21 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Older models wouldn't make any sense.

Not even the resistance, so chronically underfunded that they don't even have any spare gas money, is tooling around with 40 year old ships. Why would anybody have holograms of older stuff like that laying around? And clearly not holograms of old stuff, those were clearly more up to date pictures since the Xwing hologram was a T70.

This might have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the T-70 was roughly 20 years old by the time of The Last Jedi.

It had already been replaced at least once by a newer model of X-Wing - we know the Republic had T-85s in service, but there may have been a T-80 in between the two.

4 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

I didn't think that an SW movie needed politics after seeing the prequels, but that would have been more interesting to see in the movie than the gambler planet.

Canto Bight was political. As, indeed, was everything the First Order and the Resistance are doing.

Warfare divorced from context is just murder.

15 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

This might have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the T-70 was roughly 20 years old by the time of The Last Jedi.

29 if you include the prototype in the Aftermath books.

32 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

This might have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the T-70 was roughly 20 years old by the time of The Last Jedi.

It had already been replaced at least once by a newer model of X-Wing - we know the Republic had T-85s in service, but there may have been a T-80 in between the two.

TIE Fighters were probably pushing 20 years old by the time of RotJ, being replaced by Squints. And now Squints canonically exist before ANH, and TIE prototypes existed during the clone wars maybe? Anyway, all the ships are old as crap in the holo-portfolio in TLJ, but old junk always sells to parties that have even older junk.

I'll have to double-check, but I think in Rebels we see Squints with missile pods?

18 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I'll have to double-check, but I think in Rebels we see Squints with missile pods?

23 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I'll have to double-check, but I think in Rebels we see Squints with missile pods?

We don't, and the image below is from a render of a craft from X-Wing Alliance.

9 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

We don't, and the image below is from a render of a craft from X-Wing Alliance.

We do see Defender Elites with missiles though - and those missiles are fired from between the guns, on the wing vanes, and Defenders have a rectangular slot to fire the missiles from, that looks a lot like the same rectangular space that is on Interceptors.

Hence there's a theory that this is a "hardpoint" on all 3 "craft with vanes" that can be upgraded to take missiles, with the Defender Elite receiving the upgrade, but the other two being upgradable.

20 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

We do see Defender Elites with missiles though - and those missiles are fired from between the guns, on the wing vanes, and Defenders have a rectangular slot to fire the missiles from, that looks a lot like the same rectangular space that is on Interceptors.

Hence there's a theory that this is a "hardpoint" on all 3 "craft with vanes" that can be upgraded to take missiles, with the Defender Elite receiving the upgrade, but the other two being upgradable.

That is indeed my theory and hope.

Once again, I think we need canon upgrades for a good number of ships.

I’m confused what people are arguing now.

why haven’t we seen FO interceptors? Maybe it is still in development. Same with the bombers. Or maybe they were trying to say they made ships for the empire.

ignoring the political tone and all that, I’m actually really dissapointed what that seen does with the galaxy. CLEARLY the Ties were all similar enough to be made by the same company but now that company also makes the X-Wing? I would have sued them for ripping off my design if I developed the T-65.

what happened to Corelia? Or other ship developers? The casino seen just made the galaxy seem really really small.

Even on one planet, Earth has Boeing and Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman all making aircraft. That’s just the American side! Don’t forget the Su developers plus the Chinese development teams and the European groups as well.

just makes the galaxy seem small is all. Still worth it to see that awesome throne room scene lol

9 minutes ago, Mackaywarrior said:

ignoring the political tone and all that, I’m actually really dissapointed what that seen does with the galaxy. CLEARLY the Ties were all similar enough to be made by the same company but now that company also makes the X-Wing?

Tie-in (pun not intended) material tells us what company makes what. Frei-Tek (Incom spin off) made the T-70. Sienar-Jaemus (Sienar successor) makes the TIE/fo.

1 minute ago, Ironlord said:

Tie-in (pun not intended) material tells us what company makes what. Frei-Tek (Incom spin off) made the T-70. Sienar-Jaemus (Sienar successor) makes the TIE/fo.

And suddenly the galaxy is a lot larger lol

So were they all on the same planet or something? Now I want to know more about the ship that DJ borrowed.

46 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

We do see Defender Elites with missiles though - and those missiles are fired from between the guns, on the wing vanes, and Defenders have a rectangular slot to fire the missiles from, that looks a lot like the same rectangular space that is on Interceptors.

Hence there's a theory that this is a "hardpoint" on all 3 "craft with vanes" that can be upgraded to take missiles, with the Defender Elite receiving the upgrade, but the other two being upgradable.

You do not have to tell me that. I know, believe me. I was the one pointing out that Vult Skerris' TIE Defender in the X-Wing episode was an Elite variant based on not only its elongated wings and its reactor slot, but also its missile sockets.

