2 hours ago, Urvogel said:

You're totally getting your wires crossed there. It didn't sell well BECAUSE Wizkids mishandled it. And it's not just my 'perception' as you call it, but the consensus of the community. No advertising or promotion, overpriced expansions, zero communication with players, lack of support for stores, and non-US markets being an afterthought. If people were aware the game existed, they then had to contend with high entry prices and the random lottery to see if your store would ever get the monthly kit. Plus I'm not saying that X-Wing is a bad game, I'm saying it's only a best seller because it has a Star Wars name slapped on it. Would it be as big as it is if it was an original property? Take a look at other sci-fi spaceship games and get back to me on that.

But to stop arguing about Wizkids not being able to organise a piss-up in a brewery and get back to the original topic of hand: niche games such as RW, which don't have a multi-million franchise to tag themselves onto, need work and investment of the parent company to earn attention and keep attention. Although there's a gap in the market for larger scale wargames, FFG still needs to work on building the fanbase, expanding the franchise and keeping players. Games like this are no overnight successes. Early days will always have rocky starts, but I'll always have the fear of the higher ups going "Well, it's not an instant bestseller, let's stop promoting it. Oh, less people are buying now? Drop it completely."

I've only dabbled in FFG games in the past, I'm sure others will be able to tell if FFG have been like that in the past, or if they handle their properties differently. From what I've seen on here so far, there's still hope, so that's always a good thing. I think this year will probably be make or break for RW though; if FFG handle it well it could explode in popularity. Otherwise, we could be in for difficulties.

I don't think its physically possible for me to disagree more, I'm tempted to let it go, but I just got a new keyboard I'm testing out, I type at the speed of thought and I just cracked a fresh beer, so lets get into it :).

First thing I want to say is that table top games don't need advertisement, marketing or even any sort of effort to become successful ever, period. In fact, more often than not hyping a game up is a sure fire way to get burned. The table top communities are incredibly resourceful, opinionated and willing to try anything and can make a blow out hit out of the most obscure stuff on this planet. D&D is a major franchise, the only advertisement or marketing effort Wizkids needed to make to get the entire planet worth of gamers attention was to post a picture of the box on Facebook. Blaming it on lack of advertising or promotion is just silly.

What the community craves more than anything is original games, DDAW was the third game in the attack wing series, it had already been done and frankly it just came off as a re-skinning of X-Wing and Star Trek. Now I will grant you that I thought it was a fantastic game, in fact, I would definitely agree it was better than Star Trek and at least a match to X-Wing, yet I never bought a single miniature because frankly, I already had a shelf full of X-Wings, I didn't see a point in playing an identical game with slightly altered mechanics in a new skin. It just seemed pointless. I agree however that arguing about it is pointless, DDAW is at this point as they say, history.

As far as FFG goes however, they have a long and very renown history for supporting their franchises. Which is not to say things always go smoothly, games like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay for example most would agree was pre-maturely pulled, but for the most part they will support a games community as long as there is one. Miniature games however have a very high overhead, even for larger producers like FFG, a game like this is probably quite expensive and a big investment. They will continue to support I have no doubt for a few years, at this point they are kind of in the army with the game. The money is spent. I'm certainly rooting for them, I really hope that Runewars winds up being a big success, but unfortunately at the moment its not in a particularly great place. In order for this game to be successful they need to attract miniature game veterans and right now I don't think the game has the chops to do that.

When Latari Elves are released for BattleLore, I'll agree that FFG is good at supporting their game lines.

I really think that part of the problem is FFG puts out a game and doesn't expect it to take off as well as most of third games do. Then after the initial release and maybe first wave of minis/card packs they stumble a little and try to catch up to demand.

This may not be the case for Runewars, but they do have to take care of those other games while the people are eating it up.

Thanks to all the responses. As for pointing out that I wrote about 1,5 year of playing. Yes that was my error, should have edited my post better. Our game group was planning to buy this game since the earliest news about it emerged and we started to play Runewars as soon as it came out. Here you have a photo of my collection (had to do it in order to sell game on auctioning site).
As I said earlier game is pretty good, but not perfect; and sadly those imperfections made this game not quite popular as one would expect in my country, also it is pretty telling that hype for this game between my gaming buddies has died out.

On 1/4/2018 at 5:33 PM, BigKahuna said:

Miniature games however have a very high overhead, even for larger producers like FFG, a game like this is probably quite expensive and a big investment. They will continue to support I have no doubt for a few years, at this point they are kind of in the army with the game. The money is spent. I'm certainly rooting for them, I really hope that Runewars winds up being a big success, but unfortunately at the moment its not in a particularly great place. In order for this game to be successful they need to attract miniature game veterans and right now I don't think the game has the chops to do that.

Star Wars Legion has even a larger overhead in cost with the licensing fees due to Disney. 2017 was Runewars' year of promotion, 2018 is going to be devoted to Legion. Unfortunately, RMG is not going to fair well in the shadow of Legion in 2018 since that will be the new hotness from the same game company with a "brandname" attached to it. My FLGS already has more pre-orders for Legion then it has ever sold of RMG. Not that it is foreseen as a better game than RMG but because its Star Wars and not some generic fantasy world with no real hooks to grab peoples' attention.

I'm personally still hopeful that the work and effort already put into Runewars will pay off in the long run, but I recall when I reviewed the game on my blow I pointed out three things that I think have kind of accurately predicted the predicament Runewars is in today.

One was that the lack of good and expanded lore would be a problem for the game and it is. Its a common complaint that the game world of Terrinoth is very bland and uninspiring. The Miniatures hobby is very heavily linked to the role-playing hobby, gamers in this hobby love their lore, its a critical part of the experience, its absence in Runewars is a big detractor. It's great that they are creating an RPG book for the world, this is exactly the sort of thing this game needs.

The second thing was that it needed to attracted, experienced, veterans of miniature gaming to have a fighting chance and I think this is one of the biggest issues facing Runewars right now. Veteran gamers are a squirrely bunch, they have their sacred cows and they are not to be screwed with, which is exactly what Runewars did. Its basically spit in the eye of tradition in the hobby and while for many (myself included) this is a breath of fresh air, for the old guard the lack of long living traditions like customizability of miniatures, a big *** "core book" with supporting army books as well as general flexibility of army building has clearly put Runewars into a category of its own.

Finally I don't think the game has the visual quality and appeal for the browser and potential gamer, it looks like a generic fantasy miniature game, because it is one. Only the initiated, those who actually take the dive and explore the game will realize its robust diversity and depth of strategy, but that requires the game to have exposure and contrary to what some have said in the above posts, this isn't about marketing and advertisement, its all about the player base. The miniature hobby is a pass the torch hobby, this is the ONLY way these games become successful. You need fans of the game to spread the game and make new fans, no amount of marketing can do that, you need miniature gaming fan establishment to embrace the game for it to become "a thing" in gaming and that really hasn't happened in the last year and I agree with DesignXception here that Legion is going to steal whatever potential thunder is left.

