58 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Quick question, are nerfed cards nerfed in epic play or is that just 100/6 nonsense? I know there is 0 reason to nerf Palp in epic but something like the jump master, is that in need of tweaks for large scale war?

Well, since the nerfs are official, they would apply to anything not on your dining room table, technically. One huge complaint that is going on here is the massive lack of oversight for epic play (better known as a FAQ).

As for your 2 examples, old Palps is just fine in Epic IMHO, but the toilet seat was a disaster in all ways.

4 Brobots is kinda out of hand, too.

Epic is a different beast and really needs a spit and shine of it's own. For example, I think the 4 card limit is probably a good idea, but as @Gilarius pointed out, some exceptions might need to be made for "integral upgrades."

Which could be a interesting list to put together. . .TAP + title; Interceptor + AT, X-Wing + AI, etc.

5 hours ago, Sasajak said:

As a guide we have brackets for our Galactic Civil War scenarios (was Reb v Imp only)

0 Epic points/200+ points

Epic Dogfight - no huge ships allowed

2 Epic points/200+ points

The Imperial player must take a Gozanti-class Cruiser; the Rebel player must take a GR-75 Medium Transport

3 Epic points/300+ points

The Imperial player must take a Raider-class corv.; the Rebel player must take a CR90 Corvette

5 Epic points/400+ points

The Imperial player must take a Gozanti-class Cruiser and Raider-class corv.; the Rebel player must take a GR-75 Medium Transport and CR90 Corvette.

Worked for us but ship selection was also filtered according to the era of the war.

So, how did this work? Did players choose a match type, or did the entire league rotate thru these options?

In part I ask because I am not of the Huge Ship Mandatory crowd, so I am pleased to see epic dogfights as a thing.

4 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Putting a limit of 4 on any individual munitions-associated card (actual munitions cards; guidance chips; bombs; anything else?) and turrets might be worth applying.

Just as a point of query, why 4? Are we falling back on our MTG days? (BTW, this isn't directed at you, @gilarius, you were just the closest iteration of the idea.)

Responding to several things, but I’m on mobile so I’m not going to go back and quote the relevant posts.

Re: Cracken:

The Huge Ship rules already stipulate that Huge ships cannot take free actions. Does Cracken bypass this somehow that I’m not seeing?

re: effective builds for Huge Ships:

Huge ships have some builds that are super powerful, and some that are super crappy, the same as any other ship. Remember when we were new to the game and we tried loading all those proton torpedos and etc on a B-Wing only to have it drop in one round of fire? The same holds true for Epic. You have to find the right balance of cards to get the most out of your Huge ships.

Re: small ships affecting Huge ships:

dont forget about Howlrunner or Swarm tactics. A Raider flanked by Howlrunner and Jonus is a beast. NOTE: I don’t think this is a bad thing though. As has been said, you pay a hefty premium for these powerful combos. A decently kitted Raider + Jonus + Howlrunner is going to be around 200 points, and it should be able to hold its own against 200 points of other ships. The same holds true for the Maul/Zuckuss/Esege/etc combos out there.

Re: things I’d like to see for Epic:

everything that has been mentioned (FAQ, new ships, mechanics, campaign box, etc) and one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned yet: TRACTOR BEAMS! Seriously, how did Tractor-freaking-beams get added to small-based ships and NOT get added to capital ships- you know, the ships that actually WOULD and COULD be using Tractor beams?

7 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

dont forget about Howlrunner or Swarm tactics. A Raider flanked by Howlrunner and Jonus is a beast. NOTE: I don’t think this is a bad thing though. As has been said, you pay a hefty premium for these powerful combos. A decently kitted Raider + Jonus + Howlrunner is going to be around 200 points, and it should be able to hold its own against 200 points of other ships. The same holds true for the Maul/Zuckuss/Esege/etc combos out there.

Re: things I’d like to see for Epic:

everything that has been mentioned (FAQ, new ships, mechanics, campaign box, etc) and one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned yet: TRACTOR BEAMS! Seriously, how did Tractor-freaking-beams get added to small-based ships and NOT get added to capital ships- you know, the ships that actually WOULD and COULD be using Tractor beams?

Ok, one... Howl Runner plus swarm tactics plus huge ship. Freakin mind blown. Never thought of it. Wow.

Two...: SOOOOOOOOOOO agree about tractor beams.

I like the howl runner idea but isn’t it kinda silly for a tie pilot to affect a capital ship? Presumeably carrying the command officer, Tarkin for example, he’s not going to take orders from a stick jockey. I kinda have to side with small ship abilities doing nothing for huge ships. Cool idea though.

Also maximum effort on huge ship tractor beams. How about a capture mechanic? A huge ship that has a small ship tractored should be able to forcibly dock it in the bay if said ship has a hangar bay to begin with. Fun and thematic.

