47 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Because I fly a lot of stuff. Like, usually, never the same thing twice. Thus, it would not have answered my question, because I'm not just curious about a Phantom build--that's just the one that got me thinking. What I want to know is, when listbuilding, is 40 points cray cray for a StarViper? A vaksai? Any PS 9 Ace with all the fixings?

I think of 50 points as something large base sized and 25 points for the little guys. Obviously, that's outmoded.

When I'm building for Epic, I want my full-tricked-out, mid-level EPT generics to fall out at 20-25 points, 33 max for a Glaive Defender. When I spend more, it's usually on a large ship. So 40+ points seems like a ton to spend on a handful of hull and shields.

I was pretty satisfied with the first couple answers, but then I felt attacked and got aggressive-defensive. My apologies.

IMHO, the problem is we went from this:

to these:

Half the cost, fully modifiable 5 dice (without requiring 2 actions and the perfect maneuver to get you at R1) that really aren't that hard to set up with the right maneuver or the right chassis.

Chips didn't break ordnance (as I've seen some claim); the ordnance broke ordnance.

I like that missiles are torpedoes are a thing, and I think that alpha strikes should have a place in the game, but in a couple waves we went from "That's Impossible" to "All Too Easy."

Nice comparison. Just wanted to add this for comparison as well -

10 minutes ago, tangoraven said:

Nice comparison. Just wanted to add this for comparison as well -

Absolutely. It was just more direct to compare

5 dice + TL + Focus + Discard + R1 (hard) @ 6 points

to

5 dice + TL + 0 more actions + Discard + R2 or R3 (easy) @ 3 points.

Harpoon Missile should be 6 points, Adv Protons should be 3 points, and Cruise Missiles should be 4 points. Then their costs would better match their potentials.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

(14 + 15 +16 +17 +18 +19 +20 +21 +22 +23 +24+ 25 + 26 + 27 + 28 + 29 + 30 + 31 +32 + 33 +34 +35 + 36 + 37 +38 + 39 + 40 + 41 +42 + 43 + 44 + 45 + 46 + 47 + 48 +49 + 50 +51 + 52 + 53 + 54 + 55 + 56 + 57 +58 + 59 + 60 +61 + 62 + 63) / 49 = 39.28571428571429.

So, let's say 40 points.

You ought to divide by 50, rather than by 49. That puts things exactly at 40.

//

More broadly, I think a lot depends on the frame. Having more than 34-ish points in an Interceptor is suspect on all but a few pilots, for example, but a 34 point Miranda probably won't get anything done. A Miranda around 40 points isn't crazy, and can be built effectively up as high as the low 50s, but a TIE Advanced or an Auzituck over 40 is a bit of a stretch. The flipside is true, where a sub-50 point VT-49 or YT-1300 might be too skimpy to be effective.

I think it takes some feel to get used to it.

The flip side is that I'd be lost optimizing an Epic list.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Absolutely. It was just more direct to compare

5 dice + TL + Focus + Discard + R1 (hard) @ 6 points

to

5 dice + TL + 0 more actions + Discard + R2 or R3 (easy) @ 3 points.

Harpoon Missile should be 6 points, Adv Protons should be 3 points, and Cruise Missiles should be 4 points. Then their costs would better match their potentials.