I'm still hoping it recovers and finds a long term audience but at this point I think it's really shaky for this game.

12 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I'm personally still hopeful that the work and effort already put into Runewars will pay off in the long run, but I recall when I reviewed the game on my blow I pointed out three things that I think have kind of accurately predicted the predicament Runewars is in today.

One was that the lack of good and expanded lore would be a problem for the game and it is. Its a common complaint that the game world of Terrinoth is very bland and uninspiring. The Miniatures hobby is very heavily linked to the role-playing hobby, gamers in this hobby love their lore, its a critical part of the experience, its absence in Runewars is a big detractor. It's great that they are creating an RPG book for the world, this is exactly the sort of thing this game needs.

The second thing was that it needed to attracted, experienced, veterans of miniature gaming to have a fighting chance and I think this is one of the biggest issues facing Runewars right now. Veteran gamers are a squirrely bunch, they have their sacred cows and they are not to be screwed with, which is exactly what Runewars did. Its basically spit in the eye of tradition in the hobby and while for many (myself included) this is a breath of fresh air, for the old guard the lack of long living traditions like customizability of miniatures, a big *** "core book" with supporting army books as well as general flexibility of army building has clearly put Runewars into a category of its own.

Finally I don't think the game has the visual quality and appeal for the browser and potential gamer, it looks like a generic fantasy miniature game, because it is one. Only the initiated, those who actually take the dive and explore the game will realize its robust diversity and depth of strategy, but that requires the game to have exposure and contrary to what some have said in the above posts, this isn't about marketing and advertisement, its all about the player base. The miniature hobby is a pass the torch hobby, this is the ONLY way these games become successful. You need fans of the game to spread the game and make new fans, no amount of marketing can do that, you need miniature gaming fan establishment to embrace the game for it to become "a thing" in gaming and that really hasn't happened in the last year and I agree with DesignXception here that Legion is going to steal whatever potential thunder is left.

I'm still hoping it recovers and finds a long term audience but at this point I think it's really shaky for this game.

I don't think you are wrong about the lack of fluff/lore, but that is an aspect of RW that can be remedied easily.

I can see your issue with the visual appeal and lack of model diversity/customization; however, I have seen plenty of head-turning RW armies.

What I believe you are off-base about is the idea that veteran gamers are the individuals that must be courted for a tabletop game to succeed. The problem with that argument is that you ignore the changing realities of board gaming/tabletop gaming, which has altered substantially in the past decade.

For example, I was not too long ago super into the competitive scene of Warhammer 40k. 40k, of course, is a game with a ton of longevity, great models, and a history of terrible company outreach via Games Workshop. Despite its flaws, 40k was the king of tabletop for a long time. However, X-Wing rapidly took a ton of players from 40k and became the top dog. Why?

Well, for starters, games like 40k are prohibitively expensive. Most of the hardcores I knew who were able to keep up with the competitive national meta were younger white men in their late 20s to early 40s with high-paying jobs. Those guys were able to spend not only to travel to events, but also cycle through the newest armies and pay people to paint their armies for them. Moreover, 40k has an extremely high entry barrier. Armies are expensive, the rules are expensive, and players need terrain as well. While one did not need to purchase every new codex (and most of the casual crowd I knew did not), what the pay-to-play rules bring to a game is a culture of haves and have nots. If you want to compete, you need to know every army inside and out. That means buying (or pirating) rules. Competitive players bringing their kitted out armies against casual players led to a ton of "gotcha" moments because of the sheer volume of rules. A fractured community quickly becomes toxic. Finally, 40k and many tabletop games like it take a ton of time to play. 40k games routinely took 3 hours, and playing 3-4 games of that in a day for tournaments is a huge slog.

What GW sold to (and largely still sells to) is the nebulous idea of the "veteran wargamer" and what they want. A bloat of rules, expensive (but super nice and customizable minis), and loads of backstory can be appealing elements. The same goes with putting down tons of toys to play a longer game. As I've gotten older and busier, I simply don't have the time or money for games like 40k though. I have one night a week to game, and playing one game of 40k is far less appealing than getting in three games of Runewars. Chasing the competitive meta is also exhausting. Buying, selling, and painting a ton of hyper detailed minis is a commitment I just can't make anymore. I'd also argue that paying for rules is absolutely insane and antiquated. Not only that, but the "I go, you go" system of 40k and older games is super anachronistic too.

Add to this the fact that Runewars has a ton of depth. Even with limited units, I never see the same list (and our local events routinely pull 10 players). Missions and deployment options add layers to the game. I also like that Runewars has some cool characters that defy much of what I've seen in older wargames. Female characters that aren't overly sexed up speak to the idea that, yes, there are people other than men who want to play tabletop wargames.

So overall, my response is that I get your argument. At the same time, screw the idea of pandering to veteran wargamers . Tons of people who would never have touched tabletop 10 years ago are picking up more accessible, affordable, and time-appropriate games because companies like FFG decided to create games that would appeal to people other than dudes with tons of free time and money.

Well while I totally empathize with general disgust of Games-workshops handling of games, treatment of the community and the unfairness of competitive "pay to win" play that was often associated with "veteran" gamers, it doesn't really change the fact that people love the game despite all that. 40k remains one of the most popular and played miniatures games out there and you are right, it was dethroned by Star Wars X-Wing, but you are wrong that X-Wing is a competing miniature game. Its a pre-painted game you play with models, but its success is driven by the franchise (Star Wars) and the fact that for all intense and purposes its no more or less accessible than a board game. In fact, by today's standards its rules are simpler than most board game designs that come out of FFG and the entry point is dirt cheap. In short, people who play X-Wing aren't typically practicing miniatures war gamers, it lacks the key ingridiant most miniature gamers look for, aka, assembling and painting custom models.

Neither Runewars or 40k are in competition with X-Wing. Runewars is a true miniature game and while considerably more accessible than 40k, its not going to draw in board gamers anymore than 40k does. Sure there is always cross-over but someone who plays 40k and is looking to get into a new miniature game is far more likely to be looking at games like Runewars, Age of Sigmar, Warmachine, Warzone, Legion or something along those lines than X-Wing or Armada. These are players who have the paints, glues, green-stuff etc.. and consider the art aspect of the hobby to be as important as playing the game and painting miniatures is no more or less attractive to someone getting into the hobby as a new player. The "difficulty" or "requirements" are really not any lower for Runewars than for other games, this is an old wives tale. These games all have "box sets" for around 100 bucks and expansions that go for 25-30. An Age of Sigmar army isn't going to cost a whole lot less than Runewars and for that matter I can tell you from experience that keeping up with the competitive meta in X-Wing is not in any way shape or form any less expensive than with any other competitive game. Its always expensive. More importantly the competitive community is a tiny fraction of the customer base, the vast majority of people who play these games don't do it competitively or even play at brick and mortar shops. These communities are tiny and that is an exaggeration of how big they are.

