10 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Oh hey, the alt-right is here. Great. Prepare for long, hateful rants about how women and people of color are destroying society.
Hey! You knock off with all that talk about women-folk. My pen is is feeling very threatened right now!
Edited by Desslok9 minutes ago, TheJrade said:as any student of sci-fi writing will tell you is necessary, ruins any other sort of narrative construct.
But we are not even discussion sci-fi.
We are talking about space fantasy with correlation to our own time. Sci-fi is about exploring possibilities for the future, while star wars is fantasy with a dash of commenting on politics of the day.
Besides, as mentioned, there are canon examples of hyperspace taking out unshielded planets indeed, the biggest problem is the massive spread of hypermatter, poisoning the whole planet, it's orbit and parts of the whole freaking solar system. This sounds unfit as a tool for conquest, it does sound unfit as a tool for rebellion and it would not have been useful for the empire either, because those guys were already in control AND they had the resources and technology to build a dozen death stars anyway … which could solve the biggest problem: Planetary shields.
Speaking of Hyperspace projectiles and other hyperspace weapons:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_Gun
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace_pulsemass_generator
And as mentioned before, massive deployment of hyperspace weapons just encourages everyone to bring interdictor fields or even just mines to counter this tactic. So you are investing a lot of resources into something which can be countered with relative ease. Which was one of the reasons most cloaking systems in star wars never took off … there long-term usefulness was basically zero.
19 minutes ago, TheJrade said:To explain further: Any yahoo with a freighter has access to hyperspace, and an impact at lightspeed with an object of almost any mass is enough to destroy a planet.
This is established where?
Just now, SEApocalypse said:But we are not even discussion sci-fi.
We are talking about space fantasy with correlation to our own time. Sci-fi is about exploring possibilities for the future, while star wars is fantasy with a dash of commenting on politics of the day.
Besides, as mentioned, there are canon examples of hyperspace taking out unshielded planets indeed, the biggest problem is the massive spread of hypermatter, poisoning the whole planet, it's orbit and parts of the whole freaking solar system. This sounds unfit as a tool for conquest, it does sound unfit as a tool for rebellion and it would not have been useful for the empire either, because those guys were already in control AND they had the resources and technology to build a dozen death stars anyway … which could solve the biggest problem: Planetary shields.
That is actually one of the best excuses I have heard so far, even if it does have to dip into Legends to justify it. It actually DOES explain the Death Star as being an anti-planetary shield weapon. As Stan Lee would say, your No-Prize is in the mail.
Still, a billion hyperspace missiles would probably still cost less, not require any maintenance, and not be in danger of getting sabotaged by a bad design and blown up by a lucky shot. Nor does it explain why said hyperspace missiles aren't used in space combat.
3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:This is established where?
Certainly not in that one recent movie, I don't remember it's title. The one where an impact from a cruiser doesn't even obliterate another starship.
15 minutes ago, TheJrade said:Not at all what I am saying. I absolutely know that a lightspeed impact is a Very Bad Thing. But not having narrative prevention for VBTs like this from happening, as any student of sci-fi writing will tell you is necessary, ruins any other sort of narrative construct. Most notably Death Stars.
If a writer wants to make up a flavor of magic and tell me it can do wacky things that is fine. I don't know how magic works so as long as they are consistent there is no issue. On the other hand, I DO know how warfare works and if they write bad Deus Ex Machina nonsense I feel quite justified in calling them on it. Particularly if the change negates 40 years of cinematic history.
Still waiting on the examples of what has been “negated” by this scene.
As Malcolm Reynolds might say, give it to me in Captain Dummy Talk. Tell me specifically what has been negated. Give me the specific scenes that are now invalid.
Just now, Nytwyng said:Still waiting on the examples of what has been “negated” by this scene.
As Malcolm Reynolds might say, give it to me in Captain Dummy Talk. Tell me specifically what has been negated. Give me the specific scenes that are now invalid.
I'll start at the beginning: Ep4 when a Star Destroyer is chasing a corvette. Rather than chase it just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than chase the Millenium Falcon just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than attack the Death Star with snubfighters just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile (or maybe two).
