx charge his archers before they get a chance to shoot more than once, or possibly even at all. Wait until he places an archer unit, and then place your Leonx straight across the board. Or, use Aliana's ability to reposition the Leonx to line up with archers. No fancy tricks, no tactics. Turn 1 you march 4 at initiative 7 so that they shoot before you're in range. If you dial up a march 2 modifier, it's likely you can even contact them in turn 1, even though you'l take a panic for doing so. Then shred away.

The Reanimate block should be severely weakened by the time you get into melee. It's so slow that you should be able to get multiple archer shots on it before it has a chance to do anything. Use terrain to create channels that are too narrow for a 3-wide unit to pass through and force him to go around that terrain to get to your main units. Maybe try fortuna's dice on Maegan to get accuracy on a ranged attack and take out the unit upgrades that are giving you the most trouble. Lastly, it should be too hard to get flank charges on the reanimates if you can draw the knights away from protecting their flanks.

I hope those ideas help.

Yeah deathknights are horrible to face for elves. The high armor and the canceling the first mortal really takes the bite out of the elven options for attacks, so I get your frustration fighting them.

7 hours ago, Elliphino said:

I don't think you have a unit for unit counter to those Death Knights at all. I think your best bet is to delay and distract them by drawing them into terrain and feeding them a single tray scion or two.

I totally agree with this. DK are expensive. 55pts for the 3x2 and at that size they are going to throw more points on upgrades. A scion or two, maybe fertile soil in trade equals a win for you.

If they do have to be brought down, then you'll have to use numbers to your advantage. No one unit is going to handle a 3x2 for you. Use the various tools to apply banes like stun and blight to hamper thier options. These might not seem like much, but this fight will be a slow slug and small things add up. DK are a rough opponent but not invincible.

The one thing I'd add about the "delay and ignore the knights" tactic is that it means you will have to be very aggressively attacking the rest of his army to get the points to swing in your favor. I never want to simply concede 55 points to my opponent, but if you have to, it means you have to make up for it elsewhere.

I guess in this regard the Latari have a distinct advantage as in many scenarios you should be mobile enough to get to where you need to be to pick up objective tokens. You might want to make a significant bid for first player by coming in under 200 points so that you can have first pick of scenario. Giving up three to five points in your army so that you can be assured of picking up 20 or more points in objective tokens might be a fair trade for you.

Thanks so much for your help guys, it's seriously appreciated.

13 hours ago, Elliphino said:

I don't think you have a unit for unit counter to those Death Knights at all. I think your best bet is to delay and distract them by drawing them into terrain and feeding them a single tray scion or two. Maybe you'll have more of a chance once Darnati come out, but I'm not even sure about it then. In the meantime, would they be amenable to forgoing Death Knights since you don't have access to as many expansions as they do?

As for the rest, you should be able to Leonx charge his archers before they get a chance to shoot more than once, or possibly even at all. Wait until he places an archer unit, and then place your Leonx straight across the board. Or, use Aliana's ability to reposition the Leonx to line up with archers. No fancy tricks, no tactics. Turn 1 you march 4 at initiative 7 so that they shoot before you're in range. If you dial up a march 2 modifier, it's likely you can even contact them in turn 1, even though you'l take a panic for doing so. Then shred away.

The Reanimate block should be severely weakened by the time you get into melee. It's so slow that you should be able to get multiple archer shots on it before it has a chance to do anything. Use terrain to create channels that are too narrow for a 3-wide unit to pass through and force him to go around that terrain to get to your main units. Maybe try fortuna's dice on Maegan to get accuracy on a ranged attack and take out the unit upgrades that are giving you the most trouble. Lastly, it should be too hard to get flank charges on the reanimates if you can draw the knights away from protecting their flanks.

I hope those ideas help.

I usually have the scion deal with archers, with decent success. Since archers will always have at least a threat of 2, they only need to roll 2 hits on the dice to wipe out a tray of leonx. The scion, though slow, is more capable of shrugging off the hits to do the job of smacking the archers about.

Dealing with the reanimates is just a problem with target priority really; although I can whittle them down, Maro makes them stand up again. Each turn shooting at Maro is a turn not shooting the reanimates. I think I need to juggle and see what's works (though I did discover he doesn't like getting a moose to the face).

As for asking people not to take DK...well, it's not really fair on my opponent really. Plus I'll never get good at the game/win events if I can't practice and overcome a challenge!

