@Stan Fresh

I've read the threads and I'm not particularly convinced. The main arguments as I recall them were:

It's heavily luck- or skill-dependent, you can't plan for it: It didn't feel like luck in the movie. Holdo executed the maneuver (on her own, without any bridge officers, mechanics or other personnel!) relatively calmly and Poe knew what she was going to do the moment he saw it.
It only works at a range where you can be shot at by enemy guns: So does almost all space combat when it's actual combat rather than a turkey shoot.
It's extremely ressource-intensive: No, one cruiser against a fleet is an absolute bargain (as long as you can afford to lose that cruiser).
It's unethical to implement this on a larger scale due to the necessary human sacrifices: So use droid brains and call the whole thing a large missile rather than a ship.

But we can certainly agree to disagree there. For me, it's a flaw among a number of flaws in a mostly great movie.

12 minutes ago, Cifer said:

@Stan Fresh

I've read the threads and I'm not particularly convinced. The main arguments as I recall them were:

It's heavily luck- or skill-dependent, you can't plan for it: It didn't feel like luck in the movie. Holdo executed the maneuver (on her own, without any bridge officers, mechanics or other personnel!) relatively calmly and Poe knew what she was going to do the moment he saw it.
It only works at a range where you can be shot at by enemy guns: So does almost all space combat when it's actual combat rather than a turkey shoot.
It's extremely ressource-intensive: No, one cruiser against a fleet is an absolute bargain (as long as you can afford to lose that cruiser).
It's unethical to implement this on a larger scale due to the necessary human sacrifices: So use droid brains and call the whole thing a large missile rather than a ship.

But we can certainly agree to disagree there. For me, it's a flaw among a number of flaws in a mostly great movie.

Well, frak...my memory sucks sometimes.

Reading your post, I started to wonder.... Poe seemed to know her by reputation and recognized what she was doing, so maybe - even though she couldn’t do it multiple times personally - that kind of move is her “Picard Maneuver.” You know...something that appears to be a typical, simple offshoot of the particular franchise’s spacefaring technology that looks easy to replicate, could be advantageous in battle, but is used precisely once in the “present day” because...reasons.

So I pulled up her Wookipedia entry to see if it mentioned anything about her past reputation.

How did I miss that she’s one of the supporting characters in Leia, Princess of Alderaan?

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Wait? What?

He is applying relativistic energy requirements to reach that speed and thus relativistic kinetic energy to a problem which is based around the ability to ignore relativistic effects, the fundamental base of going to lightspeed.

@Nytwyng

Psst... if any of the TrueFans read that, they might notice that the middle-aged female admiral with the non-standard hair-colour isn't even straight, or as is proper for non-sexy women functionally asexual, and the resulting nerd-rage explosion could easily kill 1.5 First Order fleets!

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

He is applying relativistic energy requirements to reach that speed and thus relativistic kinetic energy to a problem which is based around the ability to ignore relativistic effects, the fundamental base of going to lightspeed.

As noted before, I'm happy to ignore that kind of thing as long as the movie doesn't press my nose onto the destructive potential.

4 minutes ago, Cifer said:

@Nytwyng

Psst... if any of the TrueFans read that, they might notice that the middle-aged female admiral with the non-standard hair-colour isn't even straight, or as is proper for non-sexy women functionally asexual, and the resulting nerd-rage explosion could easily kill 1.5 First Order fleets!

Ah, at least one of them is already here tossing around epithets about her based on her gender and appearance, what’s a little more.

I’m just surprised that, with all of the “Hey, Crait was established in Leia!” that I saw, there didn’t seem to be anything similar about Holdo. If I’d remembered her from there, I likely wouldn’t have suspected her to be revealed as a First Order double agent. And I even remember thinking, while listening to the audiobook months ago, “Hmmm...methinks this is a character we’re going to see show up elsewhere. Too much attention and detail in establishing her for her to just be a one-off character.”

14 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

“Hey, Crait was established in Leia!”

It also gets shown in a comic released just a week ago, by the way.

Awful art, though.

17 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It also gets shown in a comic released just a week ago, by the way.

Awful art, though.