5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Certainly not in that one recent movie, I don't remember it's title. The one where an impact from a cruiser doesn't even obliterate another starship.
I think you are thinking of the one where one cruiser destroys half a dozen Star Destroyers and nearly destroys a 20-mile-long supercapital ship with a glancing impact. I can't remember the name of it either.
13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:This is established where?
Basic physics.
You kids still haven't explained why everyone doesn't use hyperspace as a weapon all the time.
20 minutes ago, TheJrade said:That is actually one of the best excuses I have heard so far, even if it does have to dip into Legends to justify it.
Nope.
Interdictor are canon.
LARGE
Ships destroying planets with hypermatter spread is canon as well. No need for legends for this. Planetary shields are canon as well. Alderaan having a shield is on screen in the original trilogy on top. So the death star killing planets with planetary shields is canon as well. Still no legends needed.
Lastly, your billion of cheap hyperspace missiles still needs a weapon platform to launch, is rather close range AND has less fire power than an equivalent proton torpedo. And gets countered by an uncommon, but long-time established technology. I am not sold on your idea to mass produce those things when proton torpedoes and bombs do show usually a much better performance while using a lot less expensive raw materials. Hyperdrives ain't exactly cheap.
A few torpedos are enough to rip apart 300m light cruisers without trouble. The size difference in this case is much bigger than it was when you compare the supremacy with the raddus, a over 3 km long ship vs a 60 km
long
wide ship. And the proton torpedos destroyed those light cruisers without trouble, same as the B-Wing squadron in RotJ killing imperial class star destroyers left and right with their heavy guns and proton torpedoes.
Now you can argue that fighters and bombers in star wars are to strong over capital ships. ;-)
9 minutes ago, TheJrade said:You kids
Is that how you think adults talk?
15 minutes ago, TheJrade said:Ep4 when a Star Destroyer is chasing a corvette. Rather than chase it just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than chase the Millenium Falcon just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than attack the Death Star with snubfighters just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile (or maybe two).
Your logical is downright insane. Step back dude, you stopped being rational over your urge to win a pointless discussion … and you look downright crazy.
16 minutes ago, TheJrade said:I'll start at the beginning: Ep4 when a Star Destroyer is chasing a corvette. Rather than chase it just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than chase the Millenium Falcon just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile. Later, rather than attack the Death Star with snubfighters just vaporize it with a hyperspace missile (or maybe two).
I see. So, we’ve established these “hyperspace missiles”...where, exactly? Why would you expect them to use weapons that haven’t been established to exist in this universe?
So...still waiting to see what scenes have been “negated.”
18 minutes ago, TheJrade said:Basic physics.
Please elaborate. Hyperspace is fictional (so far as we currently know, anyway). Its properties are exactly what those in charge of the stories tell us they are. So, by all means, explain to us how the movie got the physics of hyperspace wrong, and where this planet-destroying nature is established in the movies , since your complaint is that the scene negates the other movies.
22 minutes ago, TheJrade said:You kids still haven't explained why everyone doesn't use hyperspace as a weapon all the time.
In point of fact, we have provided a variety of responses, some rooted purely in the fiction, some purely in the real world, and some a combination.
But, you’re dead set on hanging all of your dislike on this one scene, so you don’t want to hear any of it.
17 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:Nope.
Interdictor are canon. LARGE Ships destroying planets with hypermatter spread is canon as well. No need for legends for this. Planetary shields are canon as well. Alderaan having a shield is on screen in the original trilogy on top. So the death star killing planets with planetary shields is canon as well. Still no legends needed.Lastly, your billion of cheap hyperspace missiles still needs a weapon platform to launch, is rather close range AND has less fire power than an equivalent proton torpedo. And gets countered by an uncommon, but long-time established technology. I am not sold on your idea to mass produce those things when proton torpedoes and bombs do show usually a much better performance while using a lot less expensive raw materials. Hyperdrives ain't exactly cheap.
A few torpedos are enough to rip apart 300m light cruisers without trouble. The size difference in this case is much bigger than it was when you compare the supremacy with the raddus, a over 3 km long ship vs a 60 kmlongwide ship. And the proton torpedos destroyed those light cruisers without trouble, same as the B-Wing squadron in RotJ killing imperial class star destroyers left and right with their heavy guns and proton torpedoes.