3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, how did this work? Did players choose a match type, or did the entire league rotate thru these options?

In part I ask because I am not of the Huge Ship Mandatory crowd, so I am pleased to see epic dogfights as a thing.

7 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Players choose the match type. Came about to save coming up with formats each time and to keep Epic games a little more balanced. Of course everyone was free to modify if both players agreed. This is casual after all! Usually though it meant we could say Hoth era, 3 Epic points/300 points and know what was meant instantly

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

A Raider flanked by Howlrunner and Jonus is a beast. NOTE: I don’t think this is a bad thing though

I’m torn as I get where you’re coming from but it just doesn’t seem right that these small ships can help out a huge ship. Still Howl isn’t on our ban list (ability working with huge ship) as it’s never come up so she might be assisting my Raider just for fun next time and to prove her ban worthiness

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

how did Tractor-freaking-beams get added to small-based ships and NOT get added to capital ships

Could have been fun to move ships into your flight line and then crush them - or possibly not

Just one idea. In my experience Epic is much better if you play Objetive based games. Not simply more ships on the table to peeew peeew. Armada is a good example about this.

Not easy to play in a competitive way...Objectives are tricky sometimes. Much easier in Armada, limited to 6 Turns.

Protect the VIP. Countdown to Jump. Orbital bombardment. Asteroid chase. Bountyhunters. Etc.

13 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

Epic FAQ update (and constantly updated). We`'re in the middle of an epic league at the moment and the latest wave changed the meta, big time.

Definitely. Jam tokens are a nightmare for an Ordnance Tubes-equipped corvette to deal with, even without the trajectory simulator bomb-flingers.

11 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

We're on our third epic league, and my advice is this:

- Clarify rules and interactions as you see fit.

- Be careful about restrictions / custom rules. It does not "fix" the meta. Instead, it throws it in drastically different directions. We had custom rules to try and "help" people to use huge ships is past years. This years, we're making the use of one huge ship mandatory and observing carefully.

Agreed. A lot of times, the 'helpful' extra rule throws something else out of whack (like the recent 'make reinforce count as evade tokens for rule effects to nerf wookies', 'are you sure you want juke/swarm leader wookies? ' thread)

9 hours ago, Sasajak said:

0 Epic points/200+ points

Epic Dogfight - no huge ships allowed

2 Epic points/200+ points

The Imperial player must take a Gozanti-class Cruiser; the Rebel player must take a GR-75 Medium Transport

3 Epic points/300+ points

The Imperial player must take a Raider-class corv.; the Rebel player must take a CR90 Corvette

5 Epic points/400+ points

The Imperial player must take a Gozanti-class Cruiser and Raider-class corv.; the Rebel player must take a GR-75 Medium Transport and CR90 Corvette.

Worked for us but ship selection was also filtered according to the era of the war.

I'm with @Gilarius here - the option to field a 'carrier group' is often more fun. There's something which just looks right about moving up and deploying a swarm of fighters.

6 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Quick question, are nerfed cards nerfed in epic play or is that just 100/6 nonsense? I know there is 0 reason to nerf Palp in epic but something like the jump master, is that in need of tweaks for large scale war?

Theoretically, the changes reflect "this is now what the card says" so it's in force for 'standard play', 'cinematic play' (scenarios) and 'epic play'.

3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Re: small ships affecting Huge ships:

dont forget about Howlrunner or Swarm tactics. A Raider flanked by Howlrunner and Jonus is a beast. NOTE: I don’t think this is a bad thing though. As has been said, you pay a hefty premium for these powerful combos. A decently kitted Raider + Jonus + Howlrunner is going to be around 200 points, and it should be able to hold its own against 200 points of other ships. The same holds true for the Maul/Zuckuss/Esege/etc combos out there.

Definitely. Not to mention that killing Howlrunner/Jonus before the Corvette fires is by no means unachievable (okay, maybe not Roark).

The thing is, a corvette with maul and all the turbolasers is essentially pegging 4 heavily modified heavy laser cannon shots at people. Which is nasty, but is also achievable with 4 Nu Squadron Pilot Gunboats for a little over 100 points. Epic ships - the warships, anyway - need that support synergy to pull their weight.

42 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

Just one idea. In my experience Epic is much better if you play Objetive based games. Not simply more ships on the table to peeew peeew. Armada is a good example about this.

Not easy to play in a competitive way...Objectives are tricky sometimes. Much easier in Armada, limited to 6 Turns.

Protect the VIP. Countdown to Jump. Orbital bombardment. Asteroid chase. Bountyhunters. Etc.

