RAPID FIRE
· RED: Each shot beyond the second also costs one fatigue. This is in addition to the dice results.

* It is now a Rank 2 card

* Rationale behind this house rule:

1. This card is broken, especially more so as PC's get additional favorable dice. There needs to be more of a drawback to balance it out.

2. The Greed side allows for one extra attack. I thought about giving additional shots here for a loss of one initiative space each..but then I thought, "WHY WOULDN'T I JUST ALLOW THIS FOR ALL ACTIONS THEN?" I'm going to cut my losses here and cap it. It's already a ridiculous card in comparison to other cards.

3. Adding more difficulty dice does NOT solve this problem, as again, as PC's rank up, they're going to pretty much ignore extra dice. Only by adding STATIC drawbacks creates certainty. Fatigue and stress are the best option.

4. I considered the rule"Max of one extra attack per rank of the PC"

5. It should be a Rank 2 card (if it's not already).

6. ALWAYS having the monsters throw all of their ace dice at the guy with the machine gun is unrealistic and no fun

Other thoughts?

jh

Emirikol said:

Interestingly, this was my knee-jerk reaction to house-ruling this card. I think it is a decent approach and I like the simplicity of it.

The other thing that can be easily overlooked when reading Rapid Fire (and why I'm still on the fence about house-ruling it) is that the card states the follow-up attacks can only be directed at the same target or another target in the same engagement . Keeping this in mind makes the card considerably less broken than it otherwise sounds. If the primary target is dead and there are no others engaged with it, no more attacks are granted and the action ends. A GM can also use this to the advantage of smart enemies. They see the archer peppering a group with concentrated fire and they decide to spread out (disengage with each other) to put a stop to it.

Emirikol said:

Gallow talked about adding recharge token for every shot made. It looks like a good solution. I tried it for Double Strike (recharge 0... add 1 per weapon which hit).

willmanx said:

This is another great idea. I'm not sure which I like better...adding Recharge or adding Fatigue.

Emirikol said:

Pretty similar to my own house rule, which is that any shot after the first costs a maneuver (regardless of stance). That way if the player still has a free maneuver the the second shot is free, otherwise there's the associated 1 fatigue cost.

Lex, I think I got the idea from your post. I like fatigue for it's simplicity..and since the danger-free rangers just sit out of melee and have the free maneuver just sitting around anyways, I thought this was a more direct way to impact the card.

jh

Don't forget that usually only one PC will have it, because the distribution of cards emphasizes diversity, but ANY and ALL monsters and NPCs can have it too.

GravitysAngel said:

That is basically my solution to any time the players seem to catch onto a trick or some unbalancing combination. The NPC's gradually figure it out also. It self balances in that respect.

Kryyst said:

Ain't that the truth. Worse, players whine and ***** and complain if you nerf one thing. Nevermind there are 135 OTHER cards in the book. I can't wait to hear the whinging tonight about this one. Double strike is the next to take the hit. Rapid fire and Double Strike are both fun, but not balanced properly yet. Regarding the latter, I'd added one extra black die..but I may go with the 3 token recharge or auto +1 fatigue instead.. as I feel extra challenge/black dice don't mean crap in the grand scheme of things.

jh

rub your eyes till they start to tear up and tell your players you lost the card for it, and that you are very sorry but they can spend $100 on a new set (only $60 on Amazon!) if they really want rapid fire. then when they buy it you throw a fit, "WFRP is Broken!!! i'm starting a new HERO campaign where everything is point buy!!" and then run out of the room crying, buy your favorite icecream, and watch twilight: new moon alone in your room.

LOL! I love that idea!

I think Multishot should not be a succession of extra opportunities but a tactical choice to act in a limited duration : a character's turn. So it should increases difficulty of every single shot, not progressively. In my suggestion, you may see Conservative remains a 1 opportunity extra shot, though Reckless Rapid Shot is a risky bet to shoot more but with less focus.

Willmanx Rapid Fire Action Card's adjustment :

• Conservative stance : no change. 1 shot, then if succeed, 1 extra immediate shot at +1 challenge dice, no more.
• Reckless stance : increase difficulty of every attack roll by 1 challenge dice per extra shot intended during the turn (max 5 shots = dauting difficulty +4d).

