Ok, so Jamming Beam and Scrambler Missiles are pretty much considered not especially worthwhile between the opportunity cost, points and other restrictions. My simple modification to each is with the Jam condition.
Jammed: A ship with with this condition is assigned a Weapons Disabled Token. Action: Remove the Jammed condition.
Problem with jamming thanks to accretion there is many ways to tokenless modify dice such as using stress to modify dice or the exact opposite Expertise which is an auto-focus for attacking. Oh so I can't focus, no biggy I'll just slam and drop this bomb and get out of the blast area. No focus needed.
As for your proposal well it is at a point of equilibrium instability as in it can go from useless to OP or back again on a certain combo. The Action required to remove the "cursed" token is no more different than what current jam does as in focus/evade/target lock action to remove curse. On the other hand it could go to Now I win because you can't attack for 20some odd turns. In which case the only other option is to simply forfit or draw out the game running away till time and salvage some MOV.
Jamming beam fix: range 1-3
thats it.
As ordnance case taught us some things are better left underpowered or niche pick. I guess some people never learn.
30 minutes ago, Embir82 said:As ordnance case taught us some things are better left underpowered or niche pick. I guess some people never learn.
Exactly. There seems to be an attitude that if something doesn't devastate an opponent's list all on its own, it's useless.
3 hours ago, GrimmyV said:Jamming beam fix: range 1-3
thats it.
It really does need to remove all non-red tokens, though. Not just 'any' non-red token, but remove/prohibit all non-red tokens. Too much token stacking in the game! Of course, if you already have none, then any single one is perfectly able to remove the jam token, as it is now. '1' can be 'all', after all. But if hitting a ship with a bunch of blue target lock or evade or focus or reinforce tokens on it...
That is probably what is needed to fix it.
It's possible to convince me by playtest results indicating...only increasing the range to 3, plus changing it to 'any 1 of its non-red tokens' (instead of the named couple it effects at present), plus letting the attacker decide on the token...could be sufficient. But it'd have to be some very convincing data, because as it is, this things feels uselessly underpowered.
Yaeh. R1-3. Remove and prohibit all non-red tokens. I LIKE that.
Scrambler missiles should do 1 dmg....
Yeah range really kills the cannon you're way better off with TB
Weapons Disabled is way too harsh, though.
It's like the near-universal hate for blinded pilots delivered by I'll Show You The Dark Side - by all means make my attacks as inaccurate as heck, but completely stopping me from even trying to shoot at you removes my involvement in the game in a way that just massively kills enjoyment, even if the statistical effect on the game is about the same.
There's always the chance of Soontir Fel rolling 5 straight blanks, and there is a lot of satisfaction in finally hitting the bugger, in a way that's a lot more engaging than "not allowed to shoot....not allowed to shoot....shoot normally".
55 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:Yaeh. R1-3. Remove and prohibit all non-red tokens. I LIKE that.
Scrambler missiles should do 1 dmg....
The thing is, the Jam token mechanic is nice. It's simple, it works, and whilst there are ways around it (expertise & predator, for example), it's still good because if nothing else it takes away your ability to use focus tokens defensively or use ATTACK [Target Lock] weapons.
It's a bit like Ion and Stress and Tractor - the issue isn't the token, it's the means of delivering it. Subsequent upgrade cards handing out jam tokens for actions or proximity might be much more appealing
The big problem is that the jamming beam doesn't assign enough of them - at least, not enough to justify giving up a damaging primary weapon attack.
I would suggest the Jam token is fine, the stats of the Jamming beam are fine. If I was tweaking it, the only thing I would be to change the second sentence to:
"...If this attack hits, assign the defender 1 Jam Token for each uncancelled [Hit] and [Crit] result..."
That way the weapon is more or less the same, but it has the potential to deliver multiple jam tokens in a single hit, especially against agility 0 targets.
The token itself is fine. Its the ways to apply it thats complete garbage.