*sigh*

I love my comic store, but their newest in-store subscription software apparently doesn’t allow for a full category of books like “all Star Wars” or “all Superman.” So, one-shots like that sometimes get missed. This is one of those times. Guess I’m stopping somewhere on the way home to pick it up.

22 hours ago, 2P51 said:

The story is one great big wtf is everyone doing? Why are we jumping to no where? If we have the galaxy why aren't we putting ships in front of the enemy to stop them? If we can't catch them, why the **** are we following them? We apparently don't dare attack with our fighters. Why are we breaking off attacks? Can't cover from who? Ship's whose screens we can't apparently penetrate with our weapons so we're providing no cover, or resistance fighters that aren't there because we blew up the launch bay. Why would Hux care? He hates Kylo.

Well, just to try and respond to this Gish-gallop...

Why are we jumping to no where?

Who was jumping to nowhere? The Resistance Fleet (RF)? They were jumping to Crait, where both Leia and Holdo knew there was an old Rebel base. But they jumped to a spot considerably outside the system itself, probably so that the FO fleet couldn't "calculate all possible destinations along their last known trajectory". They didn't count on the FO fleet jumping onto their tail ten seconds later.

If we have the galaxy why aren't we putting ships in front of the enemy to stop them?

Honestly, this has been addressed so many times I'm sick of reading and writing about it.

In brief:

1) They didn't "have the galaxy". They were moving to take control and part of that involved eliminating not only the RF, but hope from the galaxy, as explicitly stated by Snoke.

2) The RF wasn't traveling on a straight-line highway where you could set up a police blockade down the road. Space is huge, and the FO fleet had, what a dozen ships at most? Even sending half of them a micro-jump ahead (assuming one can plot a microjump that accurately) would have six star destroyers covering an area about three times the size of an entire solar system. They were on their tails, they knew they were nearly out of fuel, why on Earth would you bother sending the ships ahead??

If we can't catch them, why the **** are we following them?

Seriously? How many times did the FO officers explicitly mention the fact that the RF was running out of fuel? They knew this. They blew one, then two of the RF ships out of the stars, and were just waiting for the Raddus to run out of fuel.

We apparently don't dare attack with our fighters.

They did attack with fighters. And lost most of them.

Why are we breaking off attacks?

The fighter attacks? Because when you're going to catch these guys in a couple of hours, at no risk to anyone, why lose a bunch of fighters? I'm pretty sure Hux isn't paying anyone by the hour.

Can't cover from who?

From the gun turrets and fighters of the Resistance Fleet. The FO had no idea that all the Resistance fighters had been destroyed.

Ship's whose screens we can't apparently penetrate with our weapons so we're providing no cover,

*sob* They couldn't penetrate the shields at that range, which was explicitly stated on a number of occasions.

or resistance fighters that aren't there because we blew up the launch bay.

See above.

Why would Hux care? He hates Kylo.

Oh, I dunno. Maybe because Kylo's boss just appeared to him in a giant hologram and threw him around the bridge with the Force and Hux didn't want to piss him off any more? He only made a move to kill Kylo after Snoke was dead.

These long replies are nice, but all they do is confirm the film is riddled with plot holes. Not plot holes don't require answers, plot holes do.

12 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

These long replies are nice, but all they do is confirm the film is riddled with plot holes. Not plot holes don't require answers, plot holes do.

Actually, they don't. About 90% of your questions which I answered were answered within the movie. The only speculation was the bit about them jumping to the outside of the Crait system. Literally every other question you raise is only a plot hole if you didn't listen.

I might have missed it if someone else raised it, in which case I apologise.

But nobody seems to have considered the possibility that the ramming manouvre only worked because she hit the targets as she jumped to hyperspace.

Secondly, I just ran across this article, which should fairly neatly dispose of the "hyperspace planet-killer" argument.

Spaceship Collisions

I think I’ve found a flaw in TLJ...it assumes to much about its audiences intelligence.

In tbe world where reality TV exists maybe films should be...simplified, with cue cards and such.

6 hours ago, 2P51 said:

These long replies are nice, but all they do is confirm the film is riddled with plot holes. Not plot holes don't require answers, plot holes do.