I could just do: Maximum of one additional shot per stance shift (also cancel if missed). So a person 2 over, would only get two extra attacks (that is STILL OUTRAGEOUS compared to all other cards)...

jh

Is this really an issue? Are your players still getting lots of successes after 4 or 5 challenge dice?

Unfortunately, yes and it will only get worse as additional advancement dice get added. Having any one character doing 45 points of damage in one round is simply ridiculous. I only bring up the issue to save the rest of you GM's the heartbreak of "letting one player use it..just once." That card is like Meth.

jh

You could say that the first miss ends the action.

I believe that is the actual rule..but PC's aren't missing..they're just getting 5 attacks. Not only is that broken, it's boring for the other players to sit there and watch one player steal all the action.

Anyways, I ended up letting my one playe keep it (modified)..and I intend to use it to take him out next game session when a monster will have it.

jh

I thought up one more solution: Only use the green side of the card including the recharge (2).

To be fair, I also set the recharge for DOUBLE STRIKE to (2).

jh

I have looked over these cards several times and I just don't see the problem with them. There is no way my players are going to succeed on 4-5 attacks in a row without missing with an additional challenge die added to each attack. Even if they do that once, it's not going to happen every fight.

Honestly, the card is okay in Conservative stance (when they're likely to get a delay on at least one of their max two attacks, which I can use to put recharge tokens on the ability anyway) and in Reckless stance they're going to fatigue themselves unconscious with all those reckless dice if they succeed like you're describing. Either way, as soon as a character fires more than twice in a round his enemies are going to swarm him and tear him to pieces anyway.

I agree with you. I just don't see the dice working out that way that this can work that well that often and without fatiguing themselves out. Then again maybe my dice are broken

ok, i give up. i am going to do a solo combat session just to see for myself what happens with rapid fire in the mix. @emirikol: i am glad you laughed, some folks are just a little too serious. if rapid fire is really that bad i think i am just going to pull it out before the players get a taste for it.

i just want to make sure i understand the card before i get started so I know I am resolving the reckless stance side the same way everyone else is:

1) must have bow or repeating ranged weapon

2) must be disengaged from the target

3) if you hit you may perform this action again against the same target or a new target in the same engagement, must add one challenge die

4) as long as you keep hitting and meeting all other requirements you can do this ad infinitum adding an additional challenge die to the dice pool each time

5) one success = normal damage

6) two successes = +2 dmg

7) two boons = perform a free manuever after this action is completed

8) one bane = one opponent w/n close range who is not engaged with you may engage

If all of this is agreed on then Rapid Fire only stops after the following occurs:

1) the character misses

2) due to the triggering of the bane effect line, a previously valid target is now invalid because you are engaged with it

3)you run out of valid targets cause you have killed them all with your extreme badassery

Now #2 is the tricky one because it seems that if there is another valid target available you can still keep shooting, you just can't shoot the guy who has engaged you. I think this requires an example to think through:

What if you start shooting from close range at an engagement with four orcs and you trigger the bane line on your first shot? The first orc you shoot at, if he survives, closes to engage. He is no longer a valid target. However, his comrades in the previous engagement are also no longer valid because when you start performing the action again they aren't in your original target's engagement anymore. Rapid Fire stops.

What if you shoot one orc w/o killing him and shoot another orc in the same engagement and then trigger the bane line? i think the same thing happens there is no "memory" of previous targets. only the last target matters. all requirements are based on the situation as it is when the card starts resolving again. effectively, triggering the bane line at close range always ends rapid fire. is this how everyone else is resolving this? am I missing something? in any case, if you start shooting from long range it does not matter much. which is what i am assuming is going on.

also, how is fatigue not knocking people out or at least screwing their chance to hit? on an earlier thread someone was claiming that they were rolling so many boons and then using them to recover fatigue it never came up, but I find it hard to believe that if you are rolling a fistful of reckless stance dice and challenge dice that fatigue is not becoming an issue quick. please, don't anyone bore me with crazy statistics. i don't care what dice-roller you use or how clever you are. likely, very likely, very unlikely, and unlikely are sufficient for me.

