Hey there! I've been Gming a force and destiny campaign and one of my players picked up the Consular source book. I've looked around on the forums for any clarification on the Ebb/Flow force ability and can't seem to find anything about what I'm looking for.
In the basic level of the ability it states for both Ebb and Flow "The force user may not activate this multiple times."
Does this mean per turn? Per encounter? We are not really sure. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
It's per use of the power. The core rulebook explains this when discussing Force powers in The Force chapter.
2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:It's per use of the power. The core rulebook explains this when discussing Force powers in The Force chapter.
Thank you. Looks like I need to re-read that chapter.. Thought I fully understood the force mechanics, but I suppose I need a refresher.
As a tangent to ebb/flow. How does it work if I’m trying to do ebb/flow with draw closer? Can I just roll all the force dice and decide after the results which way I want to spend the force pips or do I need to designate which force die is trying to accomplish what?
You can't make a combined Force power check with a combined Force power check. You would have to choose to use either Ebb/Flow or Draw Closer when you form the dice pool.
11 hours ago, OtterJethro said:As a tangent to ebb/flow. How does it work if I’m trying to do ebb/flow with draw closer? Can I just roll all the force dice and decide after the results which way I want to spend the force pips or do I need to designate which force die is trying to accomplish what?
Nope. You have to choose one or the other, as the devs have clarified that you to choose a specific Force effect when making your skill check, since using the Force die is part and parcel of the Action that skill check represents. So in this instance, you can either use Ebb/Flow or you can use Draw Closer, but you can't use both on the same roll, as they're both separate Actions.
An interesting Follow up would be:
the last control (or was it mastery?) Commit a FR - for the rest of the encounter you have to use all Pips (white and black with out the destiny flip) - are you now forced to only use ebb/flow OR are now even allowed to use move/ bind/ influence/ what ever other force power and would you still have to apply the "use all pips rule" since you can't uncommit the FR?
A use of a combined Force check would override the Ebb/Flow Control Upgrade for that check, although the Force die would remain committed and thus not be usable for the combined check.
With a committed force die you can use other force powers so if you were FR 2 and commit 1 to this control upgrade you get to roll a force die as part of your ability check, note that this isnt a combined check as such, it is part of the check (this part even skips the force die generating force points). The other force die can be used as part of a combined check.
so if you had ebb/flow and enhance:brawl, you spend an action to committ a die to ebb/flow control. next round you perform an enhance brawl check, so for the skill side of the check you roll your brawl pool plus a force die, this die generates no force points but any light side or dark side pips rolled allow you to add 1 success or 1 advantage, Dark side pips automatically cause 1 strain (even if you are a dark side user) additionally it also causes 1 conflict as normal. For the force side of the combined check you roll your remaining uncommitted force die and get to add success/advantage as normal , however on this die to use the opposing color of pip, you must use a destiny point and pay strain as per normal.
At least that is my understanding of the power, which is partly based on Sam Stewart's response about the power in the Order66 podcast, note that also based on this response , unlike enhance brawn/agility you cannot commit more than 1 die to this control upgrade force power.
Another question about that bottom Control. Given what the Dev's have said about committing more than one force die when it is not expressly disallowed, does that mean you can commit as many FD as you want for that Control?
2 hours ago, TheSapient said:Another question about that bottom Control. Given what the Dev's have said about committing more than one force die when it is not expressly disallowed, does that mean you can commit as many FD as you want for that Control?
The full text in Disciples of Harmony doesn't say that you can't activate that upgrade multiple times (Seek and Sense both have the "cannot activate multiple times" text in their Control upgrades that revolve around committing Force dice), so I'd say that you could.
From what I understand, you'd still have to commit all those dice at once (and uncommit them all at once as well), but there's nothing stopping you from committing two, three, or even more Force dice to this Control upgrade. Of course, that means those Force dice aren't available for other things (like various Lightsaber Form talents), but that's true of any "commit Force die" effect.
2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:The full text in Disciples of Harmony doesn't say that you can't activate that upgrade multiple times (Seek and Sense both have the "cannot activate multiple times" text in their Control upgrades that revolve around committing Force dice), so I'd say that you could.
From what I understand, you'd still have to commit all those dice at once (and uncommit them all at once as well), but there's nothing stopping you from committing two, three, or even more Force dice to this Control upgrade. Of course, that means those Force dice aren't available for other things (like various Lightsaber Form talents), but that's true of any "commit Force die" effect.
The real danger is they can't be uncommitted until the end of the encounter, you have to roll them with every skill check, and have to use every dark pip that comes up. But that also makes it fun and interesting. The situation is so dangerous that a force user might just give up hope and become a conduit to the force, the dark and the light.