Runewars success is going to be driven by people who want to assemble and paint armies and while I agree with you that's a great ruleset, far superior to anything Gamesworkshop ever came up with, just like in the role-playing universe, there is an adherence to tradition and sacred cows that game makers simply will never be able to undo. D&D for example remains the reigning champion and the only time in history of RPG's when it was dethroned was when it strayed from tradition, scuffed at sacred cows and decided to "do something different". People demanded a return to "old school" and today, 5e is basically the same game that 2e and 3e was, improved to be sure, but traditional, living by the sacred cows and as expected its back on top by a margin so wide the only game that is even close to it is a clone of 3rd edition D&D (Pathfinder).

This is because veterans control the market in RPG's and the same is true in miniature games. There is no revolution, or explosion or some sort of new era for miniature games. There are new generations of gamers coming in all the time but their introductions to the hobby are not through websites or brick and mortar marketing, introductions happen almost exclusively through the passing of the torch, from veteran to newbie. Whatever the veterans are playing, that is the game they will be introducing to new players and that is what new players will be picking up. If you don't capture veterans, you stand no chance in this market and right now Runewars is largely losing to veterans because "its something different"... being something different is not the key to success in this market. Some sacred cows have to be adhered to. Big lore books is one of them, customization, high quality miniatures, lots of unique and different armies and all that stuff is key.

I do think that Runewars could come out on top, its a young game and it really is in its infancy, but I agree with the above posters that Star Wars Legion is a lot easier game to pull of the shelves. Its far more likely to be embraced by the miniatures game community because its Star Wars and if it does take off and FFG is making a ton of money on it, I agree with the above posters that Runewars may end up having some serious problems. It doesn't have the big "auto-buy" franchise that Legion has, in fact, it kind of has the opposite, a franchise with a reputation as being "generic and boring", a key point in pretty much every review you will ever read about the game.

Just my two cents, again, I'm rooting for them, I do agree that it's a great game and deserves far more love than it's getting but right it appears to be very much a familiar Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3.0 kind of situation. A lot of initial hype and hoopla-ha but not much follow through.

Well, there is room for more than one game. One generally will subsidize the other.

As RW / Terrinoth is FFG's own IP, it will probably live on for quite awhile and grow... even if over shadowed by others.

Long live the underdog!! Long live Waiqar the Undying!!

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Well while I totally empathize with general disgust of Games-workshops handling of games, treatment of the community and the unfairness of competitive "pay to win" play that was often associated with "veteran" gamers, it doesn't really change the fact that people love the game despite all that. 40k remains one of the most popular and played miniatures games out there and you are right, it was dethroned by Star Wars X-Wing, but you are wrong that X-Wing is a competing miniature game. Its a pre-painted game you play with models, but its success is driven by the franchise (Star Wars) and the fact that for all intense and purposes its no more or less accessible than a board game. In fact, by today's standards its rules are simpler than most board game designs that come out of FFG and the entry point is dirt cheap. In short, people who play X-Wing aren't typically practicing miniatures war gamers, it lacks the key ingridiant most miniature gamers look for, aka, assembling and painting custom models.

Neither Runewars or 40k are in competition with X-Wing. Runewars is a true miniature game and while considerably more accessible than 40k, its not going to draw in board gamers anymore than 40k does. Sure there is always cross-over but someone who plays 40k and is looking to get into a new miniature game is far more likely to be looking at games like Runewars, Age of Sigmar, Warmachine, Warzone, Legion or something along those lines than X-Wing or Armada. These are players who have the paints, glues, green-stuff etc.. and consider the art aspect of the hobby to be as important as playing the game and painting miniatures is no more or less attractive to someone getting into the hobby as a new player. The "difficulty" or "requirements" are really not any lower for Runewars than for other games, this is an old wives tale. These games all have "box sets" for around 100 bucks and expansions that go for 25-30. An Age of Sigmar army isn't going to cost a whole lot less than Runewars and for that matter I can tell you from experience that keeping up with the competitive meta in X-Wing is not in any way shape or form any less expensive than with any other competitive game. Its always expensive. More importantly the competitive community is a tiny fraction of the customer base, the vast majority of people who play these games don't do it competitively or even play at brick and mortar shops. These communities are tiny and that is an exaggeration of how big they are.

Runewars success is going to be driven by people who want to assemble and paint armies and while I agree with you that's a great ruleset, far superior to anything Gamesworkshop ever came up with, just like in the role-playing universe, there is an adherence to tradition and sacred cows that game makers simply will never be able to undo. D&D for example remains the reigning champion and the only time in history of RPG's when it was dethroned was when it strayed from tradition, scuffed at sacred cows and decided to "do something different". People demanded a return to "old school" and today, 5e is basically the same game that 2e and 3e was, improved to be sure, but traditional, living by the sacred cows and as expected its back on top by a margin so wide the only game that is even close to it is a clone of 3rd edition D&D (Pathfinder).

This is because veterans control the market in RPG's and the same is true in miniature games. There is no revolution, or explosion or some sort of new era for miniature games. There are new generations of gamers coming in all the time but their introductions to the hobby are not through websites or brick and mortar marketing, introductions happen almost exclusively through the passing of the torch, from veteran to newbie. Whatever the veterans are playing, that is the game they will be introducing to new players and that is what new players will be picking up. If you don't capture veterans, you stand no chance in this market and right now Runewars is largely losing to veterans because "its something different"... being something different is not the key to success in this market. Some sacred cows have to be adhered to. Big lore books is one of them, customization, high quality miniatures, lots of unique and different armies and all that stuff is key.

I do think that Runewars could come out on top, its a young game and it really is in its infancy, but I agree with the above posters that Star Wars Legion is a lot easier game to pull of the shelves. Its far more likely to be embraced by the miniatures game community because its Star Wars and if it does take off and FFG is making a ton of money on it, I agree with the above posters that Runewars may end up having some serious problems. It doesn't have the big "auto-buy" franchise that Legion has, in fact, it kind of has the opposite, a franchise with a reputation as being "generic and boring", a key point in pretty much every review you will ever read about the game.