Now you can argue that fighters and bombers in star wars are to strong over capital ships. ;-)
Are Interdictors canon? Are they in the cartoons? It has been years so I will take your word for it. Fortunately I have not mailed your No-Prize yet so there is still time to amend it.
As for hyperspace missiles being less powerful than proton torpedoes, take a moment to multiply just about any mass by the speed of light to find out how much energy is involved in such a collision. From their uses on-screen, torpedoes would seem to be somewhere in the area of a few thousand pounds of TNT, not thousands of pounds of uranium like a hyperspace missile would generate.
Hyperspace missiles would be expensive, but no more expensive than any of the hyperspace-capable fighters we have seen on-screen. How many X-Wings would it take to get to the center of a Star Destroyer? Or you could use one hyperspace missile that you launched from the solar system next door.
16 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:I see. So, we’ve established these “hyperspace missiles”...where, exactly? Why would you expect them to use weapons that haven’t been established to exist in this universe?
So...still waiting to see what scenes have been “negated.”
Please elaborate. Hyperspace is fictional (so far as we currently know, anyway). Its properties are exactly what those in charge of the stories tell us they are. So, by all means, explain to us how the movie got the physics of hyperspace wrong, and where this planet-destroying nature is established in the movies , since your complaint is that the scene negates the other movies.
In point of fact, we have provided a variety of responses, some rooted purely in the fiction, some purely in the real world, and some a combination.
But, you’re dead set on hanging all of your dislike on this one scene, so you don’t want to hear any of it.
A hyperspace missile would be literally anything with a hyperdrive attached to it. Which would be a staple of space combat in any universe why hyperspace combat was possible.
Much like my statement regarding magic earlier, the fictional properties of hyperspace are whatever they say they are. The problem comes when one bad writer currently in charge of (or rather, was recently fired from) says that the physics of hyperspace can be used as a weapon. If that is now suddenly true, then why have any other kind of weapon. Take a minute and multiply anything by the speed of light, nevermind that hyperspace is dramatically faster than the speed of light of course.
And what were some of these reasons everyone doesn't use hyperspace weapons? I missed them, unless you are counting the idea that a rock with a hyperdrive attached would be too expensive or trading one cruiser for an entire massive fleet is not a good trade.
And trust me, there is SO MUCH more dislike for this movie to go around. I am confining my objections to this one thing in this thread.
Edited by TheJrade10 minutes ago, TheJrade said:A hyperspace missile would be literally anything with a hyperdrive attached to it. Which would be a staple of space combat in any universe why hyperspace combat was possible.
Meanwhile, reliable hyperspace combat has not been established.
13 minutes ago, TheJrade said:Much like my statement regarding magic earlier, the fictional properties of hyperspace are whatever they say they are. The problem comes when one bad writer currently in charge of (or rather, was recently fired from) says that the physics of hyperspace can be used as a weapon. If that is now suddenly true, then why have any other kind of weapon.
Think about the logic you’re applying here: because an improvised attack worked, all other weapons would be eliminated in favor of adopting that improvised attack. By this logic, after the first time someone was struck and killed by a car, the world’s militaries should have dismantled all of their weapon systems and started chucking Chevys at one another.
19 minutes ago, TheJrade said:Take a minute and multiply anything by the speed of light, nevermind that hyperspace is dramatically faster than the speed of light of course.
In which case, Han shouldn’t have been concerned about surviving the Falcon’s dangerous approach to Stakiller Base. Coming out of hyperspace in the planet’s vicinity would have answered his own question of how to blow up Starkiller. But, as we saw, while the tactic presented a danger to the ship, there was no concern expressed about destroying the planet.
The scene in TLJ is consistent with everything we know about the subject.
23 minutes ago, TheJrade said:And what were some of these reasons everyone doesn't use hyperspace weapons? I missed them, unless you are counting the idea that a rock with a hyperdrive attached would be too expensive or trading one cruiser for an entire massive fleet is not a good trade.