Jamming Beam isnt super accurate, eats your attack, and only applies 1 token. It does less "damage" than tractorbeam does, even if nobody is making use of the -1 agi, because of the reposition. Plus, its 1-2 for some god awful reason. No cannon except blasters should not have R3 access.
Scrambler Missiles are even worse, theyre 2pts/just as moderately accurate/do no damage/only work once in most cases/can potentially jam your own guys.
Jamming Beam going up to a 4die attack and R1-3 might help it be used from time to time. It becomes very accurate and generally it might be better to fire it at R3 than your main gun.
Scrambler should have not been a splash effect, instead it should have applied 3 jam tokens to the target. 2pts to effectively shut down any token play on that ship for quite awhile could easily get it killed off.
Also fix the wording on jam tokens so they stack properly. The way its worded right now technically they dont stack, even though it sounds really squarely and thus probably not intended to get them to all be removed from 1 focus/evade/blue targetlock.
Another thing that really hurts jam tokens is the opponent chooses the token to lose, so I waste my attack and cant even choose to discard their target lock to prevent a missile in my face. And it doesnt get rid of red target locks, so I cant equip that cool new droid on scum and shoot my own people to remove target locks. Lots holding these jam weapons back. Doing 1dmg might make them worthwhile.
13 hours ago, Embir82 said:As ordnance case taught us some things are better left underpowered or niche pick. I guess some people never learn.
It’s not irrational to want things to be good though, even if it’s unreasonable to expect everything to be great. And we should really be able to feel safe that the designers can make something just good enough vs breaking it in the other direction and making it too powerful. Unfortunately, FFG has proven to us they aren’t always that capable.
Ordnance is an unfortunate example, even if it is a cautiounary one. We had to deal with Jumpmasters abusing ordnance, and they were more the issue than ordnance itself was. Then we get rid of that, and for a very brief period, ordnance was probably right where it should be. I’m almost inclined to believe we were fine even with cruise missiles.
And then- for a reason no one seems to understand- Harpoons.
Edited by KdubbWould the 0 damage on attack upgrades be OP if they allowed a second shot on the target if they hit?
i suspect that would cause issues with the xD defender title.
Two instances of "perform another attack" if the tractor/jamm hit.
8 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:i suspect that would cause issues with the xD defender title.
Two instances of "perform another attack" if the tractor/jamm hit.
I don't see the issue, and I'm totally unbiased on the issue.
you dont see an issue with 3 Delta's w/ xD, Tractor, and Mk2 engines (96pts total) getting to reduce agility and then fire their main gun twice, assuming tractor hit? Thats 9 attacks from 3 ships, with each set of 3 progessively getting harder to avoid and the third set being flatout impossible to avoid in most cases.
That would be absolutely insane.
The only other multi-tap abuse i could think of that i'd actually be fine with is double-cannon users. Jam into Tractor into main gun or missile/torp, which currently is the IG88 or Gunboat only. Which is one thing i was hoping when i saw they got 2 cannons was a way to fire a light, generally waste of my time cannon in conjunction with the real hitter cannon. HLC right after a Tractor would be sweet.
Edited by Vineheart01The non-daamaging cannons (Tractor beam/jamming beam) should roll a 4th die. They waste your attack for a status effect, they should at least have a good chance to inflict that status.
19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:you dont see an issue with 3 Delta's w/ xD, Tractor, and Mk2 engines (96pts total) getting to reduce agility and then fire their main gun twice, assuming tractor hit? Thats 9 attacks from 3 ships, with each set of 3 progessively getting harder to avoid and the third set being flatout impossible to avoid in most cases.
That would be absolutely insane.
The only other multi-tap abuse i could think of that i'd actually be fine with is double-cannon users. Jam into Tractor into main gun or missile/torp, which currently is the IG88 or Gunboat only. Which is one thing i was hoping when i saw they got 2 cannons was a way to fire a light, generally waste of my time cannon in conjunction with the real hitter cannon. HLC right after a Tractor would be sweet.
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised this went over your head as you use Edward as your avatar.