I feel the original IGN article was more about clickbaiting than legitimate conversation.

Such is modern net journalism. Why research and write a serious article when you can get more pageviews by just writing something counter to a current in thing?

22 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

I feel the original IGN article was more about clickbaiting than legitimate conversation.

Such is modern net journalism. Why research and write a serious article when you can get more pageviews by just writing something counter to a current in thing?

I blame the guys who click that ****.
If someone pays me to slap him in the face ... well ... I would fall to the level of Forbes and IGN as well … nah, I wouldn't, but you get my point.

58 minutes ago, Talkie Toaster said:

All the 'Why weren't the First Order efficient and rational in their pursuit of the rebels?' questions seem to miss the point that they're the First Order. If they were sane and sensible they wouldn't have intercepted with the Supremacy. They wouldn't have made the Supremacy. Or Starkiller Base. They wanted a grand gesture where the resistance made a futile struggle before losing hope and being defeated by Snoke's flagship, so (as a dark-sider and evil overlord) he could revel in the fear and despair he was causing.

And that is backed up in the movie itself too. Snoke makes it a point to state flat out that he wants to wipe out all hope in the galaxy.

They're Empire cosplayers. Hux is a child playing dress-up.

Even the other officers point out his incompetence.

And yet Snoke put him in charge.

The First Order is not about making reasonable, productive, or healthy decisions.

See also: the Third Reich.

14 hours ago, mulletcheese said:

So the first order had a choice to wipe out the resistance today or tomorrow and they chose tomorrow. It makes no sense, especially after hux was almost killed for delaying the end the resistance for a few minutes.

I think this is one of the reasons why the critic's score is so different than the viewers score. A film critic doesn't usually have to wonder about physics or the in-universe technology and can miss plot holes and errors that are obvious to some star wars fans. A SW fan can watch the same film and be left wondering why are they dropping bombs in space, Why doesn't the FO make a jump or what happened to all the OT alien races

Oh, you mean like how Tarkin decided to go all slow and snail-pace with the Death Star to destroy the rebel base instead of sending a few Star Destroyers there much faster to blow it up? Or even sending TIE-fighters to do strafing runs?
But instead, he chose to lumber ahead in his slow-as-heck Death Star?

Yeah, the Empire was full of arrogance, and so is the New Order.

(Oh and why was nobody asking this question in the OT? Why doesn't he send out star destroyers or TIE's? They were known entities in that movie, both had appeared before that battle. So why didn't he send those ahead, since they seem much faster than the Death Star? They could have pinned the Resistance fighters down on the planet at the very least)

So much of todays audience seems to revel in nitpicking.
Not only that, but they do it from the view of "what would I do in that situation" and furthermore they do that from a position of knowing all the information (regardless of if the movie characters know that information or not) and having perfect 20/20 hindsight.

It's often "why would they do X when they could do Y?" type questions, which are largely irrelevant anyway because there's always a ton of options on how to handle any given situation and just because a movie doesn't do it the way a viewer would do it doesn't mean they do it the wrong way.

These people would really hate The Blue Ruin and The Green Room. Both movies that show that in stressful situation or situations that are new to someone, people tend to make mistakes.

Why didn't the First Order do a micro-jump to intercept the Rebels? Because Hux didn't want to. He wanted to chase them down and destroy them one by one. Why? I don't know, he's a lunatic!
Why didn't Holdo tell Poe about her plan? Because she didn't want to. Why not? Because she didn't like him and didn't have to tell him. *but if she told him, she would have avoided the mutiny!* Sure, but she didn't know he would do that.
Why didn't Luke come to Crait himself instead of projecting himself there? Because he didn't want to. Why not? I don't know, he's a grumpy old man who does things the way he wants to. Maybe it was because he wanted to die on this planet instead of on Crait, maybe it was because he wanted to show Kylo that he could pull off this power that would kill him. Maybe because he's a grumpy old man and like most grumpy old men he doesn't want to have to actually get up from his chair (or rock, in this case)?

These are stupid, nitpicky questions.
You can ruin pretty much any movie if you start doing this.

Why didn't Jack Torrance just hack his way through the labyrinth in The Shining? Why didn't he just put on warmer clothes before going out there? Why did he even go out, when he knew his son would freeze to death in the cold?

Like I said... you could do this to pretty much every movie.

But if you do, you ruin the movie.