Just my two cents, again, I'm rooting for them, I do agree that it's a great game and deserves far more love than it's getting but right it appears to be very much a familiar Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3.0 kind of situation. A lot of initial hype and hoopla-ha but not much follow through.

Awesome post.....I couldn't agree more with your points.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Well while I totally empathize with general disgust of Games-workshops handling of games, treatment of the community and the unfairness of competitive "pay to win" play that was often associated with "veteran" gamers, it doesn't really change the fact that people love the game despite all that. 40k remains one of the most popular and played miniatures games out there and you are right, it was dethroned by Star Wars X-Wing, but you are wrong that X-Wing is a competing miniature game. Its a pre-painted game you play with models, but its success is driven by the franchise (Star Wars) and the fact that for all intense and purposes its no more or less accessible than a board game. In fact, by today's standards its rules are simpler than most board game designs that come out of FFG and the entry point is dirt cheap. In short, people who play X-Wing aren't typically practicing miniatures war gamers, it lacks the key ingridiant most miniature gamers look for, aka, assembling and painting custom models.

I get what you are saying, but I absolutely believe X-Wing is a competitor to games like 40k, insofar as both are tabletop games and I have seen players make the direct switch. There is also a large segment of players that have entered into the tabletop gaming realm for the first time because of the prepainted/preassembled aspect of X-Wing. Runewars splits the difference in a way that appeals to a segment of population in-between the hardcore hobbyist and the lazyperson of X-Wing. You'd be surprised how many 40k players I knew that had zero interest in painting and modeling--ruleset and game popularity was everything to a good segment of the competitive population.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Neither Runewars or 40k are in competition with X-Wing. Runewars is a true miniature game and while considerably more accessible than 40k, its not going to draw in board gamers anymore than 40k does. Sure there is always cross-over but someone who plays 40k and is looking to get into a new miniature game is far more likely to be looking at games like Runewars, Age of Sigmar, Warmachine, Warzone, Legion or something along those lines than X-Wing or Armada. These are players who have the paints, glues, green-stuff etc.. and consider the art aspect of the hobby to be as important as playing the game and painting miniatures is no more or less attractive to someone getting into the hobby as a new player. The "difficulty" or "requirements" are really not any lower for Runewars than for other games, this is an old wives tale. These games all have "box sets" for around 100 bucks and expansions that go for 25-30. An Age of Sigmar army isn't going to cost a whole lot less than Runewars and for that matter I can tell you from experience that keeping up with the competitive meta in X-Wing is not in any way shape or form any less expensive than with any other competitive game. Its always expensive. More importantly the competitive community is a tiny fraction of the customer base, the vast majority of people who play these games don't do it competitively or even play at brick and mortar shops. These communities are tiny and that is an exaggeration of how big they are.

Completely disagree. I have personally seen people who have not been a part of other tabletop games get into Runewars because of smaller time and monetary investment. Saying Runewars is not significantly cheaper than other tabletop is disingenuous as well. One can easily make a 200 point Runewars army for well under $200, and I made my own list for under $175. You are kidding yourself if you can play 40k or X-Wing at that pricepoint. On top of that, you don't need terrain for RW; no games using bananas, coke cans, and cardboard boxes for newbies.

1 hour ago, BigKahuna said:

Runewars success is going to be driven by people who want to assemble and paint armies and while I agree with you that's a great ruleset, far superior to anything Gamesworkshop ever came up with, just like in the role-playing universe, there is an adherence to tradition and sacred cows that game makers simply will never be able to undo. D&D for example remains the reigning champion and the only time in history of RPG's when it was dethroned was when it strayed from tradition, scuffed at sacred cows and decided to "do something different". People demanded a return to "old school" and today, 5e is basically the same game that 2e and 3e was, improved to be sure, but traditional, living by the sacred cows and as expected its back on top by a margin so wide the only game that is even close to it is a clone of 3rd edition D&D (Pathfinder).

I'm not ready to say this thinking is correct. The idea that the past dictates the future of miniature gaming seems insincere based on changing player demographics and popularity.

2 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

This is because veterans control the market in RPG's and the same is true in miniature games. There is no revolution, or explosion or some sort of new era for miniature games. There are new generations of gamers coming in all the time but their introductions to the hobby are not through websites or brick and mortar marketing, introductions happen almost exclusively through the passing of the torch, from veteran to newbie. Whatever the veterans are playing, that is the game they will be introducing to new players and that is what new players will be picking up. If you don't capture veterans, you stand no chance in this market and right now Runewars is largely losing to veterans because "its something different"... being something different is not the key to success in this market. Some sacred cows have to be adhered to. Big lore books is one of them, customization, high quality miniatures, lots of unique and different armies and all that stuff is key.

See above. I've been going to game stores for almost two decades. The demographics have changed a ton (and for the better). You might be right--there might be some things that never change. I'm not so certain about that. Agree to disagree I guess.

2 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I do think that Runewars could come out on top, its a young game and it really is in its infancy, but I agree with the above posters that Star Wars Legion is a lot easier game to pull of the shelves. Its far more likely to be embraced by the miniatures game community because its Star Wars and if it does take off and FFG is making a ton of money on it, I agree with the above posters that Runewars may end up having some serious problems. It doesn't have the big "auto-buy" franchise that Legion has, in fact, it kind of has the opposite, a franchise with a reputation as being "generic and boring", a key point in pretty much every review you will ever read about the game.

Just my two cents, again, I'm rooting for them, I do agree that it's a great game and deserves far more love than it's getting but right it appears to be very much a familiar Warhammer Fantasy RPG 3.0 kind of situation. A lot of initial hype and hoopla-ha but not much follow through.

I'm with you in that I'm rooting hard for Runewars. I hope and believe that this could be a great year that solidifies this game, but FFG is going to have to drive that, not the players themselves. News, a campaign, expansions--all of those elements could push Runewars into the spotlight as a very different kind of tabletop game that has an appeal to players who aren't willing to spend a ton of money getting into the game, a ton of time and effort assembling minis, and a lot of hours playing one match.

I'll be curious to see if the more complex Legion minis hold the attention of the flavor of the month gamers who pick up the game based on X-Wing familiarity. There is definitely a large segment of the gaming population that likes simpler models (and this is an aspect you seem to underestimate). Again, I fully admit I could be wrong, but there seems to be openings for a different kind of tabletop game that combines simplicity, low cost, easy assembly, quick games, and a surprisingly complex ruleset.