8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:The full text in Disciples of Harmony doesn't say that you can't activate that upgrade multiple times (Seek and Sense both have the "cannot activate multiple times" text in their Control upgrades that revolve around committing Force dice), so I'd say that you could.
From what I understand, you'd still have to commit all those dice at once (and uncommit them all at once as well), but there's nothing stopping you from committing two, three, or even more Force dice to this Control upgrade. Of course, that means those Force dice aren't available for other things (like various Lightsaber Form talents), but that's true of any "commit Force die" effect.
Which is exactly the opposite of the answer Sam Stewart gave in the order66 podcast. Previously when this question was given for enhance brawn and enhance ability , the answer was that unless specified otherwise you could commit more than one die at a time (although doing both brawn and agility is two actions still). This is worded identically to Enhance which would lead you to believe you can commit multiple dice.
When asked in the order 66 podcast Sam answered with the opposite answer, he also got flumuxed by a question I asked with regards to the range upgrades because as written the power works like this.
Flow basic power works on you
Flow upgraded range, now works on everyone in short range, can use magnitude ro remove targets from effect
Ebb, basic power, works on everyone engaged with you, magnitude can remove your friends from the effect.
Ebb,basic power, upgraded with range, works on everyone at zhort range
Ebb threat, and failure upgrades, works on only opponents ar short range, but when upgraded works on everyone,
The way that Sam answered though was that ebb only worked on opponents, and that this would be clarified in the FAQ and it dropped recently with no clarification.
My guess is that ebb works on everyone, and magnitude is used to remove allies from the effect, because if not, magnitude is pretty useless except for the basic power.
Hey Syrath, maybe take a better read of what I posted.
My response was to TheSapient's question was that a PC could commit multiple dice to the Control upgrade in question, since the text for it (much like Enhance's Control upgrades for boosting Brawn and Agility) doesn't say one way or the other, thus falling in line with the default rule that a Force power or upgrade can be activated multiple times unless it directly specifies otherwise. It's just that you can't gradually commit the dice, such as 1 Force die each round, but that if you're going to commit multiple Force dice, you have to commit them all at once in the same Action.
9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:Hey Syrath, maybe take a better read of what I posted.
My response was to TheSapient's question was that a PC could commit multiple dice to the Control upgrade in question, since the text for it (much like Enhance's Control upgrades for boosting Brawn and Agility) doesn't say one way or the other, thus falling in line with the default rule that a Force power or upgrade can be activated multiple times unless it directly specifies otherwise. It's just that you can't gradually commit the dice, such as 1 Force die each round, but that if you're going to commit multiple Force dice, you have to commit them all at once in the same Action.
I completely agreed with you ,Sam Stewart does not agree with either of us, was ultimately what I said. He said, in response to the same question, asked on the order66 podcast, that after looking at the wording (which as you say is identical to the wording enhance uses) , that you can only commit one die to it.
Just for the case you didn't see it in the Dev answerd Questions Section:
Rules Question:
My Question: If a character is using the last ebb/flow control Upgrade "Commit a Force dice to use the remaining Force Rating with every skill check for the remaining encounter" is the character still able to use other Force Powers and Force Talents - like Force Jump or Saber Throw or Move Power, or are those then forbidden (since you can't use 2 different Forcepowers in one check by default)???
And if he is allowed will he have to use every force point that is generated (black and white) with that power or are those powers working out side the ebb/flow control-upgrade and handled normally?
Thanks and Greetings Nightone
Hello Nightone,
Hmmmmm does this mean you can’t use sense defence and sense offended at the same time? (Assume you have 2 or moreFR available)
That Ebb/flow control is just poorly written, and perhaps not well thought out.
3 hours ago, Random Bystander said:Hmmmmm does this mean you can’t use sense defence and sense offended at the same time? (Assume you have 2 or moreFR available)
No, the rules for Ebb/Flow have no impact on that.
52 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:No, the rules for Ebb/Flow have no impact on that.
Rather glad about that or I had been cheating for ages
20 hours ago, Random Bystander said:Hmmmmm does this mean you can’t use sense defence and sense offended at the same time? (Assume you have 2 or moreFR available)
Be aware you can only use it when you commited the dice before activating ebb flow, afterwards you can't commit any further dice!
On 20.2.2018 at 9:54 AM, Nightone said:In effect, they have committed their remaining Force Rating to this power . If your character committed some of their Force rating to other powers before activating Ebb and Flow, those do remain committed as normal.
11 hours ago, Nightone said:Be aware you can only use it when you commited the dice before activating ebb flow, afterwards you can't commit any further dice!