Unless it's something blatantly obvious (like why didn't the Empire shoot the escape pod in Ep. IV, despite there being no life readings? Like they say in one of the parodies "what? are you in charge of the laser cannon budget?"), there's really no reason to start asking those questions.

19 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

BTW. if you jump ahead of a ship which has been accelerating for hours on sublight engines you will not achieve much, because those ships would fly past your range in an instant, while you just have reseted your sublight speed to close to zero and would never be able to catch up again.

I keep seeing people claim that the hyperspace jump ahead of the fleet by even a few of the FO ships would have overshot them by a ton. What’s bad about that? Good do it. Overshoot the **** out of it. Then plot a course back to exactly where you want to be. Who cares if you overshoot in the beginning, you can still turn around and jump back in somewhere along the projected course. We’ve seen Anakin in TCW jump in to a system directly inside a ships shields. We have seen the Falcon jump into a planet. There is no reason they couldn’t have done this. Now if you want to hold the opinion that they didn’t think they needed to, well that’s a possibility. Except, Kylo is portrayed as the galaxy’s most impatient force user....

Let’s face some facts with this movie. There are a ton of holes in its plot. You can think what you want about them, that’s your right to your own opinion. But as fans we should ask for more, really. It’s not that hard to have someone look over the script for this kind of blatant problem and either add in a subtle reference to it, or change it.

Imagine if we had seen a scene where Holdo is in a senior Officers briefing, without demoted Poe, and without hearing her plan we are instead informed, “remember, don’t share the details of this plan, we don’t know where the enemy might be getting their intel and we can’t trust anyone.” Simple and effective.

What if, Holdo’s plan called for the ships to slingshot around the planet, and while they are behind its bulk, they use the line of sight issues to drop craft to the surface? The ship comes back around and the FO targets it, but it accelerates (at sublight) and rams Snooks ship. They could have still had their double cross reveal the plan, and the battle take place etc.

These are only some of the many plot holes that could have been simply addressed.

Remember the people complaining about the B-17 bombs falling? Have a pilot mention the bombs as magnetic or better yet, place them in a carousel and have it propel them down and out like in the TIE bombers. Simple things.

It’s not that it wasn’t an exciting movie. It was. It just needed more polish before going out to clean up what should have been obvious flaws so that people could be talking about performances and lines rather than plot points.

As a fan I feel that the introduction of new strategies and technologies etc. need to be considered for their impact on the greater universe. As many have pointed out, you open a can of worms when you introduce FTL ships as missiles, or active tracking through hyperspace, or communications while in hyperspace, or hyperspace jumps into planetary atmospheres etc.

I don’t want to argue these points. I’m sure there are rebuttals that exist, I’ve read them from quite a few TLJ apologists and I disagree with them, as you disagree with my issues. Let’s just all agree we want the best for the universe and hope that such obvious missteps will be avoided in IX.

3 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

These people would really hate The Blue Ruin and The Green Room. Both movies that show that in stressful situation or situations that are new to someone, people tend to make mistakes.

Best two movies of the last five years in their genre. Jeremy Saulnier should be as big as The Coen brothers if there were any justice.

25 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

I don’t want to argue these points. I’m sure there are rebuttals that exist, I’ve read them from quite a few TLJ apologists and I disagree with them, as you disagree with my issues. Let’s just all agree we want the best for the universe and hope that such obvious missteps will be avoided in IX.

The problem seems to be is tgat you want to makers of the movie do all the thinking for you. These are not “plot holes” these are things you need spelled out in excruciating detail when there is no necessity for the filmmakers to do so.

Why would they explain how bombs fall on screen? It shows them falling.

Why would they need to have Holdo speak the words when her actions are crystal clear?

Show don’t tell.

As Odball stated nitpicking is the antithesis to enjoyment of movies. I am sure that if Pulp Fiction came out today there would be people complaining about not being shown what was in the briefcase.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

The problem seems to be is tgat you want to makers of the movie do all the thinking for you. These are not “plot holes” these are things you need spelled out in excruciating detail when there is no necessity for the filmmakers to do so.

Why would they explain how bombs fall on screen? It shows them falling.

Why would they need to have Holdo speak the words when her actions are crystal clear?

Show don’t tell.

As Odball stated nitpicking is the antithesis to enjoyment of movies. I am sure that if Pulp Fiction came out today there would be people complaining about not being shown what was in the briefcase.