So I didn't say these kinds of things are impossible, quite the opposite.

I was saying that the picture there, was not from Rebels, and that TIE Interceptors thus far have not used missiles in Rebels, thus the claim that they have is erroneous at best.

5 minutes ago, Mackaywarrior said:

So were they all on the same planet or something? Now I want to know more about the ship that DJ borrowed.

Canto Bight is more "where the various arms dealers meet to conclude their deals" - not "where all the arms dealers come from".

ICS:TLJ goes into more detail on DJ's ship, its current owner, and its first owner.

2 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

Canto Bight is more "where the various arms dealers meet to conclude their deals" - not "where all the arms dealers come from".

ICS:TLJ goes into more detail on DJ's ship, its current owner, and its first owner.

Interesting. Now I want a book all about the defense industry of the Star Wars galaxy lol.

2 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

This might have been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but the T-70 was roughly 20 years old by the time of The Last Jedi.

It had already been replaced at least once by a newer model of X-Wing - we know the Republic had T-85s in service, but there may have been a T-80 in between the two.

It could be the First Order still builds Interceptors and Bombers for their more second line forces (garrisons and such, which might not need the top of the line TIE/fo and TIE/sf models), and the arms dealer is selling off their surplus production, or ones they're retiring in favor of the /fo and /sf designs as production catches up. a lot of ex-imperial/FO aligned forces would probably find the Interceptors and bombers a good choice.. compatible with the ex-imperial stuff left over from the GCW which a lot of them would be reliant on already, and definitely an improvement over the old common-as-hydrogen TIE/ln's.

On 12/29/2017 at 5:15 PM, BadMotivator said:

Older models wouldn't make any sense.

Not even the resistance, so chronically underfunded that they don't even have any spare gas money, is tooling around with 40 year old ships. Why would anybody have holograms of older stuff like that laying around? And clearly not holograms of old stuff, those were clearly more up to date pictures since the Xwing hologram was a T70.

actually the Resistance's T-70's date from 35 years earlier. as does the Raddus. their SF-17 bombers date back to the end of the clone wars almost 60 years earlier. their support Frigates date back to the GCW 40 years earlier. the only "new" craft they have are the Resistance Transport (only on a technicality, as all the parts are 40 to 60+ years old, used to create a 'new' ship design), and the RZ-2 A-wing, which doesn't have a timeframe specified yet beyond 'sometime after the GCW", and the resistance ones are said to be "decades old" meaning minimum 20 years.

so yeah.. none of the Resistance stuff is new or top of the line. they are doing the equivalent of taking F-4 Phantoms's and F-5 Freedom Fighters up against the latest Mig-35's and Su-37's.

41 minutes ago, Mackaywarrior said:

I’m confused what people are arguing now.

why haven’t we seen FO interceptors? Maybe it is still in development. Same with the bombers. Or maybe they were trying to say they made ships for the empire.

ignoring the political tone and all that, I’m actually really dissapointed what that seen does with the galaxy. CLEARLY the Ties were all similar enough to be made by the same company but now that company also makes the X-Wing? I would have sued them for ripping off my design if I developed the T-65.

what happened to Corelia? Or other ship developers? The casino seen just made the galaxy seem really really small.

Even on one planet, Earth has Boeing and Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman all making aircraft. That’s just the American side! Don’t forget the Su developers plus the Chinese development teams and the European groups as well.

just makes the galaxy seem small is all. Still worth it to see that awesome throne room scene lol

I am reading this that you are a little confused. The way I see it, is not that the person who Finn, Rose, and DJ stole the ship works for a company that produces both TIEs and X-wings, but for someone who sells either ships, or munitions to both sides. If the latter, the holograms could just be schematics used for figuring out ordnance for ordering, if the former, it is clearly war profiteering - said individual was probably selling decommissioned t-70s to the resistance from someone in the New Republic and perhaps Sienar-Jaemus manufactures TIEs illegally and covertly, selling to the First Order through a middle person?

Also, there are weapons on earth that are easily reproduced, like the AK-47, by several different factions/companies. Perhaps, the incom/Frie-Tek and Sienar-Jaemus just build and design prototypes and sell the plans off to various factories?

33 minutes ago, mithril2098 said:

actually the Resistance's T-70's date from 35 years earlier. as does the Raddus. their SF-17 bombers date back to the end of the clone wars almost 60 years earlier. their support Frigates date back to the GCW 40 years earlier.

29 years earlier for the T-70 and the Raddus (T-70 prototype at Battle of Jakku, Raddus, right before Jakku:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-70_X-wing_fighter

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddus_(MC85_Star_Cruiser)

SF-17 was also "last days of Galactic Civil War" not "last days of Clone War".