40 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

You might want to make a significant bid for first player by coming in under 200 points so that you can have first pick of scenario. Giving up three to five points in your army so that you can be assured of picking up 20 or more points in objective tokens might be a fair trade for you.

I didn't actually consider this. It's a bit cheesy, but it might help.

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:01 AM, Parakitor said:

I think this is really solid advice. As a LEGO builder, I have found that limiting your resources greatly enhances creativity. In Runewars, when you run odd lists you wouldn't normally try out, it forces you to think about the tactics in a different way, which can only be helpful (even if you end up losing). You can figure out the things you like, and try to implement it into a more balanced army later.

As a LEGO builder, do you mean as profession or as a fun hobby, if you say profession I will cry and be so envious at the same time...

29 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

As a LEGO builder, do you mean as profession or as a fun hobby, if you say profession I will cry and be so envious at the same time...

You don't have to cry - it's just a hobby. I haven't sat down to really build something new in years. I did have an idea to make a Flesh Ripper, so I'll have to sit down and put some bricks together to see what I can come up with.

1 hour ago, Urvogel said:

I usually have the scion deal with archers, with decent success. Since archers will always have at least a threat of 2, they only need to roll 2 hits on the dice to wipe out a tray of leonx. The scion, though slow, is more capable of shrugging off the hits to do the job of smacking the archers about.

Just to emphasize, I think you stand a very good chance of getting your Leonx into melee with archers before they ever have a chance to shoot. In melee, archers roll just one red die and you should be able to reliably take out at least one tray before they have a chance to strike back, meaning there's only a remote chance of losing even just one Leonx rider, let alone two. Play with it a couple times and see what happens. If it doesn't work, you can tell me, "I told you so." But just for the record, the few times I've played as Daqan against Waiqar, I do this same thing with Oathsworn and my opponents are lucky if they ever shoot with any of their archers.

1 hour ago, Urvogel said:

Dealing with the reanimates is just a problem with target priority really; although I can whittle them down, Maro makes them stand up again.

This is also helpful information. You have an answers for Maro for sure, but I wouldn't bother your archers with him. For one thing, if your opponent is playing Maro well, that means keeping him at a safe distance from threats. If you are moving your archers up to deal with Maro, that means you are moving your archers into his kill zone... not at all where they want to be.

I recommend dealing with Maro by sending either a small unit of Leonx, or Alionna on an assassination mission. If you want to talk about making an opponent waste actions, wait until you watch your opponent struggle with the decision to sacrifice Maro to raise just two more trays, futilely try to move him out of the way instead of shooting or raising, or risk trying to shoot you at initiative 6... likely after you will already have charged him. Alionna can take Ambush predator making archers ignore her and his reanimate block and even knights should be easy enough to maneuver around for her.

1 hour ago, Urvogel said:

As for asking people not to take DK...well, it's not really fair on my opponent really. Plus I'll never get good at the game/win events if I can't practice and overcome a challenge!

Fair enough. Although I wouldn't worry about winning events just yet if you're thinking about dropping out of casual play because the games are mismatched.

1 hour ago, Urvogel said:

I didn't actually consider this. It's a bit cheesy, but it might help.

You have to play to your strengths and it's pretty clear that the Latari were designed as an army that has advantages in claiming objectives. Don't worry about "cheesy". It's part of the game and honestly Runewars Minis is probably currently the most balanced wargame on the market. If your opponent wants to cry, "Cheese!" just mutely point to his 3x2 Death Knights that are likely rocking, what? Duskblade and Combat Ingenuity or Column Tactics and Deathmist Banners?

I'm pretty confident you can experience more success if you give a couple new things a try.

Agree with dodge deathknights, honestly not great to engage as latari, even a 3x2 of archers can kill a tray... With ideal roles, not nearly enough damage. Cavalry can dish it, maybe kill 2 tray on a flank charge, but then you might get hit back.

Reanimates melt though, generally you want a good coordinated strike, hit em hard, twice in a round and they will reel, Maro or otherwise.

Archers are easy for leonx to play around with their late move/reform.

I find the true strength of the latari is their utility. A four block of archers with dispatch runner, simultaneous orders, and rallying starling can seriously help your army out. I find having a unit of leonx with triumphant cry to smash into enemies with moment of inspiration and then dispatch runner/rallying starling/moment of inspiration attack again is very powerful. Especially when you engage late in the turn. The leonx can do a 7 charge and then the archers can cause them to attack again at 8. This is two attacks with no rebuttal. Then next turn they attack again at 4, which not many units can compete with for speed, especially if you go first. 3 unanswered attacks on a unit should be hugely damaging.

