I've been thinking about ways I want to use magic skills in a setting I am working on. But I wanted to run this idea by the community noodlers.

Summary: different characteristics for different spells.

One of the biggest complaint about magic that I've seen about magic is that it's too broad. You can do nearly anything with a simple magic skill check. The CRB considers this, and offers suggestions to make higher difficulties for magic skill checks.

Working this problem through my brain I realized I don't like the idea of an Arcana skill user dumping everything into Intellect and then being a superhero capable of doing everything under the sun with an Arcana (Intellect) skill check.

My theoretical solution: different spells use different characteristics! Boom, nailed it. This will not only resolve my issue with casters being a one characteristic pony, but also force some interesting roleplaying narrative because the caster uses different characteristics for different ways of casting magic spells.

I can even use different characteristics for different spells for different skills.

I posted this idea to a comment on reddit, but it's a good example.

Say you're making an Avatar the Last Airbender/Legend of Korra type game. Bending is manipulation of elements through magic. For this game you might create the four elements (or more) as skills. Now, using the idea to change characteristics based on what spells you are using with those skills can definitely change the flavor of the casters and the skills as a whole. Earth bending skill that uses Brawn to cast the attack spell, but Willpower to cast the Barrier spell. Or Air bending skill that uses Agility for the Attack spell and Cunning for the Barrier spell. And so on.

Personally, I think I am going to develop this idea a bit further in my setting because I really like the versatility of magic, but I don't like the idea of making magic of a certain type all linked to the same characteristic. This simply reinforces the D&D-like fantasy tropes of the squish caster. I want my casters to be diverse, even the same skill using casters. I don't want all the wizards in my setting to be super smart and then have minor bonuses in another characteristic or two.

My setting is definitely going to use a type of magic called shadow magic. I can envision the Attack spell using Presence; a Shadow mage attacks outward with their inner force of personality, but Barrier might use something like Cunning, Shadow mages use deviousness to create barriers of darkness that obscure or confuse the opponents.

If I add an Elementalist magical tradition skill, the Attack spell characteristic may be cunning for the ability to weave power into a damaging force through creativity, sort of like Green Lantern powers making elemental shaped constructs to lash out at enemies. Then an elementalist may use Agility to cast the Barrier spell, I can imagine the elementalist is waving their arms around producing a fire shield or a wall of air, and they need to move their arms quickly for the construct to keep the shape.

Religion is a central theme to my setting that I am creating. Perhaps the Attack spell will use Brawn for the Faith magic skill, the pious mages channel their divine might straight through their physical body, and their body must withstand the divine energy. Barrier might be the religious caster's characteristic that represent ls their faith: willpower, the divine shield is only as strong as the character's faith in their deity.

These are just some quick and dirty examples. Nothing is set in stone even for my campaign, and I definitely will be fiddling with this concept a lot more before the group sits down to play.

I am really happy with this idea though because then even casters of the same type, who use the same skill might focus on completely different characteristics, and thus be vastly different characters, but still are able to use the same kind of magic. A Paladin might focus more on Brawn to use that Faith skill Attack spell, as well as be a big beefy soldier type, than a Priest who spends more on Willpower or whatever I set the characteristic for the Heal spell, but they both still use the same magic skill.

What do ye think? Usable? Flawed? Let me know!

Nice idea, it should work to force diversity in characters but could create single spell characters. For those that do diversify their going to be much less capable of the big end of Spells, magic casting is almost built with the assumption that a magic user will eventually roll 5 Proficiency dice.

im interested to hear your thoughts after testing

My solution to the problem of characters being able to do everything with only one characteristic and one skill was to have learning a spell be a tier 1 ranked talent. When a character first learns their magic skill they get Utility for free, but they then have to purchase every other spell they want to know. This does not get rid of late game abuses of magic, but rather postpones it. If someone has spent 325xp (125xp on spells alone) to be able to do basically anything with one skill before they have even improved that skill then more power to them.

I was also playing around with the idea of individual spells being tier 1 ranked talents and each purchase past the first gets you one more upgrade that your character has learned to utilize. This would quickly turn magic into an xp blackhole though, and that's no fun.

On 12/30/2017 at 9:03 AM, Horiuchi Nobata said:

My solution to the problem of characters being able to do everything with only one characteristic and one skill was to have learning a spell be a tier 1 ranked talent. When a character first learns their magic skill they get Utility for free, but they then have to purchase every other spell they want to know. This does not get rid of late game abuses of magic, but rather postpones it. If someone has spent 325xp (125xp on spells alone) to be able to do basically anything with one skill before they have even improved that skill then more power to them.

I was also playing around with the idea of individual spells being tier 1 ranked talents and each purchase past the first gets you one more upgrade that your character has learned to utilize. This would quickly turn magic into an xp blackhole though, and that's no fun.

This sounds more like the Force rules from Star Wars. My group has done something similar and it seems to work well so far.

On 12/30/2017 at 10:03 AM, Horiuchi Nobata said:

My solution to the problem of characters being able to do everything with only one characteristic and one skill was to have learning a spell be a tier 1 ranked talent. When a character first learns their magic skill they get Utility for free, but they then have to purchase every other spell they want to know. This does not get rid of late game abuses of magic, but rather postpones it. If someone has spent 325xp (125xp on spells alone) to be able to do basically anything with one skill before they have even improved that skill then more power to them.

So how does spell's Rank function? What does each rank give you?

Spells do not have a rank. The Talent, let's call it Spell Knowledge, has ranks. Each rank lets you learn one spell beyond just knowing Utility.

On 1/1/2018 at 8:46 AM, Khaalis said:

So how does spell's Rank function? What does each rank give you?

