I'm a first time GM who just wrapped up my first session; we ended after Encounter 4 of the Beginner Game.

One key issue I was having was with my Ataru Striker PC who would like to flip, scramble over tables, etc while maneuvering between range bands. For example in the cantina the PC wanted to move from short to engaged but at the same time going over tables and flipping into an attack. In another instances they asked to knock an enemy prone and maneuver into cover by flipping over a desk.

Rules as written state that a maneuver is something in which the PC cannot reasonably fail or in which the failure would be inconsequential. There's more risk in flipping that walking/rushing which makes it an action. At the time I was willing to give him the maneuver with the consequence that opponents would have advantage with no cover, later ruled it to no cover. He was not happy. I realize now that it would've been two maneuvers but w/e.

He would like his maneuvers to all have the flair of Ataru styling with no benefits/negatives due to the nature of the form. I'm thinking there's a chance he could fail and it would be an action. If that's the case he's changing character because he interpreted it wrong.

Thoughts?

TL;DR: A character would like to RP their maneuvers to include acrobatic movements with no benefit due to being an Ataru Striker, allow it?

Unless there is a compelling reason to make them fail in the acrobatics, dont make them fail. What you describe in this case is simply special effects.

Even though a maneuver can't be a check usually; there might be some circumstances where a check can be preformed as an action or a maneuver if there is a big narrative pay off for it; for example crossing a tight rope across a short range gap would be the typical exception. Basically, a high risk, high reward maneuver might warrant being rolled as a check.

This doesn't sound like that however, as it's being used as narrative dressing however then it's fine because this is the kind of thing a character has spent a lifetime to perfect . Why doesn't Maul cut himself with his saber staff? Because he's trained extensively with it. Likewise Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were keen practitioners who stumbled because of situation, not because of their own imcopendance. So given the guy is an Ataru Striker who vaults around for the cinematic cool factor; sure. The only time I would roll a check is if the acrobatics is being used to achieve something one can't usually do, such as vault onto a higher ledge (which is probably covered by hawk-bat swoop)

He is just moving around, as long as it isn't letting him do anything you couldn't do normally in the one minute a round normally lasts. If he is wanting to achieve things that hamper or distract his foes with it, then he can spend advantages as normal and narrate the way his acrobatics are causing those effects.

14 hours ago, beesk said:

For example in the cantina the PC wanted to move from short to engaged but at the same time going over tables and flipping into an attack.

Let him narrate to his heart's content. However, if all those tables comprise "difficult terrain", he doesn't get a free pass, it still costs an extra maneuver.

14 hours ago, beesk said:

In another instances they asked to knock an enemy prone and maneuver into cover by flipping over a desk.

Knocking an enemy prone requires an attack. Normally you either need to make a Brawling attack and use 2A to get knockdown, or need the "Knockdown" Talent to do it with melee weapons, but you still need a Triumph. He can't just knock people around (and gain the tactical benefits) for free. It's your call of course if he perhaps made an Acrobatics check in place of an attack (converting his Action to a Maneuver), and you let him spend a fistful of Advantages or Triumph to do the knockdown...but if somebody else in the party had to spend 15XP on the Knockdown talent they might feel cheated.

3 hours ago, whafrog said:

Knocking an enemy prone requires an attack. Normally you either need to make a Brawling attack and use 2A to get knockdown, or need the "Knockdown" Talent to do it with melee weapons, but you still need a Triumph. He can't just knock people around (and gain the tactical benefits) for free. It's your call of course if he perhaps made an Acrobatics check in place of an attack (converting his Action to a Maneuver), and you let him spend a fistful of Advantages or Triumph to do the knockdown...but if somebody else in the party had to spend 15XP on the Knockdown talent they might feel cheated.

Yea this was a mistake I made and I've changed it going forward. I realized it earlier today when going over the rules again.

Thank you to everyone here for helping me out, it made things a lot clearer. I've talked with him and let him know he can narrate a basic maneuver in such a way unless there is a distinct advantage in which case it's a roll.