Actually you are missed something in the dev response , the answer you got from the dev was stating if you commit your remaining force dice on the ebb/flow control ability. In that case you would not have any remaining force die to commit anyway. I'll quote the reply you got
On 20/02/2018 at 8:54 AM, Nightone said:If your character is already using their remaining Force rating with every skill check for the remaining encounter, they cannot also use other Force Powers. In effect, they have committed their remaining Force Rating to this power. If your character committed some of their Force rating to other powers before activating Ebb and Flow, those do remain committed as normal.
The first sentence is key here. The point is that if you had remaining force die to commit you could use Sense effects. The way the question appears to have been worded is if you committ all your remaining force dice to the control effect , but then you wouldn't have anything less but what if you didnt, that question isnt answered in this reply.
Note that this response is at odds with Sam Stewart's response in the order66 episode about the power only being able to have 1 die committed. This corresponds with what I originally thought and what @Donovan Morningfire wrote earlier that mutiple dice can be applied to thus. IE if you go RAW and not by Sam Stewart's answer in the podcast.
Sorry if I misinterpret you there @syrath (due to any language barriers from not usin my native language),
but the Ebb/flow control works this way:
You commit ONE force dice to activate the power, afterwards you roll you remaining Force Rating with every check.
Commited Dice are never rolled as long as they are commited! You always roll any force check the Remaining Force Rating!
So a character with force rating 4 will commit one FR and then roll the 3
Remaining Force dice
for the rest of the encounter with every check always using all pips that come up.
He won't be able to commit those 3 dice any further to other powers because:
" In Effect (The important part here) , they have commited the dice to the power!" The "In effect" states clear that the remaining dice are not commited in the sense of the "commitin dice rule" and taken out of the pool, since then you couldn't roll them with any check!
My question to the devs was never intended to be about "to commit any more than one dice to the power" since the "commitment rules are very clear to me" but to if the power cancels out any further use of other force powers, what as Sam answered it does!
sam furthermore states:
that it doesn't chancels out already ongoing effect that got commited force dice beforehead, those still keep working, since those dice weren't actually part of the Remaining Force Rating when activated.
In conclusion since they return to the remaining FR once they are uncommited they get "imprisoned" by the Ebb/flow control and will also not be able to be commited again for the rest of the encounter.
2 hours ago, Nightone said:You commit ONE force dice to activate the power, afterwards you roll you remaining Force Rating with every check.
I just can't get that from the actual text in the book. "Commit FD until the end of the current encounter. For the remainder of the current encounter, the Force user must add FD to all skill checks he makes".
I think if they meant the character had to add all remaining FD to the check, they would say that explicitly. To me it reads that the committed FD is/are what gets rolled. It is true there are no other examples of committed dice being rolled. But there are also no other cases of committing FD and then rolling others for one effect. It also doesn't help that FFG is sloppy in their language. They use these phrases:
"Commit FD (May not be activated multiple times)" - Clearly states only one FD may be committed.
"Commit one or more FD" - Clearly states more than one FD may be committed
"Commit FD. [Certain Effect] per FD committed" - Must mean that more than one FD may be committed
"Commit FD" - Unclear, and more so given that choice not to use one of the other phrasing options.
And it is worse with this Ebb/Flow Control, because FD is used twice. In neither case does it state whether multiple dice are allowed/required. Nor is it clear if they are the SAME FD. The developer answers are not terrible helpful, as they have contradicted themselves and may not even agree with each other on how the power works.
8 hours ago, Nightone said:Sorry if I misinterpret you there @syrath (due to any language barriers from not usin my native language),
but the Ebb/flow control works this way:
You commit ONE force dice to activate the power, afterwards you roll you remaining Force Rating with every check.
that isnt what it says in the book it says you commit a force die (white symbol for the die) and it says you roll a force die (white symbol for the die) on all your skill checks until the end of the encounter. The word remaining is not used anywhere in the description.
Note that this die isnt used in the same manner as a combined force check. Combined force checks are normally actions in themselves you arent performing a skill action, you are performing a forcr ability that is an Enhance combined check that lets you use up to your uncommitted force dice and add your skill dice to the force check, then you generate force points , based on pips rolled you then choose to convert those pips to force points that you can use to power the ability you we re using.
This control effect is entirely different , you commit your die or dice, the same amount of die or dice is then added to all of your future skill checks until the end of the encounter, you cannot uncommit those dice and note that these are not combined checks or even force actions, they are normal skill checks with the added benefit of automatically adding the same amount of force dice that you committed to the check. Once rolled you swap success/advantage directly for any force pips rolled ,which is y our one and only choice in this process once you commit, until the end of the encounter. Note that unlike enhance you generate no force points and you get to use both black and white pips for the effect automatically, again there is no choice with this and you generate the same conflict, and strain if you are a light side force user or dark side force user.
The force die has effectively become part of your future skill checks.
As normal though any uncommitted force dice could still be used for other powers as you are not activating an effect other than the action you commit the force die in the first place.