We had a little discussion in my group last time we played a campaign. I, as Biv, had been using Close and Personal on an opponent and wanted to finish him off with Stay Down, which allows Biv to perform the melee attack again against the same foe. When the dice was rolled whether I killed him or not depended entirely on whether I was allowed to use the Vibrobayonet with Stay Down or not. Eventually it was allowed by the imperial player and meant that I took down an otherwise uninjured Boba Fett in one activation, which the imperial player thought made Biv quite overpowered.

Question is whether this was legal or not.

On one hand Stay Down says "...after you resolve Close and Personal..." and the Vibrobayonet is only used with close and personal. On the other hand the Vibrobayonet is a part of the weapon and it doesn't make sense that it somehow cannot be used for the second melee attack (would Biv be taking it off between the attacks?). Also you could argue that when allowed to do the melee attack from Close and Personal again you should be allowed to use the same abilities again as long as they are not exhausted or in other fashion restricted from being used a second time. Also, you need 8 XP to get these two cards, so it's supposed to be good cards I think.

Anyone knows the exact rules on this and perhaps an explanation of why it is so?

Yes it is legal

There's no ambiguity here: Stay Down explicitly says "perform the melee attack from C&P again" and Vibrobayonet triggers whenever you do the melee attack from C&P

Actually, Stay Down doesn't say to perform "Close and Personal", so the trigger "While performing 'Close and Personal" does not exist. Reading literally, you only perform the melee attack part of Close and Personal, and not Close and Personal itself.

Also note that the melee attack of Close and Personal is not performed with any weapon. Vibrobayonet explicitly applies to the attack regardless. Also, the ranged attack of Close and Personal can be performed with a different weapon than the one Vibrobayonet is attached to.

11 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Actually, Stay Down doesn't say to perform "Close and Personal", so the trigger "While performing 'Close and Personal" does not exist. Reading literally, you only perform the melee attack part of Close and Personal, and not Close and Personal itself.

Also note that the melee attack of Close and Personal is not performed with any weapon. Vibrobayonet explicitly applies to the attack regardless. Also, the ranged attack of Close and Personal can be performed with a different weapon than the one Vibrobayonet is attached to.

So what's your take? That is is not legal?

What the card says is "perform the melee attack of Close and Personal", not "perform a melee attack with some dice". Don't you think there is a point to this wording?

If you, like I, like to make sense of abilities and weapons, you would probably think that the reason that you get the bonus from the Vibrobayonet is because that is what you are hitting your enemy with - I know that you could technically use another weapon for the ranged attack, but that is not the point. The point is that you have the Vibrobayonet and you make a melee attack.

It might be intended, but as written I would say Vibrobayonet does not apply to the melee attack from Stay Down.

53 minutes ago, ricope said:

There's no ambiguity here: Stay Down explicitly says "perform the melee attack from C&P again" and Vibrobayonet triggers whenever you do the melee attack from C&P

The ambiguity is that it says "after you resolve", but I do agree that it makes sense, since you are using the melee attack from Close and Personal. It's one of those situations, I think, where the text doesn't undeniably allow it but where it makes sense.

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4 hours ago, Kjaerhus said:

The ambiguity is that it says "after you resolve", but I do agree that it makes sense, since you are using the melee attack from Close and Personal. It's one of those situations, I think, where the text doesn't undeniably allow it but where it makes sense.

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Yeah I can see but I'd still rule it as legal: you're arguing the melee attack from "perform the melee attack from C&P" (from stay down) is not the same as the melee attack from "while performing C&P, the melee attack ". Simply because Stay down didn't specially say anything about C&P itself and only mentioned the melee attack from C&P

Easier reading version: an action A contains B and C. You're arguing "while doing A, the B..." is not referring to the same thing as "the B from A..."

Biv needs all the help he can get.

I would allow this, although the wording is hardly ideal.

Until I read this thread I hadn't even considered there might be ambiguity. It seems pretty logical to me that the vibrobayonet applies each time.

Otherwise it's not exactly much for 7xp of cards...

19 hours ago, ricope said:

Yeah I can see but I'd still rule it as legal: you're arguing the melee attack from "perform the melee attack from C&P" (from stay down) is not the same as the melee attack from "while performing C&P, the melee attack ". Simply because Stay down didn't specially say anything about C&P itself and only mentioned the melee attack from C&P

Easier reading version: an action A contains B and C. You're arguing "while doing A, the B..." is not referring to the same thing as "the B from A..."

Well, I think we agree that he should be able to use the Vibrobayonet with Stay Down, for the same reasons that you and others mention. It's just not clear from the wording used, so that's why I am bringing it up. One of my friends picked Biv for our next campaign, so I thought I'd check what some of you perhaps more experienced players thought about it.

11 hours ago, neosmagus said:

Until I read this thread I hadn't even considered there might be ambiguity. It seems pretty logical to me that the vibrobayonet applies each time.

Otherwise it's not exactly much for 7xp of cards...

Exactly. And you take two strain for both so you pretty much have to be "clean" to pull it off, unless you are able to remove a strain or two with the first attacks.

We are just getting into a campaign with Biv and my friend thinks he should take the 2 strain for the C&P and then the 2 strain for Stay Down is too much stain and thinks it should be lowered to just 2 over all. What do you think? I think if I were to give in and adjust it, then maybe just lowering SD to 1 strain. Since wiping out Boba Fett in 1 activation seems a bit overpowered already.

4 hours ago, JasonTheConner said:

We are just getting into a campaign with Biv and my friend thinks he should take the 2 strain for the C&P and then the 2 strain for Stay Down is too much stain and thinks it should be lowered to just 2 over all. What do you think? I think if I were to give in and adjust it, then maybe just lowering SD to 1 strain. Since wiping out Boba Fett in 1 activation seems a bit overpowered already.

IMO, for 4xp, "Stay Down" should be no strain.

Biv surely is nice against single targets with the right build, but then that's about all he's good at and the empire can play around that. Plus he's so strain heavy that it's hard to pull off "Stay down" more than once a mission anyways.