Basically looked at what the standard X-Wing did to become Rogue Squadron, and reversed that on the Firespray-31. IE., that switched 'Escort' out for 'Rogue' and added 1 pt. "Undo that" on the Firespray, and you get this:
Dunno 'bout you guys, but...I'd take that!
I like it. Add this to Squadrons 3, release date Q4 2019.
I just dont see why 17 points. 7 would be sufficient.
I like it, but it needs more SLAM.
17 minutes ago, Coldhands said:I just dont see why 17 points. 7 would be sufficient.
Not sure I follow the question?
Compare...
...to...
You swap out 'Escort' for 'Rogue' and that adds 1 pt. Because 'Rogue' is better than 'Escort'. Otherwise, ships are identical. Given that premise, apply to:
...you take 'Rogue' off and put 'Escort' back, and lose the penalty point. So down to 17.
Not exactly 'playtested' - it may prove this is still too high, as the generic Firespray isn't exactly dominating top lists which may point to a costing problem around it already. But at least that was the reasoning for this point value as a starting point.
Just now, xanderf said:Not sure I follow the question?
Compare...
You swap out 'Escort' for 'Rogue' and that adds 1 pt. Because 'Rogue' is better than 'Escort'. Otherwise, ships are identical. Given that premise, apply to:
...you take 'Rogue' off and put 'Escort' back, and lose the penalty point. So down to 17.
Not exactly 'playtested' - it may prove this is still too high, as the generic Firespray isn't exactly dominating top lists which may point to a costing problem around it already. But at least that was the reasoning for this point value as a starting point.
Okay, let me rephrase it: OP. Not gonna happen.
1 minute ago, Coldhands said:Okay, let me rephrase it: OP. Not gonna happen.
I find your lack of faith...disturbing.
It really is a very slight change to a ship already in the game, and paying a heck of a price penalty for it. I mean, consider that the Empire can already get - cheaper - the TIE Defender.
...that's a better fighter in every way, except a bit overkill on the anti-squadron for my taste, needlessly fast, and needs a bit more anti-ship kick.
Why not just take the tie defender, ditch 1 speed, give it Escort, then add 1 point.
Better abilities, better dice(than a Firespray), slightly slower.
Seems balanced.
Edited by Indy_com
2 blue bomber AND Escort is too good. Just spam the bejesus out of them with a Jumpmaster or two that they guard all by themselves and you just keep hitting ships until they're all gone (...if that ever happens). Even better with Sloane.
So I can't say I'm a fan.
2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:2 blue bomber AND Escort is too good. Just spam the bejesus out of them with a Jumpmaster or two that they guard all by themselves and you just keep hitting ships until they're all gone (...if that ever happens). Even better with Sloane.
So I can't say I'm a fan.
Honestly, I was only including Escort because that's how the last conversion worked. I'd be perfect happy leaving them 'bomber', only. Not sure what impact that would have on the price, though - certainly these things are tweaked by playtesting, but looking at them in a vacuum as a starting point, it's not super easy to tell what, say, 'Escort' or 'Rogue' are worth on their own (other than, apparently, 'Rogue' is worth whatever 'Escort' is +1)
4 minutes ago, Snipafist said:2 blue bomber AND Escort is too good. Just spam the bejesus out of them with a Jumpmaster or two that they guard all by themselves and you just keep hitting ships until they're all gone (...if that ever happens). Even better with Sloane.
So I can't say I'm a fan.
+1
1 minute ago, xanderf said:Honestly, I was only including Escort because that's how the last conversion worked. I'd be perfect happy leaving them 'bomber', only. Not sure what impact that would have on the price, though - certainly these things are tweaked by playtesting, but looking at them in a vacuum as a starting point, it's not super easy to tell what, say, 'Escort' or 'Rogue' are worth on their own (other than, apparently, 'Rogue' is worth whatever 'Escort' is +1)
But Rogue Squadron is ALSO unique. If you made yours unique you might have an argument, but it's not the same thing at all.
4 minutes ago, Indy_com said:Why not just take the tie defender, ditch 1 speed, give it Escort, then add 1 point.
Better abilities, better dice(than a Firespray), slightly slower.
Seems balanced.
Because I have no idea what Escort or Rogue is worth, aside from Rogue being 1 more than escort - so they appear roughly comparable (looking at the X-Wing vs Rogue Squadron). For all we know, each is built into the ship's value at +5 cost, so adding a keyword where there wasn't one bumps its cost up an enormous amount.
6 minutes ago, xanderf said:Honestly, I was only including Escort because that's how the last conversion worked. I'd be perfect happy leaving them 'bomber', only. Not sure what impact that would have on the price, though - certainly these things are tweaked by playtesting, but looking at them in a vacuum as a starting point, it's not super easy to tell what, say, 'Escort' or 'Rogue' are worth on their own (other than, apparently, 'Rogue' is worth whatever 'Escort' is +1)
Replacing escort with heavy, mayhaps...