Another huge strength is the scions with vicious roots. It removes all their boons and immobilizes! Even if they are at range (1-3).

A few things I have learned is:

Objectives don't always matter. If it is going to cost you your entire army to get the objective... just forget about it and focus on punishing your opponent.

Elves thrive on mind games. They have so many ways to charge and maneuver. If your opponent knows they cannot beat you in initiative with a charge they may cut their loses and dial in an attack for after you charge. Well you can then dial in a late charge at int 7 or 8 and hit after they attack.

There are many subtleties to Runewars you will pick up with time. Keep at it!

The two things the frustrated me most playing as Undead against elves were:

1)Maegan. Seriously, having her surge ability do 15 damage in an attack because terrain forces an army close to each other is maddening. As long as you don’t face massed Knights or Lancers, this is really effective and has a chance at harming the reanimate archers badly.

2) Wind Runes on archers. Undead having nothing except for Knights that can catch units using Wind Rune. The rest of the army has to sit back and let them approach. Try a 3x2 of archers with the support Scion and Wind Rune. Use some of the “Overgrow “upgrades in your army to charge that scion. You want a frustrated Undead player, watch as they try to pin down a unit doing a shift 1, shift 2, and a shift 2+reform (with 2 natural runes).

Aliana gets a special mention too.

A few suggestions, as stated above, 3x2 archers with wind rune and support scion is really disgusting.

2x3 Leonx are way to good with column tactics, metered march, and Raven taberds. The hardest part of running the cats is they just move too fast, being able to inch them forward on initiative 6 or 7 is really helpful.

Scions are for blocking. Using them for anything else or expecting more from them is pointless.

2x1 archers with fire rune can ping an army to death with chip damage.

meagan with F-dice is the most devastating hero unless fighting Daqan.

Alliana...just is always good.

48 minutes ago, Jukey said:

A few suggestions, as stated above, 3x2 archers with wind rune and support scion is really disgusting.

2x3 Leonx are way to good with column tactics, metered march, and Raven taberds. The hardest part of running the cats is they just move too fast, being able to inch them forward on initiative 6 or 7 is really helpful.

Scions are for blocking. Using them for anything else or expecting more from them is pointless.

2x1 archers with fire rune can ping an army to death with chip damage.

meagan with F-dice is the most devastating hero unless fighting Daqan.

Alliana...just is always good.

I "liked" the post, but I hate everything in it. I'm having trouble seeing how I could make a Waiqar army that is ready for any/all of those threats. Which I guess is the whole reason this thread exists, so nice work.

One of my friends also struggles using his Latari army against me (Waiqar) and is getting demoralized by it all.

I love to encourage fair play so I'll either point him to the direction of this thread or explain some of the strategies suggested to him myself.

Love this community!

22 hours ago, Jukey said:

A few suggestions, as stated above, 3x2 archers with wind rune and support scion is really disgusting.

2x3 Leonx are way to good with column tactics, metered march, and Raven taberds. The hardest part of running the cats is they just move too fast, being able to inch them forward on initiative 6 or 7 is really helpful.

Scions are for blocking. Using them for anything else or expecting more from them is pointless.

2x1 archers with fire rune can ping an army to death with chip damage.

meagan with F-dice is the most devastating hero unless fighting Daqan.

Alliana...just is always good.

This is all exactly how I lose to Latari. 3x2 archers with wind rune and a support scion is a stupidly good combo. Latari are extremely mobile. Making them even more mobile with wind rune sometimes almost feels like cheating. I've literally had Ardus ready to charge into Aliana, only for her to shift around my Ardus and basically wave at him as she runs by him. Only to immediately have the Leonx riders come crashing in from behind where Aliana was (keyword: was) and dropping Ardus to 1 hp left.

The main thing to remember with elves is this, never engage a unit you can't kill before it swings back. Elves are shifty and mobile, but squishy.

On 1/7/2018 at 3:23 PM, Parakitor said:

I "liked" the post, but I hate everything in it. I'm having trouble seeing how I could make a Waiqar army that is ready for any/all of those threats. Which I guess is the whole reason this thread exists, so nice work.

At this point, locally, we don’t have a Waiqar strategy or build that beats Latari with even a 30% success rate. We managed to evolve Latari army strategy a lot faster than Waiqar. The staggering lack of mobility is too crippling. So, this thread was a little surprising to me.