Everyone here is making great points and I agree and disagree across the numerous posts, but here is me:

I'm a X wing - Armada - Guild ball - 30k/40k player. I had no interest in RuneWars until my local gaming club decided to give it a crack due to 40k being in the worst state it had been in years and Infinity just wasn't doing it for people. I checked the lore, standard - Humans v Undead. My first thought, "I bet elves turn up . . maybe even Orcs. . . " We got the elves and the Uthuk are filling in the crazed, selfless blood hungry World Eaterrrgh I mean Orcs. So with that typical step taken, I looked at the rules and was pleasantly surprised.

Ten people at my club jumped on the pre-orders. Our two local stores enjoyed the boon in sales and I decided to dodge it until I saw it for myself. One BeerHammer / BeerWars evening later at a friends house and I now own 200 + points of Waiqur.

Four months on and unfortunately, NO ONE at the club plays it anymore due to the sleeping beast that is 40k decided to wake up and release 8th and release improvement after improvement. Seriously, no one. Not one person. The two stores don't even hold stock for it anymore and I am having to travel to obscure stores holding a "one off" event or even to a complete strangers garage to get a few games in. Don't get me wrong, I've done all the OP kits so far and they have been enjoyable, I just wish it was a little bit easier.

Now, I have tried to talk to the "old guard" and neckbeards about RuneWars and I get:

"That's the Age of Shitmar clone right?"
"Is that the one where the "world" event had like 12 players and was won by a guy that bought their army on the day, unpainted and unassembled?"
"How can you play a game with no terrain?"
"Oh yeah, the card game right?"

Now I'm happy to correct these people but it get's a little bit disheartening with each try and the more I see Destiny and Legion being pushed, my hope fades that ever bit more. I want the game to do well, I'm invested, I enjoy playing it but it's difficult to see the light through the clouds sometimes, especially when I look at my next purchase and it being a single box of Wraiths, which I likely will only use a few times just because before I go back to my Carrion/Blight/Knight list which seems to do really well right now and likely will until Uthuk gets another four more add ons.

On 1/10/2018 at 7:28 AM, BigKahuna said:

One was that the lack of good and expanded lore would be a problem for the game and it is. Its a common complaint that the game world of Terrinoth is very bland and uninspiring. The Miniatures hobby is very heavily linked to the role-playing hobby, gamers in this hobby love their lore, its a critical part of the experience, its absence in Runewars is a big detractor. It's great that they are creating an RPG book for the world, this is exactly the sort of thing this game needs.

I'm agreeing about the lore. I know nothing about Terrinoth, and the lore guide that came with the core set is so crap I still don't. Who's this Waiqar bloke and why is he mad at the humans? Where did the demons come from? RW really needs a lore that a) makes the setting unique and detailed and b) is actually accessible.

23 hours ago, JGrand said:

Well, for starters, games like 40k are prohibitively expensive. Most of the hardcores I knew who were able to keep up with the competitive national meta were younger white men in their late 20s to early 40s with high-paying jobs. Those guys were able to spend not only to travel to events, but also cycle through the newest armies and pay people to paint their armies for them. Moreover, 40k has an extremely high entry barrier. Armies are expensive, the rules are expensive, and players need terrain as well. While one did not need to purchase every new codex (and most of the casual crowd I knew did not), what the pay-to-play rules bring to a game is a culture of haves and have nots. If you want to compete, you need to know every army inside and out. That means buying (or pirating) rules. Competitive players bringing their kitted out armies against casual players led to a ton of "gotcha" moments because of the sheer volume of rules. A fractured community quickly becomes toxic. Finally, 40k and many tabletop games like it take a ton of time to play. 40k games routinely took 3 hours, and playing 3-4 games of that in a day for tournaments is a huge slog.

Unfortunately 40K is a bit of a catch 22 situation: people only play the game because other people play it. It's a popular game, so you're more likely to find other people to play with, so you collect that instead of smaller games. Which means more people play, so more people collect it etc. I live in the GW heartlands, and because of this it's nigh-on impossible for a smaller game to get a decent player base. It's infuriating.

2 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

"That's the Age of Shitmar clone right?"

I'm triggered so hard. I hope you took them outside and beat them.

I personally think the sales pitch "more accessible and cheaper" is heavily overstated when it comes to Runewars. Its "slightly" cheaper and "a bit easier" to get into, but its hardly cheap or easy. You still need to buy all the paints, glue, brushes etc.., after the 100 dollar core set you still have half a game at best and if you want to be competitive your still going to have to buy two of everything at least which is going to run you in the 500+ dollar range. Its the same with X-Wing. Sure its easier because you don't have to paint but X-Wing is hardly cheap, I have a collection worth 1,000 bucks on my shelf that is still incomplete to prove that.

Miniature gaming is a heavy gaming hobby, it requires a lot of time, effort and money. Sure with some hype and a good reputation like FFG you can twist some cliff divers to drop the 100 bucks on a core set, but creating a community, creating a sustained game. You delusional if you think you can do it without the hardcore veterans support. Unless you get their support, a year from now we will be on this forum and you'll be telling us how FFG "f'ed up Runewars" with a laundry list of things you think "they should have done", but the bottom line is that unless veterans are buying your game, its going nowhere fast. FFG needs their support and to do that, they need to cater to hardcore miniature gamers which is why I have said it all along. If Runewars was a pre-painted, pre-assembled mini game like X-Wing was, everyone would be playing it right now. As a hobby game, its got a lot of shortcomings.

3 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I personally think the sales pitch "more accessible and cheaper" is heavily overstated when it comes to Runewars. Its "slightly" cheaper and "a bit easier" to get into, but its hardly cheap or easy. You still need to buy all the paints, glue, brushes etc.., after the 100 dollar core set you still have half a game at best and if you want to be competitive your still going to have to buy two of everything at least which is going to run you in the 500+ dollar range. Its the same with X-Wing. Sure its easier because you don't have to paint but X-Wing is hardly cheap, I have a collection worth 1,000 bucks on my shelf that is still incomplete to prove that.

Dude...come on...

One of my fellow podcasters has three RW armies. I don't know that he has even spent $500 total. The idea that you need "two of everything" is just not true. I can easily provide a host of under $200 lists. The core set at $100 is misleading as well. It is on Amazon right now for $58. My local store does 15% off, and discounts like that are increasingly common. Moreover, you split the set with a friend or re-sell the half you don't want. You have made some good points so far, but don't make stuff up; it is, quite frankly, not helping your case.

3 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Miniature gaming is a heavy gaming hobby, it requires a lot of time, effort and money. Sure with some hype and a good reputation like FFG you can twist some cliff divers to drop the 100 bucks on a core set, but creating a community, creating a sustained game. You delusional if you think you can do it without the hardcore veterans support. Unless you get their support, a year from now we will be on this forum and you'll be telling us how FFG "f'ed up Runewars" with a laundry list of things you think "they should have done", but the bottom line is that unless veterans are buying your game, its going nowhere fast. FFG needs their support and to do that, they need to cater to hardcore miniature gamers which is why I have said it all along. If Runewars was a pre-painted, pre-assembled mini game like X-Wing was, everyone would be playing it right now. As a hobby game, its got a lot of shortcomings.