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MG-100_StarFortress_SF-17

5 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Perhaps, the incom/Frie-Tek and Sienar-Jaemus just build and design prototypes and sell the plans off to various factories?

From what I can tell, design is difficult, but manufacture is _really freaking easy_ within the Star Wars universe.

6 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I am reading this that you are a little confused. The way I see it, is not that the person who Finn, Rose, and DJ stole the ship works for a company that produces both TIEs and X-wings, but for someone who sells either ships, or munitions to both sides. If the latter, the holograms could just be schematics used for figuring out ordnance for ordering, if the former, it is clearly war profiteering - said individual was probably selling decommissioned t-70s to the resistance from someone in the New Republic and perhaps Sienar-Jaemus manufactures TIEs illegally and covertly, selling to the First Order through a middle person?

Also, there are weapons on earth that are easily reproduced, like the AK-47, by several different factions/companies. Perhaps, the incom/Frie-Tek and Sienar-Jaemus just build and design prototypes and sell the plans off to various factories?

Perhaps but if aircraft are like star fighters then they shouldn’t be all that easy to replicate. Every company or group seems to have their own unique design features (though some more subtle than others). Then again, with a large enough galaxy it can’t be that hard to reverse engineer an X-Wing.

I like your theory about the modified off-market dealership it could have been. I think I was missing the point more because as someone pointed out, that was just the planet they made the deals on. My initial assumption was that the planet was THE defense industry of the galaxy and was selling to both sides.

2 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

From what I can tell, design is difficult, but manufacture is _really freaking easy_ within the Star Wars universe.

Pretty much. slave labour, automation or all-up droid factories can churn stuff out in bulk incredibly cheaply, and it's not like the empire had an especially strong attachment to the concept of 'worker's rights'...

Best example - the canonical price for a TIE fighter, new build, was 60,000 credits. Yes, it's not a great starfighter, but it's space-and-atmosphere capable, and a dangerous enough ship in the right hands.

Credits in star wars are not a million miles from pounds, dollars and euros today - a 'used car' changing hands for 2,000 credits, and something resembling a 'burger meal' (in dex's diner) for 6 credits.

The idea of getting a military-grade fighter for the price of a high-end sports car at around $60,000 (even give or take a small multiplier) is kind of mind-boggling, when compared to the ~ $100,000,000 of new build F-15.

Plus, economies of scale are an unimaginable thing when you sell to a galaxy...

The F-15 Strike Eagle production run has so far churned out about 1600 planes.

The Imperial Navy had 25,000 star destroyers, each with 72 TIE fighters (I'm ignoring bomber, interceptor, etc and at the same time ignoring any TIE fighters not stationed on a capital ship), for a total of 1.8 million.

• A good cost curve rule of thumb is C=(1/X x A), where C is the cost, X is the number you build and A is a multiplier.
• If you look at 1,600 items at 100,000,000 each, A is about 1.6x10^11
• If you look at 1,800,000 items at 60,000 each, A is about 1.08x10^11
• given that there's a 1-2 times 'slip factor' between a credit and a dollar, that's pretty close....

Well, Star Wars space ships of all kinds are sold at realistic market values. Not the heavily inflated prices that modern military hardware gets sold for. Countries today get ripped off by arms manufacturers in a huge way. If an F-15 was sold at a similar markup as civilian vehicles it would be much cheaper. Same with tanks and other armored vehicles. They could be far far far cheaper than they are currently sold for.

44 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Well, Star Wars space ships of all kinds are sold at realistic market values. Not the heavily inflated prices that modern military hardware gets sold for. Countries today get ripped off by arms manufacturers in a huge way. If an F-15 was sold at a similar markup as civilian vehicles it would be much cheaper. Same with tanks and other armored vehicles. They could be far far far cheaper than they are currently sold for.

Ehhhh, I would not go that far. Generally the prices for aircraft are considered reasonable and as time goes on the unit cost for an aircraft drops. Where countries get SLAMMED is during the Research and Development phase. If a project goes on too long you can really start feeling the pain in your wallet.

Oh, and maintenance, sometimes maintaining the aircraft itself is costly.

And spare parts you can't just wait till something breaks in war you need a good stockpile so you can get it back into the fight.

On 30.12.2017 at 0:15 AM, BadMotivator said:

Older models wouldn't make any sense.

Not even the resistance, so chronically underfunded that they don't even have any spare gas money, is tooling around with 40 year old ships. Why would anybody have holograms of older stuff like that laying around? And clearly not holograms of old stuff, those were clearly more up to date pictures since the Xwing hologram was a T70.

And yet, Iden and Zay Versio are flying around in T-65s minutes before Starkiller blows apart the NR. We are in dire need of context for the First Order era.