I was wondering what the arguments are that Luke was out of character/in character for the Last Jedi? I want to be more educated on the topic (I have a certain view already, but want to hear others). Also, please keep it civil

I think Mark Hamill has said it best himself...

'Honestly, one of the parts of The Last Jedi I enjoyed the most was Mark Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker. Like Mark, I "fundamentally disagreed" with a lot of the choices for his character, particularly the notion that Luke would even consider for the briefest of moments killing a child while he slept in cold blood. I mean, come on. It's been said by so many people so many times over the last few weeks, but this is the guy who believed that Darth Vader could be redeemed. And he contemplates killing his nephew - the son of his sister and best friend - in cold blood?

I could maybe have bought this idea. Maybe . With a crap ton more exposition over the course of three films, with all of them leading up to that being the final twist in the tale. But it came pretty much out of nowhere. We simply aren't told enough about Luke's time as a teacher, Ben Solo as a student and Snoke's influence over him for this "twist" to many any kind of sense.

"Oh, Snoke had already got to Ben." When? Where? How? "Luke saw he would be the next Darth Vader, that he was too far gone" What? How? Why?

The same goes for Luke's death; it was inevitable, sure, but it was also unnecessary at this point in time. We'd had a number of "fake-out" deaths and "noble sacrifice" sequences in the film; Leia, Finn, Holdo, Paige Tico... when Luke's appearance on Crait was revealed as an illusion, a projection to buy the Resistance time, I thought "great - a Jedi mind trick to distract the First Order, and Luke can become a more active participant in the final film".

Eh... no. He dies anyway. The twin suns setting was great, sure, and a fitting way for him to bow out, but it came way, way too soon. If Mark Hamill's performance in the Last Jedi showed us anything, it's that he still has so much to offer the franchise moving forward. He loves the character and the films just as much as any fan, he loves being involved and that passion shines through in his work.

I can understand Han being written out of the series (in fact, Harrison Ford probably made it a condition of his involvement), but you can't tell me there's no room for Luke as an experienced veteran and wise mentor for the new, young cast in future films. Luke as a reluctant father figure and guide could have been a great foil for Rey for a long time; he could have had some incredible interactions with Poe as the former hot shot pilot meets the new kid on the block. You could have had him alongside Laura Dern in future films as leaders of the Resistance (and even a possible romance). But no, they pointlessly killed Holdo - who looked like she was being set up as a replacement for Leia - off as well. Gah, what a waste of potential. For such a cheap payoff.

At the end of the day, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher and Mark Hamill all brought heart and soul to the Star Wars franchise. To lose one is understandable, to lose two is sad and regrettable, but to lose all three - this soon, and in this manner - is pretty much unforgivable.

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but this is the guy who believed that Darth Vader could be redeemed.

He concluded that Vader could be redeemed after finding out Vader was his father and it wasn't immediate.

Bear in mind that at this point Luke is paranoid enough about Ben Solo to sneak into his room and read his mind while he sleeps. He's already scared. When he does so he sees a Force vision of what Ben Solo as Kylo Ren will do to the galaxy.

His response is emotional, heat-of-the-moment and momentary. It's a believeable human reaction and it's not out of character for Luke either considering what he did to Vader when the latter threatened Leia.

...and while I'm at it, I'm going to post this clip again. It might not be accurate, it might be heavily edited, it might be taken out of context but it gets it's point across and I'll be damned if it doesn't accurately reflect how I felt after watching the film:

18 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

He concluded that Vader could be redeemed after finding out Vader was his father and it wasn't immediate.

Bear in mind that at this point Luke is paranoid enough about Ben Solo to sneak into his room and read his mind while he sleeps. He's already scared. When he does so he sees a Force vision of what Ben Solo as Kylo Ren will do to the galaxy.

His response is emotional, heat-of-the-moment and momentary. It's a believeable human reaction and it's not out of character for Luke either considering what he did to Vader when the latter threatened Leia.

How would someone argue against this. I have heard it brought up before. Or would the argument be that he did nothing to fix it?

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...and while I'm at it, I'm going to post this clip again. It might not be accurate, it might be heavily edited, it might be taken out of context but it gets it's point across and I'll be damned if it doesn't accurately reflect how I felt after watching the film:

If you believe all that to be true about a video then you shouldn't repost it. Editing someone's comments in order to deliberately misrepresent their views is despicable and circulating such works is socially irresponsible.

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How would someone argue against this. I have heard it brought up before. Or would the argument be that he did nothing to fix it?

That's the main argument: that he wouldn't have given up entirely and gone into exile to die. I'm personally unconvinced by that argument.