Here is the big disagreement. I believe, and have seen, lots of people get into Runewars and newer games because they buck the trend of the old-school tabletop games. RW is far from perfect, but FFG blunders are far more impactful than chasing the mystical beast that is the veteran wargamer in explaining the game's slow start. Give RW four full factions at launch and we aren't having this conversation.

New demographics are venturing into game stores because "geek is chic" these days. Games like X-Wing (at least in the beginning) have grabbed new markets and proved you don't need bloated rules, tomes of backstory, and massive monetary investments to get into tabletop.

Again...agree to disagree here. No point in continually rehashing this debate. You don't think the game will take off, I am not ready to go that far. /shrug

I agree with above. I've paid full price for EVERYTHING. Paint, glue, you name it. I'm for sure in less than $300 and have a pretty diverse army.

18 minutes ago, TheWiseGuy said:

I agree with above. I've paid full price for EVERYTHING. Paint, glue, you name it. I'm for sure in less than $300 and have a pretty diverse army.

It helps that you won an Uthuk Army Expansion and Infantry Command Unit Upgrade pack from the FFG giveaway .

I'm just messing with you. I'm pretty sure you were referring to your main army. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure what your main faction is. Judging by your avatar, I'm guessing Waiqar.

Quote

Dude...come on...

One of my fellow podcasters has three RW armies. I don't know that he has even spent $500 total. The idea that you need "two of everything" is just not true. I can easily provide a host of under $200 lists. The core set at $100 is misleading as well. It is on Amazon right now for $58. My local store does 15% off, and discounts like that are increasingly common. Moreover, you split the set with a friend or re-sell the half you don't want. You have made some good points so far, but don't make stuff up; it is, quite frankly, not helping your case.

Ok again, this is totally off-base and disingenuous. Of course you can find "stuff on sale", but that is kind of not the point here, if we aren't going to judge it on retail price and base it on finding a cheap route to an army, I can buy a 2,000 point already painted army of Age of Sigmar on E-bay for around 100 bucks today. You can get the Age of Sigmar box on sale on Amazon for 28 bucks. During Christmas you could buy the 40k starter set for 99 bucks and that comes with 53 miniatures, complete rulebook, even terrain. The games are price competitive, its complete non-sense to claim that Runewars is some sort of dirt cheap entry point into the hobby, you can get into any of these games inside of 100 bucks. I'm sure you could build good lists under 200 bucks in Runewars, you can do so easily in any miniature game.

Runewars is slightly cheaper and that is largely the result of it not selling well so its put on sale.

Quote

Here is the big disagreement. I believe, and have seen, lots of people get into Runewars and newer games because they buck the trend of the old-school tabletop games. RW is far from perfect, but FFG blunders are far more impactful than chasing the mystical beast that is the veteran wargamer in explaining the game's slow start. Give RW four full factions at launch and we aren't having this conversation.

New demographics are venturing into game stores because "geek is chic" these days. Games like X-Wing (at least in the beginning) have grabbed new markets and proved you don't need bloated rules, tomes of backstory, and massive monetary investments to get into tabletop.

Again...agree to disagree here. No point in continually rehashing this debate. You don't think the game will take off, I am not ready to go that far. /shrug

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you that there are new people joining the hobby thanks to games like X-Wing, Armada, Runewars etc.. that have simpler, easier to absorb rulesets. What I'm trying explain to you is that this ALWAYS happens with EVERY miniature game. There is always a big influx of new players joining the hobby when new games come out. Now X-Wing is unique in that, its really a board game masquerading as a miniature game. X-Wing has the franchise, pre-painted/pre-assembled and its ruleset takes 2 minutes to explain and 30 minutes to play, its in a league of its own. Runewars on the other hand is a competing product to other paint/assemble miniatures game, its competing for the same audience and while I agree with you that on release there was a rush to buy core sets based on hype and excitement of a new FFG product, the question is who will be playing Runewars a year from now when the hype is gone and the game has to stand on its own as a competing product with the like of AOS, 40k, Warmachine etc.. Games embraced by veteran communities that have made them successful for decades? If you think its going to be the casual "I'll give it a try" community your kidding yourself. These dabblers don't stick around.

Think of all the successful products in the history of gaming. Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons, Warhammer 40k... These games have plenty of dabblers but their success is always driven by an established community that embraces it for the long haul, lifetime hobbyiest.

The term veteran gamer has this weird "elitism" reputation as if its a bad thing to be a veteran gamer. There is always this odd rejection of this community in the forum of political correctness as if there is a wierd will on its own trying to find a way to "defeat" them so that "the other people" can own a game.. its bizzare to me. Veteran gamers are fans that build and support gaming communities. Without them you really have absolutely nothing. They are the core fan base driving the success of games, if they don't embrace and support your game your screwed. FFG has already learned this less the hardway once with Warhammer Fantasty RPG 3.0. That game failed miserably and it did so because they thought they could release a Warhammer Fantasy RPG and ignore the veterans. They honestly believe that their was some "other" audience that they could tap into... and for a time it worked.. but in the end, it was rejected by the WFRPG community and the game died a very premature death.

Runewars is going to face the same problem and I really don't understand the resistance by this community to trying to garner the support of veteran miniature gamers. FFG should be doing their absolute best to try to attract 40k, AOS and Warmachine vets to this game. Having an attitude of "we don't need them" is the shortest possible route to the liquidation bin.

6 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

the question is who will be playing Runewars a year from now when the hype is gone and the game has to stand on its own as a competing product with the like of AOS, 40k, Warmachine etc.

Me!

I’m a veteran gamer dating back to Laserburn (the game that became 40k) and WHFB 2nd Ed. I’m into Rune Wars because of the rules and lore (I’ve played a lot of Descent, Runebound, etc). I’m also greatful that I don’t have to deal with so much of the “hobby” BS that goes with a Workshop game. Veteran gamers are not a homogenous group, and plenty of us sit somewhere between X-Wing’s, “thank the gods, no painting!” and GW’s, “Each of the 500 figures in my army must have an individual pose and a hero paint job!” Interest in Rune Wars is growing among veteran gamers here. WFB being killed for AoS left a lot of us wanting a game like Rune Wars, and FFG are proving a good pace of release and price point, especially for those of us with families.

