12 hours ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Different strokes for different folks I guess. I’d almost always rather have interceptors that can throw 6 blues with a reroll, and then some dedicated bombers on the side to bomb ships. Then again I rarely take max squads and am frequently going squadronless or 4 ties so I’m by no means an expert on the subject.

the only time I’ve enjoyed a phantom is when I took the unkillable Whisper

Which dedicated bombers are you planning to take? The TIE Bomber is worse at bombing ships than Phantoms are with Sloane. The TIE Defender is likewise worse than Phantoms. The Firespray does more damage per shot, but they don't benefit from Sloane (they are Rogue).

For reference...

A 4-ship strike of Phantoms against a ship...Average result: 5 damage and 1 accuracy to spend a token.

A 4-ships strike of TIE Bombers against a ship...Average result: 4 damage and 0 accuracies.

A 4-ship strike of TIE Defenders against a ship...Average result: 3 damage and 1 accuracy to spend a token.

A 4-ship strike of Firesprays against a ship...Average result: 6 damage (and accuracy doesn't spend a token).

The only bomber that outshines the Phantom with Sloane is the Firespray, and if you're taking a bunch of Firesprays, Sloane is probably not the best choice for your commander. Phantoms are Sloane's bombers.

4 hours ago, RobertK said:

Which dedicated bombers are you planning to take? The TIE Bomber is worse at bombing ships than Phantoms are with Sloane. The TIE Defender is likewise worse than Phantoms. The Firespray does more damage per shot, but they don't benefit from Sloane (they are Rogue).

For reference...

A 4-ship strike of Phantoms against a ship...Average result: 5 damage and 1 accuracy to spend a token.

A 4-ships strike of TIE Bombers against a ship...Average result: 4 damage and 0 accuracies.

A 4-ship strike of TIE Defenders against a ship...Average result: 3 damage and 1 accuracy to spend a token.

A 4-ship strike of Firesprays against a ship...Average result: 6 damage (and accuracy doesn't spend a token).

The only bomber that outshines the Phantom with Sloane is the Firespray, and if you're taking a bunch of Firesprays, Sloane is probably not the best choice for your commander. Phantoms are Sloane's bombers.

While I agree that in hypothetical land phantoms may be better, upthread I described how that never really pans out for me IRL when I’ve tried them.

Plus I have yet to even try Sloane- though I was tracking accuracies/crits tolled (there were very few) to see if it would have made a difference

On 26/12/2017 at 11:13 PM, xanderf said:

Basically looked at what the standard X-Wing did to become Rogue Squadron, and reversed that on the Firespray-31. IE., that switched 'Escort' out for 'Rogue' and added 1 pt. "Undo that" on the Firespray, and you get this:

Dunno 'bout you guys, but...I'd take that!

Uniqueness matter.

On 27/12/2017 at 0:44 AM, Snipafist said:

2 blue bomber AND Escort is too good. Just spam the bejesus out of them with a Jumpmaster or two that they guard all by themselves and you just keep hitting ships until they're all gone (...if that ever happens). Even better with Sloane.

So I can't say I'm a fan.

Xwings + Norra + Jan Ors is not good enough

On 27/12/2017 at 0:55 AM, xanderf said:

That's not how that conversion would go. If switching 'Escort' to 'Rogue' costs one point and adding unique is a penalty (IE., reduces cost on the fighter vs an identical generic), then switching 'Escort' to 'Rogue' would have to cost more than one point added. So reversing that would save move points.

IE., say adding 'unique' is a 2 pt discount vs a generic version (it's not, but for sake of argument to show the problem). So the X-Wing -> Rogue Squadron being only one point apart, accounting for a 2pt discount for being unique, would mean that the generic version of 'Rogue Squadron' should be 16 pts instead of 14. IE., Escort -> Rogue being +3 pts -2pts for unique = +1 net (which is what we are working with). If Escort -> Rogue is +3 pts, then taking that Firespray and -3pts on it = yes, please!

(FWIW, tossing the stats of the fighters into a spreadsheet and grinding through it a bit, I don't think unique on its own has any impact on pricing at all. Defense tokens do, but 'unique' does not.)

Uniqueness matters in the price. But I think is more a way to rebalance things when it is important.

It is there for lore reasons of course but it is to limit powerful skills also. I mean, Maarek clearly worth his price. We usually take Jendon as a cheaper Maarek. I noticed that some characters get their skills for free and uniqueness has something to do there. Also unique squadrons are priced lower than they should. But all things must be priced attending things around.

I agree rogue>escort and regular>uniqueness. So if rogue+uniqueness>escort+regular firesprays have lot to win from that change and worth that cost but only in a vacuum. Sloane exists. If Firesprays would be that way I would bet ffg would go with her swarm version.

TL;DR

I agree: the cost of that thing is definitely 16 as far as I see the cost ratings. I had a thread somewhere about that.

I disagree: that would be definitely broken given what already exists. 7 of those + Dengar + Sloane?? What else you need?

Btw if we agree about that logic being possible thus subject is stupid. Who cares about firesprays?

Decimators!!!

Rogue-->escort at -1 (following rogue squadron)

Counter 1-->bomber at +1 (following green squadron)

3 blue bomber dice with Sloane and 8 hull escorts.

Even without bomber it would be nasty... and cheaper.

3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Btw if we agree about that logic being possible thus subject is stupid. Who cares about firesprays?

Decimators!!!

Rogue-->escort at -1 (following rogue squadron)

Counter 1-->bomber at +1 (following green squadron)

3 blue bomber dice with Sloane and 8 hull escorts.

Even without bomber it would be nasty... and cheaper.

A 'heavy' 'escort', though, eh? Hah, amusing. More hull than needed, though, far more anti-ship than needed, and bonkers too expensive.