• Cruise Missiles are a lot harder to use effectively than you'd think.
  • If you want a 5-dice attack, you're locked in to a speed 4 or speed 5 straight
  • This is not a great choice when your opponent knows you want to do this, and (unlike advanced protons or proton rockets) you have a minimum range.
  • Even delivering a 4-dice attack locks you in to speed 3 (meaning, for example, a Khiraxz cannot make a hard turn and fire them)
• Proton Rockets are absolutely fine
  • Yes, you can get 5 dice at range 1. But only a very specific list of ships can do this:
    • A-wing
    • TIE Advanced
    • TIE Adv. Prototype
    • Scyk with 'Heavy Scyk' Title
    • TIE Defender
    • Khiraxz, Z-95 or TIE Bomber with Stealth Device
  • The 3-dice attack ships already deliver 4 dice at range 1, making the weapon not really worth its cost, and the odds of a ship with a stealth device and proton rockets getting to fire them is fairly minimal, so realistically it's the first 4 ships - all of which only have a 2-dice attack natively and really do need the option of a range 1 'spike' damage to hurt the reinforce/reroll/token stack brigade
  • This goes double because some of them (A-wing and TIE Adv. Prototype) are critically dependent on Autothrusters to stay alive, meaning buying guidance chips is a big investment despite it being 'free'
  • Also note that Proton Rockets are noticeably more expensive for an A-wing because buying them means not equipping the Chaardan Refit upgrade (-2 points) meaning they are within a point of 'effective cost' of Advanced Proton Torpedoes.
  • Also Also note that TIE Advanced and TIE Adv. Prototype don't really like Attack [Focus] weapons because the former wants to acquire a target lock and not spend it instead of focusing to support Advanced Targeting Computer and the latter wants to acquire a target lock instead of focusing to trigger TIE/v1
• Advanced Protons are a lot better than you give them credit for
  • They are still overpriced. Don't get me wrong; they were overpriced when they were released back in wave 2 when all you had to compare them too was concussion, homing, assault and cluster missiles and proton torpedoes.
  • Whilst they need target lock & focus, if they get that they are much more than 'fully modifiable' - the odds of a Proton Rocket or Cruise Missile with Target Lock & Focus getting at least one blank after rerolls & focus is about 28%. With an advanced proton torpedo it's not even 2%.
  • There are relatively few ships which can use them well, but in the hands of the ones that do they're devastating. If you've never been subjected to Push The Limit/Advanced Proton Torpedoes/Concord Dawn Protector/Autothrusters Fenn Rau I assure you it hurts like buggery, with a 96% chance of a one-shot-a-full-health-ship-with-scary-easy 6 hits on a single attack.
• Harpoon Missiles are, however, just a bit ridiculous.
  • Even if you completely ignore the Harpooned condition, a don't-spend-your-lock missile is better (fractionally) at delivering damage than Concussion Missile's blank-to-hit modification once lock-and-focus or lock-and-guidance-chips get involved and tactically much more useful if you carry several or can reload since you can elect not to spend your lock on a good roll.
  • The Harpooned condition is irritatingly easy to trigger - getting a critical to set it off should be difficult - except that guidance chips now give Scum & Villainy's preferred missile boats (Kimogilas, Scurrgs & Khiraxz) an automatic critical on every attack, and since a kill sets off the harpoon anyway, who cares, because few small ships can take two harpoon missiles and live.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Because I fly a lot of stuff. Like, usually, never the same thing twice. Thus, it would not have answered my question, because I'm not just curious about a Phantom build--that's just the one that got me thinking. What I want to know is, when listbuilding, is 40 points cray cray for a StarViper? A vaksai? Any PS 9 Ace with all the fixings?

I think of 50 points as something large base sized and 25 points for the little guys. Obviously, that's outmoded.

When I'm building for Epic, I want my full-tricked-out, mid-level EPT generics to fall out at 20-25 points, 33 max for a Glaive Defender. When I spend more, it's usually on a large ship. So 40+ points seems like a ton to spend on a handful of hull and shields.

I was pretty satisfied with the first couple answers, but then I felt attacked and got aggressive-defensive. My apologies.

Maybe ask those questions then.

40 points is probably too much for a StarViper, and definitely too much for a Vaksai. It's too much for *most* small bases, but by no means all - Phantoms, T70s, Silencers, Scurrgs and K Wings (well, Miranda) can all work fine at 40+ points.

20 points is too much for Rex, conversely. **** 15 is too much for Rex.

Historically, 35 points was probably the most common value for a PS9 ace, but then, historically PS9 aces were a lot more fragile than they are today. If bombs ever get properly corraled, you'll probably see those 34 or 35 point PS9 aces come roaring back, particularly Fel and Fenn.

When you ask general questions and expect specific answers, it doesn't work, because answer to 'what's the average point value for a single ship' is 'which ship?'

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I think of 50 points as something large base sized and 25 points for the little guys. Obviously, that's outmoded.

It's not outmoded, because it was precisely as wrong in Wave 1 & 2 as it is now.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

• Cruise Missiles are a lot harder to use effectively than you'd think.
  • If you want a 5-dice attack, you're locked in to a speed 4 or speed 5 straight
  • This is not a great choice when your opponent knows you want to do this, and (unlike advanced protons or proton rockets) you have a minimum range.
  • Even delivering a 4-dice attack locks you in to speed 3 (meaning, for example, a Khiraxz cannot make a hard turn and fire them)

Not in the target-rich environment of Epic or vs. a Huge.

But otherwise, nice analysis.

13 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Not in the target-rich environment of Epic or vs. a Huge.

But otherwise, nice analysis.

Accepted and agreed

But said same target-rich environment tends to favour 'all ships within range 1' splash damage weapons (Scrambler, Harpoon, Ion, Assault) over the cruise missile.

They are definitely good tools for hurting capital ships, though - especially getting past the prow shields of the never-to-be-sufficiently-accursed shield projector-equipped Bright Hope .

(seriously, you thought Biggs was bad? Oh, sweet summer child)

3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Accepted.

But said same target-rich environment tends to favour 'all ships within range 1' splash damage weapons (Scrambler, Harpoon, Ion, Assault) over the cruise missile.

They are definitely good tools for hurting capital ships, though - especially getting past the prow shields of the never-to-be-sufficiently-accursed shield projector-equipped Bright Hope .

(seriously, you thought Biggs was bad? Oh, sweet summer child)

Unless your foe's favorite ship continues to be the B-Wing. Then "1-point splash" = "you scuffed my paint, Imperial dog."

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Unless your foe's favorite ship continues to be the B-Wing. Then "1-point splash" = "you scuffed my paint, Imperial dog."

"That's 'Captain Imperial Dog' to you, Rebel. Gamma Squadron, fox two through twelve...."