One thing to clarify, however, is that those tables and such are obstacles , which will slow him down by increasing the number of maneuvers he needs to move a given distance, unless he has the Freerunning talent.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

One thing to clarify, however, is that those tables and such are obstacles , which will slow him down by increasing the number of maneuvers he needs to move a given distance, unless he has the Freerunning talent.

Where is the free running talent?

Since we were running the beginner game it doesn't specify that as difficult terrain. I did not designate it at the start so it would not qualify at the time but I might for future encounters.

Unless I'm mistaken, the free running talent is in the Racer specialization in Endless Vigil.

It depends whether there is anything that you would define as difficult terrain. Usually it's fairly obvious whether it is or isn't.

Difficult terrain for me would either consist of overly complicated or cluttered area, a surface that is extra slippy and so fourth. It's fine to have some scenery, but the majority of the space must either be clear or otherwise intrusive (e.g. an area consisting of a few low ledges aren't difficult terrian, but a staircase would be if they were fighting/been shot at there.)

Also, Free Running isn't it; that just allows you to move a range band, without moving. It's something within most survival specialisations that allows one to effectively pass without a trace.

3 hours ago, LordBritish said:

It depends whether there is anything that you would define as difficult terrain. Usually it's fairly obvious whether it is or isn't.

Difficult terrain for me would either consist of overly complicated or cluttered area, a surface that is extra slippy and so fourth. It's fine to have some scenery, but the majority of the space must either be clear or otherwise intrusive (e.g. an area consisting of a few low ledges aren't difficult terrian, but a staircase would be if they were fighting/been shot at there.)

Also, Free Running isn't it; that just allows you to move a range band, without moving. It's something within most survival specialisations that allows one to effectively pass without a trace.

Good to know. I'll plan on working that in down the road as I improve my GM skills.

IIRC our house rule (could actually be RaW but I'm AFB) was first maneuver free i.e run for cover while firing, then each maneuver after the first was a setback die. so...in our cliched/inevitable shoot out in the Mos Eisley Cantina my PC did the following:

jumped over the table (the alcove that Han met Luke & Ben in of course) firing his pistol - free

ran towards the bar, jumped over it, still firing his pistol - 1 setback die,

looked for some Corellian brandy and swigging back said brandy while pooping his head back up exposing him to enemy fire- 1 setback die.... or something like that

If I failed depending on the number of Failures, I even suggested that the table collapses before I even start running, drastic failure would have been I get behind the bar but I knock my kneecap out or twist my back etc..

...Much better game system than "PFRPG/Feat Tax To Do Something Cool In Combat/d20 system"

I digress... Quote: He would like his maneuvers to all have the flair of Ataru styling with no benefits/negatives due to the nature of the form. I'm thinking there's a chance he could fail and it would be an action. If that's the case he's changing character because he interpreted it wrong. A starting PC should not be able to do whatever they like without a chance of failure.. this is a RPG not a film... there has to be a chance it goes pear shaped (like losing a hand during a Lightsaber Duel)

19 hours ago, beesk said:

Where is the free running talent?

Since we were running the beginner game it doesn't specify that as difficult terrain. I did not designate it at the start so it would not qualify at the time but I might for future encounters.

19 hours ago, JorArns said:

Unless I'm mistaken, the free running talent is in the Racer specialization in Endless Vigil.

@JorArns is correct. Freerunning, Improved Freerunning, and Supreme Freerunning are all included in the Racer Spec in Endless Vigil. They basically allow you to perform Parkour leaps and flips over obstacles, off of walls, etc, using them to travel over instead of being slowed down by them.

On 28.12.2017 at 8:56 PM, whafrog said:

Let him narrate to his heart's content. However, if all those tables comprise "difficult terrain", he doesn't get a free pass, it still costs an extra maneuver.