Show me how the bombs fall in zero G? Yes, that is what I said. Show me. Because what was shown was not consistent with showing or telling me. I can invent reasons, as we have people doing ever since the movie came out, but what I asked for was indeed to show me.

Take for example the first scene in Firefly when they go to lay explosives on the hull of a ship. They use a gel so that the charge will ignite in zero G. I was not told anything, but I saw it. Your argument actually makes my point and I thank you for it.

The bombs fell. Period.

They showed you they fell. Why would you need anything more than that? Seriously?

There was gravity in the ship so they would continue to fall once on their trajectory.

To be frank, your idea of what we should have seen would have been a terrible movie to watch for me. I don’t need these things spelled out for me. Xwings bank, bombs fall, there is sound in space, laserbeams shoot out of a handle and stop after 3 yards to form a sword. That is what star wars is.

59 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Show me how the bombs fall in zero G? Yes, that is what I said. Show me. Because what was shown was not consistent with showing or telling me.

The bombs start out under Earth-level gravity on the ship. Why in the whole wide world of sports would they stop moving once they leave the confines of the ship?

It's that kind of nonsensical, willfully blind complaint that has people dismissive of much of the criticism here. Either you haven't thought through what you saw, or you're not being honest about it.

1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

Show me how the bombs fall in zero G? Yes, that is what I said. Show me. Because what was shown was not consistent with showing or telling me. I can invent reasons, as we have people doing ever since the movie came out, but what I asked for was indeed to show me.

Well... the bombs were launched out of the rack and continued along that trajectory. Do you seriously want them to explain momentum to you?

Regarding that Battlefront 2 bit

1 hour ago, Talkie Toaster said:

Well... the bombs were launched out of the rack and continued along that trajectory. Do you seriously want them to explain momentum to you?

How do all these planets not fall into their suns!? It makes no sense! It's never explained in the movie!

Regarding Poe and Holdo...

There's something in real-world militaries called "The Chain of Command."

Holdo mentions that one of Leia's last actions was to demote Poe to the rank of Captain, pretty much removing him from being part of the senior command staff. So she was under zero obligation to tell him anything. And if Poe were a sensible soldier instead of a cocky hotshot, he might have realized that Holdo didn't owe him squat, especially after his last command action had left the Resistance's fighter compliment depleted and their bombers entirely destroyed.

Now, if Poe had been sensible (at which point, he really wouldn't have been Poe), he'd have gone to Holdo with the suspicion of how the First Order was tracking them, that they had a contact that maybe help disable the tracking long enough for them to get away. You know, the sort of thing a properly-trained military officer (of which Poe was before joining the Resistance) should be doing when they have information the senior command staff might not have.

Much as I might like Poe as a character (to quote GM Chris, you could have a beer with Poe), a lot of this is ultimately his fault... and was a point of the movie that he comes to understand this a bit better. Whether he truly overcomes it or not is up to the next film.

That is the point of this entire plot, isn’t it?

we are indeed to like Poe and to sympathize with his frustration and anger at being treated the way he is but eventually, once we find out he ****** up, we needed to step back and understand why he was in the wrong. He does. In fact it is one of the most obvious learning moments in the flick.

I guess the lesson goes over the head of some and for some it is mostly because the one supplying the lesson is a woman.

Personally, for me, Star Wars physics are Star Wars physics, and more generally, movie physics are movie physics. Neither need to realistic for movie experience to be enjoyable, as long as there is internal continuity and logic to things. As SW RPG, SW movies work more on rule of cool, than realism. And I'm happy with that. Though, I understand there are different tastes, as there are different people. I'm a bit sad for everyone who didn't like the movie, because I'd like everyone to like it, but that is impossible, as people expected different things, and have different tastes. Star wars is so large cultural phenomenon that no matter what kind of movie (or book, or comic) is made, some will love it and some will hate it.

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Much as I might like Poe as a character (to quote GM Chris, you could have a beer with Poe), a lot of this is ultimately his fault... and was a point of the movie that he comes to understand this a bit better. Whether he truly overcomes it or not is up to the next film.

You said it well. It was part of both Poe's and Holdo's character arcs. Holdo had her redeption on her sacrifice, but IMO Poe didn't get full redemption yet. He had some character growth, and hopefully gets more in future. That might have been Poe's low point in trilogy. Maybe he gets more heroic moments in next movie.