So I am considering something very similar to how Horiuchi, which works like the following (copy paste from my notes):

Quote

In order to be able to access any of the three pools of magic a character needs to have at least one skill rank in the corresponding magic (Arcana, Divine or Primal) skill. Further ranks in these skills increase the effectiveness of using that pool of magic. We introduce three new Knowledge skills, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Divine) and Knowledge (Primal), as a way to decide which spell types are available and to adjust the results from magic skill check that refer to a Knowledge skill.

When a player gets access to one of the three pools he or she automatically unlocks access to the Utility spell type and one spell type of the players choice. Then each additional rank in the corresponding Knowledge skill will unlock another spell type of the players choice.

For each and every spell type unlocked you gain access to all additional effects with no restrictions unless the GM/setting objects.

This is ofc subject to change, but is what I am thinking of going with now. So magic skill = how good you are at doing spells, Knowledge magic skill = how much you know about said magic.

4 hours ago, Morridini said:

So I am considering something very similar to how Horiuchi, which works like the following (copy paste from my notes):

This is ofc subject to change, but is what I am thinking of going with now. So magic skill = how good you are at doing spells, Knowledge magic skill = how much you know about said magic.

This is exactly how I see it. Casting skill vs. Knowledge of the Magic discipline. You might be a madman with the ability to sling spells you know but you don't have a good grasp on wider knowledge of magic. I also think each magic skill needs its own Knowledge skill.

Just as a brief example, think of say the Potterverse. Harry has a high casting skill but low knowledge skill, but Hermione is the one with all the ranks in Knowledge but not as much sheer capability with hurling spells.

8 hours ago, Khaalis said:

This is exactly how I see it. Casting skill vs. Knowledge of the Magic discipline. You might be a madman with the ability to sling spells you know but you don't have a good grasp on wider knowledge of magic. I also think each magic skill needs its own Knowledge skill.

Just as a brief example, think of say the Potterverse. Harry has a high casting skill but low knowledge skill, but Hermione is the one with all the ranks in Knowledge but not as much sheer capability with hurling spells.

That's a good explanation. I've come around to this thinking. Originally for me the difference between green and yellow was natural vs acquired skill, and a separate Knowledge skill seemed redundant. But it's really more about applied vs theoretical training. The theory allows you to understand what the limits are to what the magic itself can do, its traditions, its "how to", etc. The practical is your own personal ability seasoned with practice.

I guess it comes down to this: if it's important enough to your setting to differentiate two different skills of magic, there's enough wealth of knowledge contained in each of those to justify a separate Knowledge skill.

I had this thought last night. What if taking the relevant magic skill allows you to cast difficulty 1 spells. Then you have magic talents; Tier 1 allows you to cast difficulty 2, tier 2 to cast difficulty 3 etc. Gives some magic progression, tied to a some XP usage, but not a lot.

EDIT: Or, maybe scrap that. You can only cast spells equal to your rank in the relevant magic skill +1.

I'm just looking for a way to have some magic progression. That could just be because it's something that I'm so used to from D&D. Hmmm...

2 hours ago, RagingJim said:

I had this thought last night. What if taking the relevant magic skill allows you to cast difficulty 1 spells. Then you have magic talents; Tier 1 allows you to cast difficulty 2, tier 2 to cast difficulty 3 etc. Gives some magic progression, tied to a some XP usage, but not a lot.

EDIT: Or, maybe scrap that. You can only cast spells equal to your rank in the relevant magic skill +1.

I'm just looking for a way to have some magic progression. That could just be because it's something that I'm so used to from D&D. Hmmm...

Remember too that there is a hard limit to magic of 5 Difficulty, you cannot add more effects beyond that. Obviously there’s ways to reduce difficulties, which allows more effects.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Remember too that there is a hard limit to magic of 5 Difficulty, you cannot add more effects beyond that. Obviously there’s ways to reduce difficulties, which allows more effects.

So technically you could say that you can only cast a spell of Difficulty equal to skill rating. It would give the progression feel the OP is looking for. However, I feel it would be gimping the player IMHO. I feel the progression concept is better covered by skill ranks simply reflecting your improvement in casting the spells and taking talents to further improve how well (or easily) cast spells.

As for learning spells, I think itbdepends on the setting and type of magic.

On 12/30/2017 at 2:13 AM, Doughnut said:

Say you're making an Avatar the Last Airbender/Legend of Korra type game. Bending is manipulation of elements through magic. For this game you might create the four elements (or more) as skills. Now, using the idea to change characteristics based on what spells you are using with those skills can definitely change the flavor of the casters and the skills as a whole. Earth bending skill that uses Brawn to cast the attack spell, but Willpower to cast the Barrier spell. Or Air bending skill that uses Agility for the Attack spell and Cunning for the Barrier spell. And so on.

That's actually very close to how I handled it in my Avatar: The Second Age conversion. At first I went with four separate Bending skills, but that was too bloated, so I narrowed it down to just Bending (its up to the players to specify which element is their affinity during character creation).

When it comes to actually using bending abilities, the characteristic changes depending on what the technique actually does, but the skill check is always a Bending skill check. For example, a Water Whip is agility based, but Fire Kick is (obviously) brawn based.

My current spreadsheet indicates that the following [active] forms are associated with which characteristics (Brawn was renamed to Body for flavor-purposes only):

I know a lot of people are going to contend what attribute fits which element best, but in my year+ of working on this, I realized that it made much more sense to have each specific ability tied to its own attribute, rather than all earthbending techniques requiring a high body.

Part of the reason for this was to allow PCs to play different kinds of benders. You don't want an entire team of earthbender PCs to all be statted with high Body and nothing else - that would be super boring. And canon supports that this is not the case; plenty of techniques deviate from what is shown to be "standard" bending styles and forms in the show.