The timing (and luck) necessary to be successful rather than just jumping to hyperspace or impacting in real space.
That, as shown on screen, one cruiser did not destroy “an entire massive fleet.”
That standard hyperspace weapons have not been established as existing, let alone reliable, by a single scene depicting an extraordinary circumstance.
That, to use terms of the game that this forum is dedicated to, Holdo rolled one or more triumphs.
That the First Order’s reactions indicate that, had they tumbled to what she was doing earlier than they did, they could have prevented it. (They thought she was trying to distract them, not attack them...knowing the Raddus was empty, they didn’t see it as a threat.)
Those are for starters.
Again, if you didn’t like the movie, that’s fair enough. If the scene in question is one of the reasons why, also fair. But digging in your heels like this is just petulant.
For the record....
Still waiting to learn what has been “negated.”
Guys, it don’t matter. For our purposes in the RPG do whatever you as GM (or your GM) thinks is best. You might like or not like the movie and what it does or doesn’t do to canon, but you aren’t convincing one another, so it’s better just to let the past die .
1 hour ago, TheJrade said:Or you could use one hyperspace missile that you launched from the solar system next door.
And hit nothing. Impressive use of technology. Building a missile which basically can hit planet size targets ... but has not enough penetration power to actually damage them, because of shield technology unless maybe when build in death star scale. ;-)
I thought you wanted to emulate the effect from TLJ, which is a weapon which attacks from real space by accelerating to lightspeed and hitting a target before entering lightspeed. This is an extreme low range missile when using in proton torpedo size and an extreme large vessel when used to hit something a few dozen kilometer away.
On screen results of the 3500m long "hyperspace missile" seen on screen indicates less explosive power per mass unit than proton torpedos. Do it. Make the calcs based on lightspeed for an absolute maximum and scale torpedos accordingly. Make the calcs and your journey to the darkside will be complete, take your rightful place on the side of Curtis Saxton. Give the galaxy again it's gigaton weapons! ;-)
edit: And don't make the mistake to use non-newton base for this, hyperspace engines negate all relativistic effects and thus massively reducing the effect.
17 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:For the record....
Still waiting to learn what has been “negated.”
You'll be waiting 'til your last day.
That reminds me - Splad (I think that's their name?) still owes me an answer, too.
It's almost like these types have that in common.
Hyperspace missiles only work if you have a crazy brilliant person at the helm, taking a few moments to program up a hyperspace route to hit a larger target that is small enough to not have its own strong gravitational field and thus make the astrogation impossible, but large enough to actually hit, and is relatively still (because its crew is distracted). Then it maybe works, one time in how many? Where is a protocol droid to tell us the odds when we actually want one!
Anyways, assuming you have all of those conditions in effect, you can have a hyperspace missile - one per crazy brilliant person you care to kill to make it work.
And oh, it might not destroy the ship entirely - after all, the Raddus merely split the Supremacy in half; the ship may have been a combat casualty, but plenty of folks on board seem to have survived the shot. No idea what the effects were on the other star destroyers; they seem to have been hit, too, but I couldn't really tell. Have to wait a few months until we can take screenshots and zoom in, and maybe check some commentary tracks. Or read the novelization.
So, yeah; based on the available evidence, it seems to be a desperation move that does not, in fact, impart the sort of damage you'd think would follow if you just figure out the kinetic energy of a vessel of that mass moving at light speed (or whatever speed you want to count it as being, seeing as it's not obvious that jumping to hyperspace actually imparts any kinetic energy to the vessel making the transition).
Big Car hits other big car at top speed: both cars are destroyed.
Same big car hits medium tree: tree is fine.
You people want to adhere real world physics to the Star Wars universe while not understanding real world physics.
Edited by DanteRotterdam4 hours ago, TheJrade said:the Alt-Left
Oh my...
1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:Oh my...
We've hit the apex of stupid.
Or is that the nadir?
3 hours ago, coyote6 said:Hyperspace missiles only work if you have a crazy brilliant person at the helm, taking a few moments to program up a hyperspace route to hit a larger target that is small enough to not have its own strong gravitational field and thus make the astrogation impossible, but large enough to actually hit, and is relatively still (because its crew is distracted). Then it maybe works, one time in how many? Where is a protocol droid to tell us the odds when we actually want one!