On the topic of Rey's parents...

I personally like that she's not some member of a secret/hidden legacy of legendary Force users. Which if you stop and consider it, that was true of just about every other member of the Jedi Order prior to the Order's destruction in RotS. After all, if the Jedi were generally forbidden from marrying and having families, that means they're not producing new generations of Force-sensitive children, and since the number of Force-sensitive children didn't vanish decades or centuries ago, that means they had to come from somewhere. Kenobi and Mace Windu were both "nobodies" in terms of parental legacy, and yet rose to become powerful and respected Jedi Masters.

I don't know if I'd take Kylo's words as 100% gospel (he may well have pulled that from Rey's subconscious, as all she really knows is that her parents never came back after selling her to Unkar Plutt on Jakku) and added the bit about selling her for beer money on his own as a misguided way to help her accept his belief that the past needs to be burned down and wiped away.

Which is kind of a theme in this movie, is that one shouldn't cling overly much to the past. Rey was finally able to let go of her past and her childhood desire of being reunited with her long-gone family, Luke was able to move past his shame and self-doubt to once again be the hero that he'd once been (and for a brief moment being the Jedi he was meant to be), Finn getting past his blind hatred of the First Order and black-and-white view of the galaxy. Kylo also learned to let go of the past (such as his obsession with emulating Vader), but simply took it to the unhealthy extreme of wanting to destroy the past entirely rather than just moving past it.

9 minutes ago, kkuja said:

You said it well. It was part of both Poe's and Holdo's character arcs. Holdo had her redeption on her sacrifice, but IMO Poe didn't get full redemption yet. He had some character growth, and hopefully gets more in future. That might have been Poe's low point in trilogy. Maybe he gets more heroic moments in next movie.

Thanks.

Honestly, I think every one of the major characters hit a low point in this film, hero and villain alike. Which was very much the point, though where it leads and who's able to move past the despair of hitting that low point remains to be seen. Finn and Rey are probably the two that are best off, having already made significant strides in rebounding from their respective low points. Sadly, we won't get to see how it plays out for Leia (now having lost her entire family) due to the untimely passing of Carrie Fisher.

8 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

Why didn't Luke come to Crait himself instead of projecting himself there? Because he didn't want to. Why not? I don't know, he's a grumpy old man who does things the way he wants to. Maybe it was because he wanted to die on this planet instead of on Crait, maybe it was because he wanted to show Kylo that he could pull off this power that would kill him. Maybe because he's a grumpy old man and like most grumpy old men he doesn't want to have to actually get up from his chair (or rock, in this case)?

Also because he said that he was never going to leave the planet, and this way he didn't break his word, but still helped.

I figured he wanted to appear to Kylo the way he last did.

He also would have no physical way of knowing where they were... only through a force connection to his sister was he able to get where he needed to be.

Also, Luke's X-wing had been sitting underwater for years, and he had no astromech; it's not clear he could have physically gotten anywhere useful in time.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:24 AM, mulletcheese said:

Like Han jumping inside a planetary shield

From several light years away.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:24 AM, mulletcheese said:

Ray arriving at Snoke's ship

From several light years away.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:24 AM, mulletcheese said:

Finn returning to the fleet.

From many many many light years away.

We've never seen precision microjumps before. Simply turning on and turning off the hyperdrive - just the time that it takes you to read that sentence - you'll have overshot the target by a bajillion miles.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:24 AM, mulletcheese said:

once speed has been gained you would have to use reverse thrust (brake) to lose it because there is to atmosphere in space to slow the ship down

You do realize that you're talking about Star Wars, right. The same universe where starfighters handle just like spitfires and zeros. You run out of gas, you're going to coast to a stop because that's how it works.

On 1/1/2018 at 6:27 AM, mulletcheese said:

A SW fan can watch the same film and be left wondering why are they dropping bombs in space,

Again, that's not how the universe works. In a setting where the climax of a movie is cribbed directly from a World War II movie where the british were trying to blow up a Nazi dam, Space Physics is not going to apply. Those Resistance ships that got shot up? Those were just B-17 bombers. What happens when you drop something in space in Star Wars? It falls down - because that's how things work in a multi billion dollar Buck Rogers movie.

8 hours ago, Khazadune said:

But as fans we should ask for more, really.

Or, oh - I don't know, pay attention to the damned movie and apply some critical thinking skills?