Seriously? You ask questions and the fact that someone can answer them is proof of plot holes? This is beyond ridiculous.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Seriously? You ask questions and the fact that someone can answer them is proof of plot holes? This is beyond ridiculous.

Which only proves his point that the movie is ridiculous complex! How else could there be a movie which if you don't pay attention might need answers from people who actually have watched the movie.
Drunk movie watching for the win!

I once hated Moonrise Kingdom with a burning passion only to find that when I rewatched it when I was sober it was a masterpiece. ??

8 hours ago, Daronil said:

Spaceship Collisions

This massive lack of understanding basic physics and lack of observation really hurts.
Still, at least he did not try to apply near infinitive energy from near lightspeed collisions. At least something. ;-)

49 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

This massive lack of understanding basic physics and lack of observation really hurts.
Still, at least he did not try to apply near infinitive energy from near lightspeed collisions. At least something. ;-)

That's why I was wondering if the "Holdo Manouvre" (am I the only person who keeps accidentally typing "Hondo"? ) only works right at the point of the jump. As the ship is doing its massive acceleration up to lightspeed, and just before it enters hyperspace. In other words, you have to be right on top of your target to make this work - once you're actually in hyperspace, you'll just get vapourised and your target won't even know about it, because you're just going to hit its mass-shadow, not the thing itself.

It would explain why it's a manouvre of only absolute last, desperate resort, and why it isn't used regularly - it's just too **** hard to pull off. Like Han Solo bringing the Falcon out of hyperspace within a planetary shield's bubble, it's something only very few can do.

By the way: I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but what was the problem with the physics in the article?

29 minutes ago, Daronil said:

It would explain why it's a manouvre of only absolute last, desperate resort, and why it isn't used regularly - it's just too **** hard to pull off. Like Han Solo bringing the Falcon out of hyperspace within a planetary shield's bubble, it's something only very few can do.

Yet Holdo manages it without a bridge crew. Or any crew at all.

Two triumphs

5 hours ago, HorusArisen said:

I think I’ve found a flaw in TLJ...it assumes to much about its audiences intelligence.

In tbe world where reality TV exists maybe films should be...simplified, with cue cards and such.

Honestly, I find it darkly hilarious that folks complain when a film or TV show spoon-feeds them information, and then turn around and whine worse that Anakin and Luke combined when a film or TV show forces them to engage their brains and pay attention.

I've said it before elsewhere, and I'll say it again here... the Star Wars fandom taken as a whole is one seriously screwed-up bunch of meatheads that only exist to be angry at the franchise they claim to love.

There seems to be a tendency where “fans” want to establish dominance to such an extent that they feel a need to show they are somehow more attentive, smarter and knowledgeable than the people who are in possession of the franchise.

There more, so much more: https://imgur.com/a/6smO9

5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Drunk movie watching for the win!

Oh please, son. I come from Seattle. We only watch our movies with the finest strain of marijuana.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Star Wars fandom taken as a whole is one seriously screwed-up bunch of meatheads that only exist to be angry at the franchise they claim to love.

You need to cast your net MUCH wider, man.

4 hours ago, Daronil said:

By the way: I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but what was the problem with the physics in the article?

Lack of understanding of relative speeds within frame of reference and how this affects kinetic energy when hitting objects which operate within the same frame of reference. And he ignores his own observation in the movies, which show a relative low difference in velocities between all objects involved in the space battles.

Though he does ignores conservation of energy as well when he makes this star trek warp collision. I will not complain that he does not get warp engines either ... as those change space around you and do not accelerate yourself at all … thus no increase of kinetic energy. The reason why I am not complaining about that is that with our current understanding of physics ... there should be building up enough destructive force on the front of each warp ship that the borg cube should be destroyed anyway from just that

3 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

There seems to be a tendency where “fans” want to establish dominance to such an extent that they feel a need to show they are somehow more attentive, smarter and knowledgeable than the people who are in possession of the franchise.

But why? Isn't it so much more fun to do the exact same thing while actually connecting the dots and claiming to be smarter and more knowledgeable than other viewers?