Jap.
Though impassable terrain would require to a check, which may cost him an action, but allows for spending advantages in interesting ways AND may yield larger positional advantages to make it worthwhile.
The idea behind the game is that a GM can create the scenes which allow his characters to shine. So having more of that kind of terrain sounds cool. Getting up into impossible places for cover or even fully out of side until the enemy spend their own maneuvers to getting in. etc

Or you know, just introduce assisting yourself with appropriate skills, like making an brawl attack enhanced with coordination to get a boost or two for the maneuver spend. It does not need to be always just the boring aim maneuver.
I always miss my ubiquity skill synergies, which could work in SW just fine when you allow to add one boost dice per rank 4 skill which can be used to enhance the actual skill check. (capped at 4 dice in ubiquity, in SW I would require a maneuver and thus make it analog to aim/assist). So for example moving from a to b cost 1 maneuver, wanting to use coordination while doing it ataru style grants you one boost dice for your ataru attack OR 1 defense based on your acrobatic movement, similar to how cover works. Requirement to use this is having coordination skill at rank 4.

You get the cinematic experience, you get some use out of those mostly fluff skills and you get character specific fluff and style into their combat as well. Alas, this would be a house rule. If you don't want house rules, I recommend the racer spec, because this goes hand in hand with this kind of movement, because all the parkour talents are in that talent tree °_^

On 12/27/2017 at 9:39 PM, beesk said:

TL;DR: A character would like to RP their maneuvers to include acrobatic movements with no benefit due to being an Ataru Striker, allow it?

If there's no mechanical benefit (e.g. adding dice to a pool or increasing some stat) then I'd allow it without a roll. If there's a chance that it could have Interesting Results™ then the dice come out. It is certainly feasible to have the check be Simple so that the player is rolling dice and looking cool (no difficulty means they succeed, but the dice determine just how well) but failure isn't a real failure. I always like it when players bring that sort of fluff to the story rather than making me describe it all.

You are correct that any Skill Check requires an Action, not a Maneuver.

Looking cool should never require a roll. "I slide across the table, then leap, flipping and rolling up to strike at the Bounty Hunter with my lightsaber!" is the exact same thing as, "I'll spend my maneuver to go from Short to Engaged, then make a Lightsaber attack." It's just better, and it gives suggestions right away on how to spend Advantage and Threat. Lots of Advantage? Maybe you flipped right over the guy and came at an unexpected angle, so he has Setback to hit you, as do the other mooks in the battle. Rolled some Threat? Maybe you landed harder than you meant to and suffered some Strain. Maybe as you landed, the guy kicked you away into the wall, and now everyone has a clear shot at you. Don't penalize a player for flair, because you want flair!

Now, if he's not even taking an action, maybe he could make a Coordination or Athletics check to increase the difficulty to hit him. Sliding behind cover, leaping off of bad guys, that kind of thing. Success can increase difficulty by one, then throw in even more Setback for Advantage. A Shien Expert pulling this trick could get nice and close to his enemies while reducing the cost of Reflect (because Supreme), and the shots that do hit are much more likely to have enough Threat to trigger Improved Reflect.

10 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Looking cool should never require a roll. "I slide across the table, then leap, flipping and rolling up to strike at the Bounty Hunter with my lightsaber!" is the exact same thing as, "I'll spend my maneuver to go from Short to Engaged, then make a Lightsaber attack." It's just better. Don't penalize a player for flair, because you want flair!

This is one of the things I've loved about 7th Seas since 1st edition and which carries over into 2nd edition, where the player can be awarded one or more bonus dice to their roll for giving a cool description of how it is they do what they're doing, and with movement generally being handled as a descriptive thing. The game very much encourages the players to have their characters look and act cool in any scene they're in. I've played a few different type of swordsmen (from Zorro-clones to pirate swashbucklers to Highlands warrior-poet swinging a blade taller than most men) in that system, and I can count the number of systems in which I've had similarly awesome sword fights on a single hand, and most of those were extraordinary circumstances (such as going one-on-one with Darth Krayt in a Legacy Era game in WotC's Saga Edition)