Anyone else experience this? Since getting into Jigoku I've managed to play more than twice a week and to be honest I've gone from wanting to go to Cork and Paris and wanting to compete at the game to feeling like that would be an utter waste of days of work and hundreds of pounds.

Too often the game feels utterly lost or really bad on the first turn battle and a completely pointless way to waste over an hour and to be honest I drop in said first turn more often than not. I did it just now. Hit Restoration of balance on first hit and got hit for -6. Imagine I did that in Paris. Well done, hundreds of pounds down and because of the crap way tournaments are done once you've got one loss you're basically out of a chance and got a playmat and a useless promo for your 3 figures. The game is brutally swingy and not something I want to get on a plane to play. In fact, one of my boxes was free so if I sold that and the dozen promos I've managed to get and my plastic SH I'd be up on money. Game feelsbadman. I know I'm whinging and a noob and terrible and whatever, but I'm just venting and being real. Have a nice day.

I agree that the game can feel utterly lost or really bad on the first turn battle. But, you mention yourself that the game is brutally swingy. This goes both ways. One turn can be a turn where you get rolled and another turn where you return the favor. The fate mechanic is critical to this. I have learned that the game is not over on the first turn. You may be put at a severe disadvantage on the first turn, but that does not mean you cannot come back. I have had a game where I lost 2 provinces the first turn and broke none in return. However, I was able to come back and win the game after getting steamrolled the first turn without them even getting to my stronghold (iirc). In your case, hitting Restoration of Balance for -6 is your fault. Playing against Dragon you should recognize that they likely have that in their province lineup and bid lower until you hit it or if you have a Pathfinder's Blade. I played against Lion and I did not put fate on any of my guys because I recognized that they likely had Feast or Famine (I ended up winning that game as well). You have to adapt to your opponent. One game plan cannot work against everyone. I have played over 50+ games and I still have a lot to learn about the game

I like the game. I have played it a lot. But there are a few things in the rules that bug me. This is one of them....

I wish provinces were face up. As the OP stated, it is very disheartening to have your day ruined because your random number generator (1-4) picked 3 instead of 1. If you knew what you were getting into, attacks could be more strategic. I see no real justifiable reason for that information to be hidden.

As a middle ground, you could have the backs of each province be a big symbol representing their element. That way the attacker has a rough idea of what they are getting into without knowing the exact details.

That said, "my first attack went poorly" is no reason to quit the game. You say yourself that it's a very swingy game. One failed attack is hardly a reason to throw in the towel.

I can't count the number of times I felt like I was surely going to lose, and 15 minutes later winning. Or vice versa. This game is SWINGY. An early loss has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you'll lose the entire game. Don't let the frustration of a bad round spoil the game.

I first turn'ed a Way of the Crab on a Crane Champion with 2 fate on her and STILL lost. Solid tempo management (opponent misplays help too) can certainly balance out bad opening turns in this game.

Still, turns where you bounce from two attacks and opponents crush two provinces in return...that feels bad.

The problem here is with Jigoku. Too easy to rage quit.

I can’t count the times I’ve been playing against a friend (in person) and I made a play so bad that I have the urge to just quit. But I don’t do it because, well, he’s my friend and he’s right in front of me. We had to arrange the place and time to play. I owe him to end the game. And then, two turns later I’m winning.

With Jigoku you’re playing against a random stranger without little setup, so, in one of those bad play cases, you just decide to rage quit without remorse. And you do it, there’s no consequences, and it becomes an habit.

So my advice is: stop playing Jigoku.

2 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

That said, "my first attack went poorly" is no reason to quit the game. You say yourself that it's a very swingy game. One failed attack is hardly a reason to throw in the towel.

Honestly it feels like I need a reason not to, and this game can be soul crushing. Still, in all seriousness, I would have travelled to Ireland and France and probably completely wasted my time, so I feel like I've gotten some good value out of realizing I just don't respect this game at all.

1 hour ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Honestly it feels like I need a reason not to, and this game can be soul crushing. Still, in all seriousness, I would have travelled to Ireland and France and probably completely wasted my time, so I feel like I've gotten some good value out of realizing I just don't respect this game at all.

I would counter that you might need to get some more full games in before making that call. As has been pointed out its easy to come back from a bad turn (I've both done it and had it done to me) and you only improve by actually practicing so getting full games in will only make you a better player. FFG version of the game is not like O5R where 1 poor turn can basically mean the game is over and you have no way to recover, there is a much greater back and forth now and recovery is not only possible it is in many cases likely.

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nit Restoration of balance on first hit and got hit for -6.

So, you draw 5, plus destroy an Imperial Storehouse for a card, before hitting any province against Dragon and the issue is the game?

I think the game might just not be for you. I love the game. Having to plan around provinces is part of the game. I agree that some provinces are too strong (Feast). I hardly think Restoration is that province. It usually ends up being a discard 0 card, sometimes discard 1-2. Sure, I've hit my friend with a -10 cards once, but he hasn't played like an idiot since.

