Ok so, I've seen this movie twice, and I still don't understand how/when Snoke "got his claws into Kylo" as Luke puts it. I mean, how did they meet?! It's assumed that Kylo spent a significant amount of time with Luke, and he's only supposed to be what, mid 20's at most? So he was a teenager when he was with Luke, and at that point Snoke had apparently already started to corrupt him?

.....how?! Where?! This is the son of one of the more influential people in the entire galactic republic, and he's what, just hanging out with the evil dark force leader of the secretive First Order?!

I just, it makes no sense to me. I don't care that they didn't establish how Snoke became the leader of the FO itself, but it just doesn't make any sense to me about how they met. It's never explained at all, even mentioned or hinted at. Nobody makes a comment about how Snoke used to be a senator or something, before they learned he was really an evil creature or something.

Did they gut this plot point so they could sell it to me in a second purchase, via a book or something? Because it bugs me every time I think about it.

If they did parse it out so they could sell it separately, then what was the reasoning they gave? I don't plan on buying any of the books, but I'd like to know this issue, assuming it's addressed at all.

Snoke was good at mental manipulation, that might be what was meant.

2 minutes ago, Kesendeja said:

Snoke was good at mental manipulation, that might be what was meant.

Are you referring to his mind link thing? Yeah I've got my suspicions that that was even him. We have precedent before LJ that two people can link to each other and communicate to some degree. We see it twice in Empire, between Vader/Luke, and Luke/Leia.

But that's still a really vague thing to hint at though, given the line.

Yeah, the timeline seems a little.... wonky. According to this timeline , Kylo was born in 5 ABY. The destruction of Luke's Jedi order occurred between 28-34 ABY. The current year is 34 ABY.

23 minutes ago, JorArns said:

Yeah, the timeline seems a little.... wonky. According to this timeline , Kylo was born in 5 ABY. The destruction of Luke's Jedi order occurred between 28-34 ABY. The current year is 34 ABY.

Adam Driver is 34 years old. So he is even a little older than Kylo.

7 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

Adam Driver is 34 years old. So he is even a little older than Kylo.

I had a longer post than that... Not sure what happened to it, but his age isn't what seems odd here to me. But then there isn't all that much information around (at least not that I can find) about most of the OP's questions.

38 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Are you referring to his mind link thing? Yeah I've got my suspicions that that was even him. We have precedent before LJ that two people can link to each other and communicate to some degree. We see it twice in Empire, between Vader/Luke, and Luke/Leia.

But that's still a really vague thing to hint at though, given the line.

I thought it was obvious...didn't seem vague at all to me. It was like, "Oh, okay, that's how Snoke was communicating with Ben Solo."

It hasn't been defined yet. It won't be defined until at least the script & story for episode IX are done - as it might be relevant to the movie. Once episode IX's story is determined, we'll either see something in IX, in novels or comics leading up to IX, or in novels/comics/whatever after IX.

They very carefully haven't mentioned much about Ben and Luke in the period between episode VI and VII; I'd guess that's to leave their options open, in case someone has a great idea later.

Also, there's nothing that says anybody knew that Snoke was an evil Force user, or even Supreme Leader of the First Order, when he first encountered Ben. They might not have even heard of the First Order as such yet; the timing of that stuff is pretty vague, AFAIK. Snoke might've been posing as just some friendly dude from the Outer Rim, using that Dark Side slyness and cunning to avoid notice from the Skywalkers and others. The entire Jedi Order, including some centuries-old Jedi Masters, didn't know they were working with and taking suggestions from the Sith Lord for 13 years; it's possible that Snoke might have snookered Leia and Luke somehow.

Heck, Snoke was clearly afraid of Skywalker; it may be that some of the Supreme's scars and such came from facing Luke directly at some point.

12 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I thought it was obvious...didn't seem vague at all to me. It was like, "Oh, okay, that's how Snoke was communicating with Ben Solo."

But they never actually state that anywhere. Inference isn't confirmation.

11 minutes ago, coyote6 said:

Also, there's nothing that says anybody knew that Snoke was an evil Force user, or even Supreme Leader of the First Order, when he first encountered Ben. They might not have even heard of the First Order as such yet; the timing of that stuff is pretty vague, AFAIK. Snoke might've been posing as just some friendly dude from the Outer Rim

Right, I know that, but they never say one way or another. They simply bank on the fact that we, the audience, already know who Snoke is from Awakens, and that he was with Kylo somehow. Which is the core of my issue.

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

But they never actually state that anywhere. Inference isn't confirmation.

They already exposit quite a lot in this movie I'm glad they didn't for this plot point.

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

Right, I know that, but they never say one way or another. They simply bank on the fact that we, the audience, already know who Snoke is from Awakens, and that he was with Kylo somehow. Which is the core of my issue.