It would be neat to see a campaign expansion box to supplement Epic as a format similar to Armada. Or at least provide mission/scenario cards that shift the game and make it more diverse and interactive. For example, an Epic game that requires a certain ship class with list restrictions or even come with pre-built lists, and there will be an objective deck to draw from that need to be completed in each game. Each time an objective is completed, that player is awarded victory points and draws the next objective card. The winner is determined by the player who completed the most objectives, which would also be good for measuring in leagues and tournaments.

Sorry if this sounded like one incoherent ramble, it’s late.

But I just gotta say, I ******* love Epic.

Not sure if it has been said yet but PLEASE make Sabine a small/ large base crew only. Nothing is worse than getting bombed to death by K-Wings while Sabine watches from a Rebel Transport.

7 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I’m not seeing?

My response on page 1 in that we played Cracken wrong

Many have said this, just want to echo it:

-Small ships abilities and upgrades should not effect huge ships.

-However, huge ships need more helps with focus. Maybe a permanent eyeballs are changed to hit/evade? After all they have bigger/faster targeting computers.

-abilities that cause self stress, or anything else that becomes ‘free’ for huge ships, should be banned.

-I personally think that huge ships hulls are tougher than large/small base ships, thus damage should be reduced somehow.

2 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

Many have said this, just want to echo it:

-Small ships abilities and upgrades should not effect huge ships.

-However, huge ships need more helps with focus. Maybe a permanent eyeballs are changed to hit/evade? After all they have bigger/faster targeting computers.

I agree with the first part. Roark putting a Corvette at PS12 or Howlrunner/Jonus' effects on rerolls can be ridiculous.

As for focus, an upgrade that would allow you to spend your reinforce token to change all your focuses into hits would be neat.

2 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

-I personally think that huge ships hulls are tougher than large/small base ships, thus damage should be reduced somehow.

This. Small ship guns especially should do reduced damage to huge ships period. Ordnance is acceptable because well that’s exactly what it’s for. Maybe put a rule in there that if a huge ship has shields up blaster weapons outside ion cannons on small base ships do nothing in damage. It would require you to drop the shields first which makes perfect sense in any xwing flight game I have ever played.

Also maybe have ion cannons do full damage to shields instead of the ion effect.

Don't picture jonus, roark and howl giving orders to commanders on corvettes.

Picture the fighter support assigned to a corvette sending it the targeting telemetry/early warning. Thats much less silly yes?

10 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

Also maximum effort on huge ship tractor beams. How about a capture mechanic? A huge ship that has a small ship tractored should be able to forcibly dock it in the bay if said ship has a hangar bay to begin with. Fun and thematic.

I did something like this for my Firefly - Magnetic Grapplers instead of Tractor Beams. (I made it range 0 since it's a grappling hook and not a tractor beam. A huge ship tractor beam would have a much greater range).

24 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

This. Small ship guns especially should do reduced damage to huge ships period. Ordnance is acceptable because well that’s exactly what it’s for. Maybe put a rule in there that if a huge ship has shields up blaster weapons outside ion cannons on small base ships do nothing in damage. It would require you to drop the shields first which makes perfect sense in any xwing flight game I have ever played.

Also maybe have ion cannons do full damage to shields instead of the ion effect.

Maybe let huge ships reduce the assigned face down damage cards from small/large ship primary weapons by one? Effectively, give the epics a free reinforce against hits to hull, while letting weapons deal damage as normal to shields, which can be regenerated on all epic ships for the cost of some energy. Note that crits would bypass the free "reinforce", thus making this a relatively incremental buff to the epics.

Wow...wish I'd seen this thread when I posted my Gozanti-rebuild /mod thread for Krayt's Honor ...

I love Epic...it's just that when we ( bunch of friends ) play a big group game on a mat covering a pool table top...according to the points tally, a ship like a Gozanti has a big price for not much gunning power in the fight. I mean - I think its a great ship and I love to deploy 4x TIE bombers and assault missile a friend's close-formation of Y-wings...but after the deployment it's an expensive hull that gets one shot.

12 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Re: things I’d like to see for Epic:

everything that has been mentioned (FAQ, new ships, mechanics, campaign box, etc) and one thing that hasn’t really been mentioned yet: TRACTOR BEAMS! Seriously, how did Tractor-freaking-beams get added to small-based ships and NOT get added to capital ships- you know, the ships that actually WOULD and COULD be using Tractor beams?

I have always been dissatisfied with the baby TB's effect. It's more like a "wiggler" than a "tractor." I have has this notion in my head for years. May I present the Huge TB Projector (prototype. . .the idea needs some polish for sure):

Huge Tractor Beam Projector

Energy: 1-5

Range 1-5

Attack 4. On a hit, cancel all damage and assign the target a HTBP Token.