Maybe the game just ain't for you though, and that's fine. I just don't understand people's desire to state as such. I win most of my game, and I often can point to big mistakes my opponents are making and why they lose. I'm kind of surprise people still bid 5 on the first turn anyways. You can do better by having a lower bid I think. I've always been a proponent of 3 (unless I play honor pressure).

There's a reason I always mulligan for iuchi wayfinder

It's a shame that you're leaving, man. I've run into similar situations as the one you've described, learned from them, got better as a player. Ultimately practice games are nothing but a means to gathering data, and bad play is just as important as good - hopefully I don't replicate the same mistakes in competitive play, but I certainly make my share of bone-headed plays, especially during long draining events.

Taking part in competitive play is part challenging yourself, part gaining experience and getting better as a player, and part just socializing and making new friends. I think you're missing out on a lot by giving that up, and I hope you eventually return to the game.

2 hours ago, Seawhale said:

So, you draw 5, plus destroy an Imperial Storehouse for a card, before hitting any province against Dragon and the issue is the game?

I think the game might just not be for you. I love the game. Having to plan around provinces is part of the game. I agree that some provinces are too strong (Feast). I hardly think Restoration is that province. It usually ends up being a discard 0 card, sometimes discard 1-2. Sure, I've hit my friend with a -10 cards once, but he hasn't played like an idiot since.

Maybe the game just ain't for you though, and that's fine. I just don't understand people's desire to state as such. I win most of my game, and I often can point to big mistakes my opponents are making and why they lose. I'm kind of surprise people still bid 5 on the first turn anyways. You can do better by having a lower bid I think. I've always been a proponent of 3 (unless I play honor pressure).

He didn't break a store house, but raised his bid by one with the Manipulator. I personally don't agree with the OP, but I don't mind him venting his frustration. Maybe it will help him get into the game again after a short break.

I personally don't like the 3 bid, because the missing options can easily lead to an early disadvantage, but against Dragon you have to play cards in advance, have an active PB, or you probably shouldn't attack that turn.

3 hours ago, Ignithas said:

I personally don't agree with the OP, but I don't mind him venting his frustration. Maybe it will help him get into the game again after a short break.

I don't mind him venting. I just said I don't understand why people feel the need to vent, he is free to do as he please. I found the thread interesting enough to bother replying.

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I personally don't like the 3 bid, because the missing options can easily lead to an early disadvantage, but against Dragon you have to play cards in advance, have an active PB, or you probably shouldn't attack that turn.

But the game is swingy. That's part of the OP's problem. So it really doesn't matter if you get an early disadvantage as long as you can set up for the next turns. Where I play, most people play bid 1 on the first turn. Giving them 4 honor on the first turn is making it much harder to use my assassinations.

A break might help. If you are attacking blind into dragon with 10 cards in hand then you are gambling with your chances of winning. If hit restoration then you may well be screwed but it isn't the game causing that it's the choices made to get to that point...

Your will is weak and your resolve is brittle...but you can fix that. Learn from your opponents, roll with the punches, and stay zen when you get bodied. Playing Street Fighter for 25 years molded me as such.

The game is fantastic, with only 2-3 problem cards at the moment and a dire need for more cards/options. As long as we don't see more oversights like Policy Debate being printed as is, it's a bright future.

6 hours ago, Pop_Up_Window said:

Your will is weak and your resolve is brittle...but you can fix that. Learn from your opponents, roll with the punches, and stay zen when you get bodied. Playing Street Fighter for 25 years molded me as such.

The game is fantastic, with only 2-3 problem cards at the moment and a dire need for more cards/options. As long as we don't see more oversights like Policy Debate being printed as is, it's a bright future.

I like your chutzpah. Thats a lot of street fighter. I learned that lesson a lot quicker in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but thats the VEEERY hard way lol.

Its not a question of weak willpower its a question of worthwhile causes. Considering this game costs a considerable amount of time and money to play(and I dont just mean the packs I mean getting to and from events, even playing 3 quid to get in one game on a Tuesday night and waiting over an hour playing Hearthstone on my phone for that much) and very few rewards or incentive for doing so except a constant cyclic affirmation of its own existence and value then there is a problem. Other games dont give as much but cost nothing, or next to nothing, like Star Realms. Weight Training and jiu jitsu offer better, deeper, across-life rewards and if you want brain melting complexity then nothing comes close to BJJ. I live in a town with a third of a million people in it and about 3 of them play with any regularity, including myself.

I could dedicate myself to this game and maybe turn around the odd horrible feeling this game gives me into a horrible feeling the game can give them.

Why though?

What are you looking for here, Steve? Validation that you've made the 'right' decision, or attempts to convince you otherwise?

I'm a big believer in the power of positivity...why come on to a forum dedicated to a particular hobby just to rail against it? It very much looks like you're reached the conclusion that L5R is not for you, and I absolutely respect that opinion, but why piss on anyone else's chips, dude?