FWIW, I think that last version knocked out makes the most sense as a way to represent the gunboat as it is in X-Wing while providing a useful new ability for Armada...

31 minutes ago, xanderf said:

A 'heavy' 'escort', though, eh? Hah, amusing. More hull than needed, though, far more anti-ship than needed, and bonkers too expensive.

FWIW, I think that last version knocked out makes the most sense as a way to represent the gunboat as it is in X-Wing while providing a useful new ability for Armada...

Heavy is not a problem as long as I hit harder than anything else. What are you going to do with that advantage? Run away? I am fine with it I am hitting your ships.

8 hull bombers that are also escort are more than needed? It allows escorts at the same time they are standing against the heaviest anti squadron fire from those ships they are blowing up.

More antiship than needed? I don't even know what that means.

Also I think that last squadron would be 15 points but I won't fight one point about an hypothetical squadron. I didn't approach combination of stats and keywords like escort-counter-hull but given the current yt-1300 it seems expensive to me. Tax cost due to Sloane uses? It could be.

Actually I like it but it is true that I will like any other escort source for imperials.

On 12/26/2017 at 2:13 PM, xanderf said:

Basically looked at what the standard X-Wing did to become Rogue Squadron, and reversed that on the Firespray-31. IE., that switched 'Escort' out for 'Rogue' and added 1 pt. "Undo that" on the Firespray, and you get this:

Dunno 'bout you guys, but...I'd take that!

I still think the original is the best.

Counter is too strong on this.

a Non-bomber rogue. With blue dice. Sloane doesn't help with the bomber dice here much anyway. I like this.

Has anyone tested it to see if its too powerful or not?

16 or 17 points????

Also, who can come up with an ace? Maarek? Vynder? Karsabi?

12 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

7 of those + Dengar + Sloane?? What else you need?

Of course, that was sort of the design intent of the gunboat in the first place, wasn't it? It was intended to be used as a 'jack of all trades' sort of who-knows-what-I'm-facing-to-specialize-against sort of fighter.

Is it as strong 'anti-squadron' as a TIE Interceptor swarm with Howlrunner? Not even close! Or as good at 'anti-ship' as twice as many TIE Bombers, backed up with BCC? Again, far from it. What it does, instead is...everything, but to only an 'average' level. For ships or convoys not big enough to bring along all the TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Advanced, and Bombers that they could possibly need - deploying only what made sense against a particular foe - the gunboat was an ideal 'all around' solution. For the few squadrons you could bring, just bring them as only gunboats, and now you have a capable-if-not-amazing response to anything.

Ie, it’s a Rebel Squadron in Imperial colours...

(as the school of thought is specialized vs all trades) ?

2 hours ago, xanderf said:

Of course, that was sort of the design intent of the gunboat in the first place, wasn't it? It was intended to be used as a 'jack of all trades' sort of who-knows-what-I'm-facing-to-specialize-against sort of fighter.

Is it as strong 'anti-squadron' as a TIE Interceptor swarm with Howlrunner? Not even close! Or as good at 'anti-ship' as twice as many TIE Bombers, backed up with BCC? Again, far from it. What it does, instead is...everything, but to only an 'average' level. For ships or convoys not big enough to bring along all the TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Advanced, and Bombers that they could possibly need - deploying only what made sense against a particular foe - the gunboat was an ideal 'all around' solution. For the few squadrons you could bring, just bring them as only gunboats, and now you have a capable-if-not-amazing response to anything.

Try it and tell me. What I see is what I would build, also adding FC. I think is good enough on every area but alpha strike and that could easily be changed with corrupter and/or AFFM. It would definitely remove my fighter screens or my bomber wings. I want that! And I don't see a reason to take anything else. I mean, of course 134 on bombers are gonna bomb better (are they?) But they provide much better AA coverage than what I loose on bombing. The same is applicable comparing them to howl interceptors. 6 blue dice are awesome but 4 are not bad at all considering they double the hull, the potential anti ship damage and hit the triple as average.

Ohhh all this artwork/card stats being teased about in here!

Please FFG!!! Please make GUNBOAT happen just like you did in X-Wing!!!

The above and some sort of 'Commerce and Trade Transport' Pack!!!

Think of the potential fun we could have with custom scenarios!

"Mu 1!? That unidentified cargo ferry is refusing to submit for inspection! Assist Assault Transport Omega 1 in boarding & capture operations immediately!"

On 12/31/2017 at 5:55 PM, xanderf said:

Of course, that was sort of the design intent of the gunboat in the first place, wasn't it? It was intended to be used as a 'jack of all trades' sort of who-knows-what-I'm-facing-to-specialize-against sort of fighter.

Is it as strong 'anti-squadron' as a TIE Interceptor swarm with Howlrunner? Not even close! Or as good at 'anti-ship' as twice as many TIE Bombers, backed up with BCC? Again, far from it. What it does, instead is...everything, but to only an 'average' level. For ships or convoys not big enough to bring along all the TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Advanced, and Bombers that they could possibly need - deploying only what made sense against a particular foe - the gunboat was an ideal 'all around' solution. For the few squadrons you could bring, just bring them as only gunboats, and now you have a capable-if-not-amazing response to anything.

Is it strictly better and more useful in most situations than other combinations? if so, @ovinomanc3r, has a very strong point. its probably OP at that point.

7 Gunboats, Dengar + Sloane and FC and BCC.

I have a feeling 2 blue is too weak though. blue black AA??

I just wanted to stop in and confirm that Sloane has scored first place in a Regional. Buddy of mine took first with Sloane in Independence, MO. I know this because we fought to a (practical) stalemate in the 2nd round and ended up 1st and 2nd... Sloane is a hard match for 2 ISDs with no squads. Nothing else to add, just making sure the facts are out there.