It doesn't matter for TFA or TLJ when and how Snoke got to Ben; he did, it's done, and that's led to the current situation of Ben Solo being the evil apprentice. If the how and/or when somehow matter to Episode IX, we'll find out then. But since Snoke is dead, and Carrie Fisher is gone (& thus we likely won't see Leia much, if at all), I don't see how that backstory would fit into episode IX. So it'll probably get explored in a book or comic, either before or after episode IX.

Besides, before the prequels, the how and why of Palpatine corrupting Anakin wasn't as important as the fact that he simply had. Sure you wondered, but no one lost too much sleep over it.

9 hours ago, LadySkywalker said:

Besides, before the prequels, the how and why of Palpatine corrupting Anakin wasn't as important as the fact that he simply had. Sure you wondered, but no one lost too much sleep over it.

No but I had no previous established canon for it to contradict. You point out before the prequels.

That doesn't bother me as much because it wasn't one of the questions that JJ set up and Rían fails to answer, though that deserves its own thread. It's just implied he fell. I have a feeling though that it would have had at least a cursory explanation of JJ was allowed to direct and write this film.

I would go with Luke invited Snoke to his temple and they worked together until Luke figured out he was all dark side and evil then Luke kicked him out and the damage was done.

6 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I would go with Luke invited Snoke to his temple and they worked together until Luke figured out he was all dark side and evil then Luke kicked him out and the damage was done.

Not likely. From what I’ve gleaned from various reviews of the Aftermath trilogy, Snoke was apparently mentally manipulating Ben even while the boy was still in the womb.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

No but I had no previous established canon for it to contradict. You point out before the prequels.

And it doesn't contradict canon now. So...?

14 hours ago, Shlambate said:

That doesn't bother me as much because it wasn't one of the questions that JJ set up and Rían fails to answer, though that deserves its own thread. It's just implied he fell. I have a feeling though that it would have had at least a cursory explanation of JJ was allowed to direct and write this film.

It's possible it might be touched upon in Episode 9, how it was exactly that Snoke managed to twist Ben Solo into accepting the dark side.

Then again, skimming through Wookieepedia's article on Kylo Ren, he didn't have the happiest of childhoods, so he might well have started on the path to the dark side as a way to rebel against his parents, the setting's equivalent of a teenager going through a goth/punk phase. Except that generally speaking going to the dark side is a one way ticket (in the new canon thus far, Vader seems to be the sole exception). Snoke comes along, telepathically whispering exactly what Ben wants to hear when he's at his most psychologically vulnerable, and it goes from there. Which if that is the case, also had the effect of locking Kylo's emotional maturity at mid to late teens, making him a very troubled soul indeed.

Heck, Leia and Luke's concerns that Snoke corrupted Ben could just be them passing the buck and not taking blame for failing him.

3 hours ago, kaosoe said:

Heck, Leia and Luke's concerns that Snoke corrupted Ben could just be them passing the buck and not taking blame for failing him.

Well, if the 90's EU was anything to go by, the Luke botching the job and having promising students of go dark is just par for the course. Probably having to do with Luke (a novice instructor) trying to teach too many students at once.

On 1.1.2018 at 1:40 AM, KungFuFerret said:

But they never actually state that anywhere. Inference isn't confirmation.

I thought Snoke said so, or at least hinted heavily at it, when talking to Rey in his little throne den... but you may be right. I'll just have to watch it again.

1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

I thought Snoke said so, or at least hinted heavily at it, when talking to Rey in his little throne den... but you may be right. I'll just have to watch it again.

He stated he was the one linking their minds, which doesn't automatically mean that's how he was talking to Ben back in the day. Nobody but you know, the evil dark overlord even hinted at it, so I am somewhat skeptical of what he said. Besides, he's not the brightest bulb, considering he was actively reading Ben's mind, and was too dumb to realize that he was double playing him to kill him. I mean, Palpatine at least has the excuse of Vader literally being behind him at that point, and him being totally focused on zotting Luke over and over. Snoke was in Ben's head, reading his thoughts and Ben was able to still trick him.

But again, even if he is the one that linked them, that doesn't mean that's how he met Ben, we have zero idea on that. Fans can infer a billion different things, just look at all the crazy fan theories. So if the only support is "well they didn't directly refute it" then anything could be equally justified So I'm going to go with the medichlorians were lonely, and set up a biological wifi, hey, it's possible. (not really suggesting that)

On 1/1/2018 at 4:00 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Not likely. From what I’ve gleaned from various reviews of the Aftermath trilogy, Snoke was apparently mentally manipulating Ben even while the boy was still in the womb.

I actually read the books, and that wasn't my impression at all. My impression was that Leia was either having premonitions about threats to her unborn child, or having anxiety-induced nightmares based on her father's history and things she learned from her brother that just happen to foreshadow Ben's fate. She also senses that he's going to be strong in the Force. Those bits are about Leia's burgeoning untrained Force abilities, not Snoke.

Seems like there's an interesting story to tell here. If it isn't filled in in one of the movies, I may work it into my game at some point.