Bindlespin said:

Most archers are shooting from long / medium range, where the bane line is rendered useless. You are free as GM to add your own bane effects, but as written, the card is unstoppable due to banes from anything greater than close range.

In one of the cases presented the Elven character had a Gambler career, which has a career talent that restores fatigue on a boon result. This is what mitigated the accumulation of fatigue. The specifics of the case aren't really that important, what's important is that fatigue in and of itself isn't an immediate show stopper and there are means of counteracting it. So expect players to find them and apply them effectively in combat.

My house rule is to add one extra recharge token for each extra shot and the maximum number of shots is three. That's in line with other cards and there is no good reason to allow more shots anyway.

ok, since no one has objected to my understanding of the rules I went ahead and ran a solo combat encounter. in short, it was a slaughter. i recorded it in detail with a little narrative so that it is not so dry.

Rapid Fire Play-test; or, Death of a Man-goat
Trial One: Talos vs. Terry, the Man-goat
Scenario: Talos, a green Waywatcher recruit, has been traveling under the cover of night through the forest to deliver a message to an Asrai agent in Ubersreik. Trading stealth for speed, Talos stumbles onto a lone Gor enjoying a midnight snack. Combat begins at medium range.
Prediction: The Gor is about to become fillet mignon.
Determine Initiative
Talos has a 5 Ag and will gain 3 fortune dice, one for Nature Bond and two for the Waywatcher class ability. He will also use a fortune point to add one more die. Starting in neutral stance the dice pool is five characteristic dice and four fortune dice. The Gor has a 4 Ag. Gors also have the special ability “Ambush” which adds an expertise die to initiative checks. His stance is always R1 and he will add the maximum of two fortune dice from his Cunning pool. His dice pool is three characteristic dice, one reckless, one expertise, and two fortune dice.
Result: The Waywatcher rolls three successes and the Gor rolls one. Fortune favors the Waywatcher.
Combat Begins
Round One
Talos
Angry with himself for being so careless, Talos is in a rage. Adjusting his stance to R1, Talos uses his free maneuver to draw his longbow and unloads with Rapid Fire to cleanse the forest of this abomination. “God of the Hunt, bless my bow.”
Dice pool: four characteristic dice, one reckless, one expertise (trained in BS), spends his remaining two fortune points to add two fortune dice, one challenge die (range attack), and one misfortune die (Gors have 1 Def)
Result: Four successes, one bane, one boon, and one Chaos star; effectively, four successes and one bane. Talos triggers two extra damage. Longbows are DR 5; pierce one. Damage potential is 12. The Gor is Soak 2 w/ 5 To reduced by one from pierce. Final damage = 6.
A lone wolf howls in the distance. With incomparable skill, Talos draws another arrow and attacks again before the first arrow even reaches its target. Talos removes two fortune dice, adds one challenge die to his dice pool, and rolls again.
Result: 3 successes, one boon, one bane, two chaos stars; 3 successes, two banes. Talos triggers 2 bonus damage again, and GM rules that banes will be converted to 1 fatigue. Terry will take six more damage.
Both arrows strike home as one burying themselves deep in poor Terry’s lonely heart. Terry had worked so hard to establish dominance in his herd only to be used, betrayed, and finally abandoned by his fellow Gors. Talos listens to the Gor’s final grumble, “I coulda been a contender, I coulda been somebody…” With three vicious strikes using the hilt of the hunter’s blade retrieved from his boot sheath, Talos cracks the mutant’s ribs, separating them from their sternum, and pries Terry’s heart from its misshapen cavity. Later the heart will be burned so that its taint can no longer threaten the forest, but for now Talos must continue his silent journey, just another shadow in the gathering darkness.

Not terribly surprised. Someone with those stats has a 52% chance of making 3 or more shots with Rapid Shot. In other words, you're looking at a 52% chance of 30-36 dmg from that PC.

The probabilities are quite deadly: 92.44% chance of hitting once. 75.02% chance of hitting twice. 50.76% chance of hitting three times. And 27.72% chance of hitting four times!

The 1 Def brings those down to 90.90%, 72.57%, 48.55% and 29.32% respectively, making defense terribly useless.