14 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Ok again, this is totally off-base and disingenuous. Of course you can find "stuff on sale", but that is kind of not the point here, if we aren't going to judge it on retail price and base it on finding a cheap route to an army, I can buy a 2,000 point already painted army of Age of Sigmar on E-bay for around 100 bucks today. You can get the Age of Sigmar box on sale on Amazon for 28 bucks. During Christmas you could buy the 40k starter set for 99 bucks and that comes with 53 miniatures, complete rulebook, even terrain. The games are price competitive, its complete non-sense to claim that Runewars is some sort of dirt cheap entry point into the hobby, you can get into any of these games inside of 100 bucks. I'm sure you could build good lists under 200 bucks in Runewars, you can do so easily in any miniature game.

Runewars is slightly cheaper and that is largely the result of it not selling well so its put on sale.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you that there are new people joining the hobby thanks to games like X-Wing, Armada, Runewars etc.. that have simpler, easier to absorb rulesets. What I'm trying explain to you is that this ALWAYS happens with EVERY miniature game. There is always a big influx of new players joining the hobby when new games come out. Now X-Wing is unique in that, its really a board game masquerading as a miniature game. X-Wing has the franchise, pre-painted/pre-assembled and its ruleset takes 2 minutes to explain and 30 minutes to play, its in a league of its own. Runewars on the other hand is a competing product to other paint/assemble miniatures game, its competing for the same audience and while I agree with you that on release there was a rush to buy core sets based on hype and excitement of a new FFG product, the question is who will be playing Runewars a year from now when the hype is gone and the game has to stand on its own as a competing product with the like of AOS, 40k, Warmachine etc.. Games embraced by veteran communities that have made them successful for decades? If you think its going to be the casual "I'll give it a try" community your kidding yourself. These dabblers don't stick around.

Think of all the successful products in the history of gaming. Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons, Warhammer 40k... These games have plenty of dabblers but their success is always driven by an established community that embraces it for the long haul, lifetime hobbyiest.

The term veteran gamer has this weird "elitism" reputation as if its a bad thing to be a veteran gamer. There is always this odd rejection of this community in the forum of political correctness as if there is a wierd will on its own trying to find a way to "defeat" them so that "the other people" can own a game.. its bizzare to me. Veteran gamers are fans that build and support gaming communities. Without them you really have absolutely nothing. They are the core fan base driving the success of games, if they don't embrace and support your game your screwed. FFG has already learned this less the hardway once with Warhammer Fantasty RPG 3.0. That game failed miserably and it did so because they thought they could release a Warhammer Fantasy RPG and ignore the veterans. They honestly believe that their was some "other" audience that they could tap into... and for a time it worked.. but in the end, it was rejected by the WFRPG community and the game died a very premature death.

Runewars is going to face the same problem and I really don't understand the resistance by this community to trying to garner the support of veteran miniature gamers. FFG should be doing their absolute best to try to attract 40k, AOS and Warmachine vets to this game. Having an attitude of "we don't need them" is the shortest possible route to the liquidation bin.

Totally agree. Wizards of the Coast learned this the hard way thinking they can totally revamp D&D with 4.0 and tap into to the more casual and/or video game MMORPG crowd. Instead they ended up pissing off the "Veteran Gamer" who truly supports their products and just about everyone dissed the "new D&D" that was 4.0. The casual player bought the game initially to check it out but didn't stick around with continued plays or purchases of the expansions. The result was that Pathfinder which was based on D&D 3.5 took over the RPG market as the "Veteran Gamers" flocked to that game and stole the crown away from Wizards of The Coast and D&D in terms of sales. Anyone familiar with RPGs knows that Pathfinder is not a casual friendly game due to its huge ruleset and the "crunchiness" and complexities of its mechanics. But it became number one because it appealed to the old guard, veteran RPG community not the passerby that D&D 4.0 tried to target. As a result, WOTC got smart, canned 4.0 prematurely and did a hard reset with the release 5.0 that had much more appeal to the old guard and new comers alike. They asked the veteran gamer what they wanted to see in a D&D RPG and designed that game around a ton of feedback. Now D&D 5.0 is on top and dare I say is making RPG gaming cool and trendy. That would of never happened if they didn't also appeal to the veteran gamer who are devoted to the genre. WOTC has the best of both worlds now....something FFG is going to need to figure out if they are going to release a viable product with a long shelf life in the hobby miniature wargaming market.....Runewars is not going to cut it.

Game companies like FFG and Games Workshop don't care what games you have in your closet or that you already bought heavily into RMG, 40k or AoS. They care about present and future sales.....continuously moving product. A game can have the best rule set ever but if sales don't meet expectations and a profit isn't being made or maintained then it will get canned. GW canned their initial flagship game Warhammer Fantasy because its current sales were in the toilet. They didn't care that a huge number of gamers had existing Warhammer Fantasy armies.....no one was buying anything new. The veteran gamers where into different games rather than Fantasy anymore. So they hit the hard reset on their fantasy line with the release of AoS to try to start making a profit again with their Fantasy miniatures.

The launch for AoS was shaky at first but they listened to the community feedback (something GW never used to do) made revisions and now its selling much better than Warhammer Fantasy did in several years. They designed 40k 8th edition largely on community feedback from the veteran gamers and its arguably the best version of 40k released. The result is huge sales, and smaller games such as RMG are struggling to compete for gamer's dollars. New comers to the hobby are going to purchase and play what's being played. When a potential new customer walks into a FLGS and sees 5 games of 40k being played but no one playing RMG chances are if they buy anything with the notion of wanting to play with a community at the store it will be 40k or anything else that is being played at the store.

As been stated miniature wargames is a huge time and money commitment from its players. Very few are going to waste their time or money on a game that isn't played by anyone now matter how cool it may look on the box or how solid the rules are. If they do, chances are they will unload it on eBay to cash out after they realize its just sitting in their closet unplayed. X-wing is a different beast all together and I wouldn't consider it a traditional miniatures wargame like 40k, AoS, Warmachine, Bolt Action, etc. that RMG or Legion is trying to portray. X-wing is huge because its Star Wars, its pre-painted so no prep work or hobby work is needed, and it plays fast with a pretty descent ruleset thats easy to understand. It appeals more to board gamers and LCG/CCG players which is a much more broader audience who couldn't be bothered with painting miniatures and the other "overhead" that goes into the miniature wargaming hobby.

On 1/11/2018 at 4:19 PM, JGrand said:

Here is the big disagreement. I believe, and have seen, lots of people get into Runewars and newer games because they buck the trend of the old-school tabletop games. RW is far from perfect, but FFG blunders are far more impactful than chasing the mystical beast that is the veteran wargamer in explaining the game's slow start. Give RW four full factions at launch and we aren't having this conversation.