Anyways, assuming you have all of those conditions in effect, you can have a hyperspace missile - one per crazy brilliant person you care to kill to make it work.
And oh, it might not destroy the ship entirely - after all, the Raddus merely split the Supremacy in half; the ship may have been a combat casualty, but plenty of folks on board seem to have survived the shot. No idea what the effects were on the other star destroyers; they seem to have been hit, too, but I couldn't really tell. Have to wait a few months until we can take screenshots and zoom in, and maybe check some commentary tracks. Or read the novelization.
So, yeah; based on the available evidence, it seems to be a desperation move that does not, in fact, impart the sort of damage you'd think would follow if you just figure out the kinetic energy of a vessel of that mass moving at light speed (or whatever speed you want to count it as being, seeing as it's not obvious that jumping to hyperspace actually imparts any kinetic energy to the vessel making the transition).
I don't usually pitch in. But I recall Finn and Rose being pretty close to the point of impact and they survived; it just largely threw Phasma and co completely off guard/dramatic halving of numbers. So the energy expelled by the impact was delivered in a very particular region which probably left the Garrison of Snoke's ship largely intact. The only other view we have of Kylo was evidently made primarily by a lightsaber exploding; which was forceful enough to knock both back and at least Kylo clean out. As such; while it disabled Snoke's Vessel, it probably left most of the ship intact and the crew unharmed as they were able to deploy from it afterwards. I don't think repairing it would be impossible given enough time and manpower (though the next movie will probably have a new super weapon, so I would be surprised if they reused it.)
The rest of the damage was likely shrapnel produced from the initial impact, I donno how much damage that dealt; but I suspect it was a direct result of how closely the New Order was flying in formation.
It indicates to me that while it makes a mighty fine last ditch attempt, one has to be really accurate or using it against a large target. One might use it on a deathstar, but I get the feeling it's not accurate enough to use on ships of similar scale with much accuracy. That indication I took away by Holdo's last attempt hitting the wing, rather then a more centralised compoment of snoke's vessel.
When do you know that you found some fascist? When the guy starts rambling about the alt-left.
And btw, having problems with the antifa is not the issue here, but using explicit alt-right jargon ... why not just add an 88 to that user name. Would be less obvious to some. ;-)
2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:Big Car hits other big car at top speed: both cars are destroyed.
Same big car hits medium tree: tree is fine.
You people want to adhere real world physics to the Star Wars universe while not understanding real world physics.
The problem starts with the actual forces involved here. We're not talking about a car hitting a tree - we're talking about a car hitting a tree while at relativistic speeds, which would going by real life physics obliterate the car, the tree and anything around them in a large radius, assuming the car was brought to a full stop. A one-ton car traveling at half of lightspeed has roughly the same energy as the bombs that ended World War 2.
While TheJrade has done what he could to disqualify himself from a meaningful discussion (oh my! A vice-admiral with purple hair is totally less believable than a space monk entering combat while wearing a robe!), his original point does have some merit. Once drive systems have been established as weaponizable, it is somewhat hard to discount them as the sheer energy required for accelerating stuff to light speed
is
devastating when set free. So we need reasons why it can't be set free - reasons like FTL travel working in another dimension rather than by actual speed in our dimension and planets screwing up hyperspace travel. But Holdo has shown that this angle of attack is possible. And the way she calmly did it and Poe grasped what she did, it didn't seem like a fluke, a one-in-a-million chance of doing anything else than jumping her to some nearby random empty place, but like something that could be reproduced.
One problem might be precision - we don't know how precise hyperdrives are. Apparently, they're precise enough to land a ship within a planetary shield (if you're Han Solo) or within a dozens-of-kilometres-long ship (if you're Vice-Admiral Holdo). That would still make Super Star Destroyers and the Deathstars fair game for ramming attacks. And despite the lessons of the movie's first attack (a victory is meaningless if you can afford your losses far less than the enemy can afford his), the logistics involved heavily prefer the ramming faction. An old freighter could take out a target many times its tonnage.