Luke had come to believe in his own legend and when that legend was shattered it broke him. He believed that everything that had gone wrong was the result of his hubris, a hubris he came to associate with the Jedi themselves. What reason did he have to stick around after that?

I feel like there's a few explainations for Luke's character. For the trying to kill Kylo thing, I think it's important to ask the question that if you could see the future, and knew how many people someone would kill, would you finish that person off? If you were alive in the 1910s, and you could see the future, wouldn't you do everything possible to kill Stalin and Hitler? It's not a normal question, because normal people can't see the future like that. But Luke is such a powerful Jedi that he can. I'm not saying it completely justifies his actions, but it does explain them a bit. And keep in mind that despite knowing how many people Kylo would kill, Luke can't bring himself to do it anyway.

I don't really mind the fact that he went into hiding either. Trying to root for the Jedi is always heartbreaking in Star Wars - pretty much any time they show up, they get killed. It was kind of fitting that the Jedi guy in Star Wars Legacy was a Bothan. I don't think Luke could handle the pain of trying to train another generation of Jedi only to see them butchered. Much the same as why Han left Leia - he couldn't handle the pain of trying to have a family after Ben became Kylo. And his point of the Jedi being arrogant failures is an interesting one - this kind of thought is accentuated in the new canon, by series such as the recently concluded Mace Windu comics.

It does bother me just a little that he refuses to train Rey, because she's so patient and optimistic about the whole thing (and Luke himself was in the same position once, begging Yoda to train him). But he actually comes around on that a little more quickly. And he does end up training her. I wouldn't be surprised if his ghost shows up a lot in Episode IX. I think he decided that he couldn't train a whole generation of Jedi, but he could train a single apprentice.

Luke's death bothers me, not gonna lie. After all I just said, he needs to be around to teach Rey a bit more. Then again, he is kind of the Obi Wan of this series, and Luke actually only got to spend a day or two with Obi Wan, and it changed his life. So what I'm really thinking is that we probably need a new trilogy Yoda to complete Rey's training. I was hoping it would be Luke - i.e. that he'd still be alive at least at the start of Episode IX - but I'll be interested to see who they pick. I think right now they're polling the audience on whether Kylo should be redeemed. I would also like to see Ahsoka brought back (her species, like Wookiees, lives long enough that she wouldn't even be noticably older). And I suppose Luke's ghost could finish Rey's training. But as it is, I feel like Rey is a little bit inexperienced to be considered a true Jedi, so it would be nice to have Luke around if for no other reason than to say that he was training her between episodes VIII and IX. They should've probably saved his death until at least the start of Episode IX (like Yoda with Episode VI). Then again, Force Ghosts can do anything these days. And if Darth Maul can get brought back from the dead when fans demand it, so can Luke.

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If you were alive in the 1910s, and you could see the future, wouldn't you do everything possible to kill Stalin and Hitler?

The comparison I'd go with is if you were in the 1910s, you had a weapon on you, Hitler was asleep in front of you and you saw the entirely of the Second World War in moments would the thought cross your mind?

3 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

The comparison I'd go with is if you were in the 1910s, you had a weapon on you, Hitler was asleep in front of you and you saw the entirely of the Second World War in moments would the thought cross your mind?

I would say it definitely would. However, I would also add "Then he sees you about to kill him, which leads to everything you were trying to prevent in the first place. Then you do nothing to stop the result of your actions."

5 minutes ago, LifeGain said:

I would say it definitely would. However, I would also add "Then he sees you about to kill him, which leads to everything you were trying to prevent in the first place. Then you do nothing to stop the result of your actions."

I'm not sure what he was really supposed to do. The events he saw were already put into motion, and without Kylo, Snoke would just find another puppet (presumably one of the other Knights of Ren). He really just didn't want anything to do with the whole thing. It was kind of like Obi Wan - what was he supposed to do? Darth Vader just killed any Jedi who tried to take him out. Obi Wan would've just sacrificed his life for nothing. Not arguing Luke shouldn't have done something, just saying why he might not have.

Another important thing to put in here is that depression denies human reason. I've known a number of people who suffer from depression, and they tend to behave in an irrational manner that only exacerbates their depression. I think Luke was in a deep depression, which means we can't really fully blame him for his mistakes. I think we can blame the writer for putting him there - I'd rather not have my favorite character suffering from crippling depression - but as far as Luke's character goes, I think he's consistent.

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Then you do nothing to stop the result of your actions.

What could he do?

11 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

What could he do?