For each Energy spent, reduce the target ship’s Speed by 1. Target ship receives a Stress token. If the target ship’s speed is reduced below 0, move the ship toward the tractor beam projector by that amount. (Attacking player places an appropriate speed template anywhere on the ship’s base and move it towards to source of the TB. The ship may not land on obstacles or other ships. If the target ship moves into contact with the Huge ship, the target ship is captured and leaves play.)

1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

This. Small ship guns especially should do reduced damage to huge ships period. Ordnance is acceptable because well that’s exactly what it’s for. Maybe put a rule in there that if a huge ship has shields up blaster weapons outside ion cannons on small base ships do nothing in damage. It would require you to drop the shields first which makes perfect sense in any xwing flight game I have ever played.

Also maybe have ion cannons do full damage to shields instead of the ion effect.

I like this. I’ll try it this weekend at my next epic event.

1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

This. Small ship guns especially should do reduced damage to huge ships period. Ordnance is acceptable because well that’s exactly what it’s for. Maybe put a rule in there that if a huge ship has shields up blaster weapons outside ion cannons on small base ships do nothing in damage. It would require you to drop the shields first which makes perfect sense in any xwing flight game I have ever played.

Also maybe have ion cannons do full damage to shields instead of the ion effect.

A. Careful with this. I don't think you want to make Huge ships unkillable. They die quickly to the right kinds of attacks (TLT, torps, missiles).

B. Maybe no R1 primary weapon bonus. Slows down little ship damage a bit, and mitigates the lumbering movement weakness a bit, without changing too much overall.

C. A handful of fighters are shown destroying ISDs over and over. Using the WWII model, the War in the Pacific was won with air fighter power, NOT battleships.

17 hours ago, Hexdot said:

Just one idea. In my experience Epic is much better if you play Objetive based games. Not simply more ships on the table to peeew peeew.

17 hours ago, SpikeSpiegel said:

. Or at least provide mission/scenario cards that shift the game and make it more diverse and interactive. For example, an Epic game that requires a certain ship class with list restrictions or even come with pre-built lists,

Huzzah, one of my favorite hobbies:

I have playtested Shielded Defenses and Stop Thief. Both are pretty solid, I think.

My next play session will be to try out Remote Rendezvous.

I already have outlines for a Rebel Shuttle and Gang Warfare scenario that I need to write up.

When I am putting them together my goals are:

A. They fall at about 300 points, but may have "free" or assigned components that make the points slightly higher.

B. Are sufficiently generic that players can list build without major limitations (except, this is mission, so plan for it).

C. Are sufficiently generic that ongoing growth of the game won't make them invalid/out of date.

D. Disadvantage: You will need to know the mission before hand to list build. So, sadly, not "super casual" because players need to come to the table ready to play the scenario. But then list building can become specialized for the mission, maybe using things you would not normally fly in "kill them all."

E. Disadvantage: I assume you are an XWM junkie with an "unlimited" collection, so I may call for (for example) 3 C-ROCs. Of course, there are ways around this, like let a different Huge ship fulfill the role on the table.

And because I love this stuff:

42 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

A. Careful with this. I don't think you want to make Huge ships unkillable. They die quickly to the right kinds of attacks (TLT, torps, missiles).

B. Maybe no R1 primary weapon bonus. Slows down little ship damage a bit, and mitigates the lumbering movement weakness a bit, without changing too much overall.

C. A handful of fighters are shown destroying ISDs over and over. Using the WWII model, the War in the Pacific was won with air fighter power, NOT battleships.

Good points, in rebuttle

A. I usually hear how weak huge ships are so I figured they needed the boost but admittedly have no experience to base it on.

B. I can agree with that change, but wouldn’t that make 2 att dice ships almost useless in epic? They are already nearly useless in the small game.

C. The fighters destroying ISD’s on screen are dumping torpedo’s into it first which I agree completely should work but a large shield grid absorbs a lot of blaster fire. Also naval ships are prone to sinking damage so aircraft are superior ship destroyers but I’ll wager explosives played a bigger part than machine gun fire to drop a boat ?

2 hours ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Don't picture jonus, roark and howl giving orders to commanders on corvettes.

Picture the fighter support assigned to a corvette sending it the targeting telemetry/early warning. Thats much less silly yes?

Agreed that makes more sense but if that was the case why would range be a restriction for targetting data? You could be half a lightyear away and that scenario is totally plausible if the guns had that kind of range. Probably thinking too much about it but I like balance between fluff and game mechanics ?

For the same reason they could beam the DS plans to a nearby ship in rogue one but not all the way to the rebel base. Small ship comms equipment is smaller and shorter range than a planetary comms set up.

Really communication between small ships and their nearby corvette isn't a crazy idea especially when those ships would be considered fighter -support- for a capital ship.

The idea that fighter support shouldn't support the corvette they're supporting seems illogical to me way more than the alternative.