Just now, geek19 said:But Rogue Squadron is ALSO unique. If you made yours unique you might have an argument, but it's not the same thing at all.
That's not how that conversion would go. If switching 'Escort' to 'Rogue' costs one point and adding unique is a penalty (IE., reduces cost on the fighter vs an identical generic), then switching 'Escort' to 'Rogue' would have to cost more than one point added. So reversing that would save move points.
IE., say adding 'unique' is a 2 pt discount vs a generic version (it's not, but for sake of argument to show the problem). So the X-Wing -> Rogue Squadron being only one point apart, accounting for a 2pt discount for being unique, would mean that the generic version of 'Rogue Squadron' should be 16 pts instead of 14. IE., Escort -> Rogue being +3 pts -2pts for unique = +1 net (which is what we are working with). If Escort -> Rogue is +3 pts, then taking that Firespray and -3pts on it = yes, please!
(FWIW, tossing the stats of the fighters into a spreadsheet and grinding through it a bit, I don't think unique on its own has any impact on pricing at all. Defense tokens do, but 'unique' does not.)
9 minutes ago, Coldhands said:Replacing escort with heavy, mayhaps...
I don't even hate that idea. Although the 'heavy' keyword does usually come with a cost reduction. How about...
I like it, but I think I'd make it one or two points cheaper and change the anti-ship dice from two blue to one black or perhaps red. That way it won't be the superior bomber over the Tie-bomber as that was never its intended role. Perhaps change 1 blue anti-squadron die to a black one to simulate all the missiles it carries.
edit: don't much like the new 2.0 card, the Assault Gunboat was not a lumbering bomber.
Edited by Lord TareqLet’s just make it really weird and add Escort AND Heavy.
4 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:I like it, but I think I'd make it one or two points cheaper and change the anti-ship dice from two blue to one black or perhaps red. That way it won't be the superior bomber over the Tie-bomber as that was never its intended role. Perhaps change 1 blue anti-squadron die to a black one to simulate all the missiles it carries.
edit: don't much like the new 2.0 card, the Assault Gunboat was designed as an escort, not a lumbering bomber.
Well:
1) The two blue anti-ship is the entire reason for the card. IE., it does something different than other Imperial generic squadrons - always useful to consider when adding anything to the game! "What does this do that is new/different?" And notably, here, to enable Sloane to be a bit more viable (she's super, super close, just...not quite there, yet)
2) Perhaps in the old EU lore that design intent was true. What FFG has printed on the cards in X-Wing is that the Star Wing was designed to be a multi-role fighter. IE., the jack-of-all-trades, not especially great at any one thing, but able to do any of them. They did split this up via the XG-1 and OS-1 titles for X-Wing, which unfortunately we can't really do here. (Not that I'd hate having two generic cards for the two sides of the stat dial, rather than a named pilot - but FFG has not done that to date, and I doubt they'd start here). Either way, even in X-Wing, the ship doesn't have the maneuverability of the proper 'escort fighters'...it's a lumbering boat.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a playable(tourney viable) double blue dice bomber for the imps. But, because of Sloane, I don't see it happening w/o rogue. And, there is the firespray for rogue.
I would take the original ship and swap out Escort for Grit. Maybe swap a blue for a red for both Anti Squadron and Anti ship Batteries.
1 hour ago, Coldhands said:Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a playable(tourney viable) double blue dice bomber for the imps. But, because of Sloane, I don't see it happening w/o rogue. And, there is the firespray for rogue.
It's still a lot of points for those two blue anti-ship, though.
Compare one (v2) to a pair of TIE Bombers. Yes, it's slightly cheaper (16 vs 18), but...
Without Sloane, you are paying nearly as much for a noticeably inferior platform. With Sloane, that changes the picture, but she is currently in a weak spot and needs the help, so....
Edited by xanderfChipping in, but I wouldn't want to see these guys with Heavy. XGs could handle themselves in a fight, and were perfectly fine running interference on behalf of other craft (so, they would lock down enemy fighters).
Escort was a good idea, but I think I'd go for Rogue since these fighters were pretty independent (wish we had these over Firesprays tbh...). For distinction I'd -1 hull to +1 speed, with three AA blue. Battery would be one black or two blues here. Rogue, Bomber. 16 points.
I like the idea of converting the TiE Defender a bit more than the firespray- after all, they are kind of competing designs. What I'd love to see is the Star Wing as a modular platform, instead of having an "ace" coming in two different flavours with Escort (Gunboat) and Bomber (Missile Boat).
Look, I'm just happy to talk about the Gunboat. These ideas look great!
Rogues dont woek wirh Sloane so thats a non starter