Well, not going into hiding and abandoning all his friends and allies to the result of his actions would be a very good start. As Mark Hamill himself said, he wouldn't just vanish and leave the galaxy hanging. If he made a mistake, he would try and right the wrong.

...let's face it, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

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Well, not going into hiding and abandoning all his friends and allies to the result of his actions would be a very good start.

That doesn't answer the question. If he stuck around what could he do? Train more Jedi after how the last attempt went? Hunt down and murder his nephew for real? Be a symbol for a legend he no longer believes in?

If he stuck around, he could try to save Kylo, much like he did with Darth Vader (who was arguably far worse). If that did not work, then the next likely thing that he would have to do to stop all that from happening would be to kill Kylo (a result of his actions) or to capture him. It may not be the option he wanted, but it would be the option that would be the best considering the other alternatives failed and what Kylo had done/ will do. We all have to make choices that we do not necessarily want to do, but that we have to do.

13 minutes ago, LifeGain said:

If he stuck around, he could try to save Kylo, much like he did with Darth Vader (who was arguably far worse). If that did not work, then the next likely thing that he would have to do to stop all that from happening would be to kill Kylo (a result of his actions) or to capture him. It may not be the option he wanted, but it would be the option that would be the best considering the other alternatives failed and what Kylo had done/ will do. We all have to make choices that we do not necessarily want to do, but that we have to do.

That requires him to believe he'd succeed. His temple is destroyed, his students are dead and his force prodigy of a nephew has gone over to the dark side thinking his uncle tried to murder him in his sleep. In Luke's view this is all his fault, because of his arrogance, his hubris, his believing in his own legend. Furthermore, it's the teachings of the Jedi that led him to his arrogance. His faith in both the Jedi and himself is broken and to him thinking he can fix this is playing into the same Jedi arrogance that caused this. He and the Jedi are part of the problem and he decides it's time for him to disappear and to let the Jedi die with him.

That I think is the key point of subjectivity here: can you break Luke Skywalker's spirit? Is his optimism indomitable or can it be shattered?

If Luke Skywalker is human then yes, if Luke Skywalker is a larger than life mythological hero not subject to the psychological stresses of ordinary people then no.

43 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

That requires him to believe he'd succeed. His temple is destroyed, his students are dead and his force prodigy of a nephew has gone over to the dark side thinking his uncle tried to murder him in his sleep. In Luke's view this is all his fault, because of his arrogance, his hubris, his believing in his own legend. Furthermore, it's the teachings of the Jedi that led him to his arrogance. His faith in both the Jedi and himself is broken and to him thinking he can fix this is playing into the same Jedi arrogance that caused this. He and the Jedi are part of the problem and he decides it's time for him to disappear and to let the Jedi die with him.

That I think is the key point of subjectivity here: can you break Luke Skywalker's spirit? Is his optimism indomitable or can it be shattered?

If Luke Skywalker is human then yes, if Luke Skywalker is a larger than life mythological hero not subject to the psychological stresses of ordinary people then no.

He can let the Jedi die. He can have his spirit broken. But to let a problem you created destroy millions of lives, at least in part, goes against who Luke had become in the original trilogy imo.

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He can let the Jedi die. He can have his spirit broken.

That's the thing about having his spirit broken. He doesn't believe he can fix it.

If he did then I'd agree that he probably would try.

6 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

That's the thing about having his spirit broken. He doesn't believe he can fix it.

If he did then I'd agree that he probably would try.

Do they say that in the movie? That Luke believes he can't undo what was done? I honestly can't remember.

He says he can't stroll out with a laser sword and take down the whole First Order.

Leia said Snoke caused it all. I buy it.

He did not have to stop the whole First Order though. He just had to stop the monster he had created. If Luke were able to stop Kylo, the First Order would not have gone away (just like the Empire did not go away when Darth Vader died), but it would have lost an extremely valuable asset and it would have been easier for the Republic and the Resistance to defeat the First Order. Just think how crucial Kylo is to the First Order and how he is now in control of it. Kylo is conflicted throughout most of the movies and it was possible that Luke would have turned him. If Luke had been able to stop that....well then we would not have the Episode 8 that we do now lol.

I think the movie had good intentions, but it was just communicated poorly and was full of discrepancies (having 2 different directors with different visions did not help that one bit).

20 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...and while I'm at it, I'm going to post this clip again. It might not be accurate, it might be heavily edited, it might be taken out of context but it gets it's point across and I'll be damned if it doesn't accurately reflect how I felt after watching the film:

“It might be fake news but I chose to believe it because it fits my world view”