I don't expect my guess equates to the truth but it might be that long known phenomenon of Player A plays game B a lot. When Player A stops either because he (we'll use 'he' as it equates to 95% peeps here) has hit the equally recognised '2 year hobby cycle' and his brain is moving him elsewhere or due to a myriad of other reasons then, if he has at all loved/liked/promoted the game then it makes no sense to him that other players still appear to be playing Game B. If Player A does not like it then surely other players will all stop for the same reason.

Hence many trips to forums to convince other players that they are wrong. If everyone stops playing then player A's reasons to leave are validated - if only the game company had listened to him and it might be carrying on! On the other hand if the game carries on being a success then Player A's reasons are perhaps more personal and not validated over the player base.

In extreme cases you get forumites who played a previous version of the game when owned by a different company posting frequently about how a game they havent seen sucks and will fail. (see prior to release on this forum). Or the old CCG AEG forums which were poisonous nests.

What makes this extra weird is that it is apparently predicated on Jigoku which is a 3rd party tool , on an evolving card base that still has not settled and finally on expense. As far as I can see (caveat - I appear to suck at the game, in terms of my rating in the discord league I am plummetting to being the possibly worst ranked player in the entire world) the game is not expensive (now the 6 in 6 has finished), it can be played casually amongst friends, it can be played online easily so opponents are easy to find and can be played online cheaply (though please buy the cards and support the game). It can be enjoyed directly or you can watch streams and read the stories and enjoy 'spectating' it - something the old CCG was too early for. Indeed I am enjoying watching better players play more than I do getting my own **** handed to me.

Finally, since I am rambling all over the place, the following article (concerning Street Fighter) is an interesting discussion concerning players perception of skill and power etc. The author also does a great discussion on ELOs but that's more for fanatics like myself.

playing to win

I cannot validate your opinion for you man. You don't like the game, don't play it. What's the point of your piece ?

Sure whiny is for a guy claiming Daigotsu's name. Remember your dark virtues, man up.

Thing is you liked that game so much you burned yourself to disgust, and now it's straight from love to hate. You dug yourself in that hole, you scream from the bottom of that hole, but in truth, seems you ain't looking into getting out of your hole. You either want people to look at you in the hole and feel sad/wrong or want folks to join you in the hole, and validate you were right, and being in the hole makes you better (hipster) .

Do you want to get back? Play live opponents, and stop considering that the first two turns deal the whole game. Fight, keep fighting and fight again, be a samurai, accept fate.

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On 29/12/2017 at 4:32 PM, Tabris2k said:

The problem here is with Jigoku. Too easy to rage quit.

I can’t count the times I’ve been playing against a friend (in person) and I made a play so bad that I have the urge to just quit. But I don’t do it because, well, he’s my friend and he’s right in front of me. We had to arrange the place and time to play. I owe him to end the game. And then, two turns later I’m winning.

With Jigoku you’re playing against a random stranger without little setup, so, in one of those bad play cases, you just decide to rage quit without remorse. And you do it, there’s no consequences, and it becomes an habit.

So my advice is: stop playing Jigoku.

This. Play until the end. If odds seem so bad, it should be quick. You will be surprised how many times you can come back from a bad start. That's my experience.

What he says is also true. I think ppl are very rude in Jigoku. I've had turn 1 concedes just because they hit shameful display. You would not do that to someone in person... Ive taken to writing down the nicknames of people who do this kind of stuff and I will just avoid them. On the other hand I've had very nice games with very polite/civil people and I take their names too and try to test new stuff vs them.

I have only played once or twice on Jigoku, so maybe I don't get where you are coming from but I actually really love the swingyness of the game. In the CCG, one good loss and and it took a miracle to recover. Now a key play can swing the tempo either way multiple times in a single game. I was initially skeptical of the mono-no-aware concept, but it makes the game interesting. You might be facing an overwhelming hoard of characters on turn two and then be the one with your own hoard the next turn. I have had many games where I was sure it was over only to see an odd flip or failure to take the stronghold give the victory to the other player. This might sound strange but I really like that. Predictability is boring to me.

You sound quite passionate about your issues with L5R, honestly it just sounds like you care about it much more than other board/card games. I implore you to focus 100% on learning from your mistakes however minute they might be, instead of reverting to gut-reactions on swingy plays.

You WILL find satisfaction from winning a game that seemed dire due to an early big play against you. L5R isn't a constant dopamine drip like Star Realms, it's a slow rollercoaster of high's and low's and sometimes your opponent deletes part of the upcoming track for free (Policy Debate).

L5R demands temperance, the hot-headed are quickly brushed aside from a lack of mental fortitude.

The only thing that upset me on jigoku are people not respecting the casual tag on game and coming up with super competitive deck when you just want to test a fun little deck.

On 1/2/2018 at 2:41 PM, vilainn6 said:

The only thing that upset me on jigoku are people not respecting the casual tag on game and coming up with super competitive deck when you just want to test a fun little deck.

Competitive vs. casual is more about player mindset than deck build. I expect people to play their best decks in casual, but I also expect a more relaxed attitude. If I mis-click or miss a reaction in casual, I'll ask my opponent to let me take back if they haven't gone yet, and I allow same. In competitive that doesn't fly.