New demographics are venturing into game stores because "geek is chic" these days. Games like X-Wing (at least in the beginning) have grabbed new markets and proved you don't need bloated rules, tomes of backstory, and massive monetary investments to get into tabletop.

Again...agree to disagree here. No point in continually rehashing this debate. You don't think the game will take off, I am not ready to go that far. /shrug

I'm only one person, and my local RW community is indeed pretty small, but I did get into Runewars knowing nothing about miniature games.

Coming from the boardgaming community, and pretty new at that, I got into RW a total noob, knowing nothing about anything mini related, after a single demo at my local store by two so called "veteran players" who had been playing miniature games for decades. They were extremely friendly and jovial individuals who were very excited to introduce the game to someone like me, who knows nothing about miniature games. I still don't know that much, but I know that I love this game! Not many people might get into this hobby the way I did, after only doing some preemptive research and going to the local store, but it is possible.

I think the problem, as was pointed out, lies in the fact that miniature games do not seem friendly to people who have never played them, no matter how clean and simple they are designed, as is the case with RW. The price, the scale, the time invested, etc... It all seems daunting, not just to me, but to my friends and local boardgaming community as well. I don't know anything about getting "veteran gamers" invested, or if such a name even means anything, but my point is, the game is very well designed and fun to play for reasons that you all know, and I agree with @JGrand , the downfall of this game will come from FFG blunders, not enough advertisement and web support.

I feel like they could take some really simple steps to get a lot of people interested, like putting out an official rules or demo video, like they did for Arkham Horror LCG (that video is really well done! It made me want to play even though I had no initial interest whatsoever), or posting some articles filled with interviews or profiles of players who got into the game, how they did and why they like it, show pictures of them playing at their local store, etc... I know I am being naive, but I feel like the only thing the game needs is exposure: showing people what the game IS, in truth, that it's not that complex nor expensive, that it's great! Breaking the stereotypes and misconceptions people have about Runewars and more generally miniature games would be I think a huge boon to the community, and a lot of players would get invested in it as a result (at least that is my hope !)

17 minutes ago, Alicitorte said:

I'm only one person, and my local RW community is indeed pretty small, but I did get into Runewars knowing nothing about miniature games.

Coming from the boardgaming community, and pretty new at that, I got into RW a total noob, knowing nothing about anything mini related, after a single demo at my local store by two so called "veteran players" who had been playing miniature games for decades. They were extremely friendly and jovial individuals who were very excited to introduce the game to someone like me, who knows nothing about miniature games. I still don't know that much, but I know that I love this game! Not many people might get into this hobby the way I did, after only doing some preemptive research and going to the local store, but it is possible.

I think the problem, as was pointed out, lies in the fact that miniature games do not seem friendly to people who have never played them, no matter how clean and simple they are designed, as is the case with RW. The price, the scale, the time invested, etc... It all seems daunting, not just to me, but to my friends and local boardgaming community as well. I don't know anything about getting "veteran gamers" invested, or if such a name even means anything, but my point is, the game is very well designed and fun to play for reasons that you all know, and I agree with @JGrand , the downfall of this game will come from FFG blunders, not enough advertisement and web support.

I feel like they could take some really simple steps to get a lot of people interested, like putting out an official rules or demo video, like they did for Arkham Horror LCG (that video is really well done! It made me want to play even though I had no initial interest whatsoever), or posting some articles filled with interviews or profiles of players who got into the game, how they did and why they like it, show pictures of them playing at their local store, etc... I know I am being naive, but I feel like the only thing the game needs is exposure: showing people what the game IS, in truth, that it's not that complex nor expensive, that it's great! Breaking the stereotypes and misconceptions people have about Runewars and more generally miniature games would be I think a huge boon to the community, and a lot of players would get invested in it as a result (at least that is my hope !)

Great ideas...and they are doing all those things for Legion ?

8 hours ago, Alicitorte said:

I'm only one person, and my local RW community is indeed pretty small, but I did get into Runewars knowing nothing about miniature games.

Coming from the boardgaming community, and pretty new at that, I got into RW a total noob, knowing nothing about anything mini related, after a single demo at my local store by two so called "veteran players" who had been playing miniature games for decades. They were extremely friendly and jovial individuals who were very excited to introduce the game to someone like me, who knows nothing about miniature games. I still don't know that much, but I know that I love this game! Not many people might get into this hobby the way I did, after only doing some preemptive research and going to the local store, but it is possible.

I think the problem, as was pointed out, lies in the fact that miniature games do not seem friendly to people who have never played them, no matter how clean and simple they are designed, as is the case with RW. The price, the scale, the time invested, etc... It all seems daunting, not just to me, but to my friends and local boardgaming community as well. I don't know anything about getting "veteran gamers" invested, or if such a name even means anything, but my point is, the game is very well designed and fun to play for reasons that you all know, and I agree with @JGrand , the downfall of this game will come from FFG blunders, not enough advertisement and web support.

I feel like they could take some really simple steps to get a lot of people interested, like putting out an official rules or demo video, like they did for Arkham Horror LCG (that video is really well done! It made me want to play even though I had no initial interest whatsoever), or posting some articles filled with interviews or profiles of players who got into the game, how they did and why they like it, show pictures of them playing at their local store, etc... I know I am being naive, but I feel like the only thing the game needs is exposure: showing people what the game IS, in truth, that it's not that complex nor expensive, that it's great! Breaking the stereotypes and misconceptions people have about Runewars and more generally miniature games would be I think a huge boon to the community, and a lot of players would get invested in it as a result (at least that is my hope !)

Your not being naive at all there is plenty that FFG could do to promote the game, but the experience you described with veteran players being super friendly and inducting you into the game, this is how the vast majority of all new players to miniature games are inducted. This is the route to building game communities and establishing a player base. If you walked into that store and the two players told you Runewars was **** and you should play Age of Sigmar instead, do you really think you would be playing Runewars right now?

Veteran Gamers... without them, Runewars is screwed. I know many don't agree with this sentiment because it erks them to think that there is some sort of authority in the community that controls what games are successful or not, but that's just how it works. If you don't have the veteran miniature gamers at your back its simply not possible to be successful as a miniature game.

I know people always quote X-Wing as "the exception", but X-Wing is not an exception. Miniature game veterans are just gamers, they are just as often PC gamers, board gamers, card gamers etc... X-Wing is a great game, but its not a miniature hobby game, it just a game. It is a game along the lines of Descent or Imperial Assault, which are also not miniature games or part of the miniature hobby. Hanging your hopes on Runewars getting picked up like X-Wing is a fools erand. Runewars is not X-Wing. It doesn't have the franchise, its far more complex with a far larger barrier of entry. You are not going to see an X-Wing history repeat itself with Runewars.