So with a friend for the holidays, they had another T70, so I tried to build something from what we had....

Theoretically, this list is the best I can make it, yet its also just... REALLY BAD. (At least I think so. Would you want to convince me otherwise?)

It actually does okay vs bombers due to sheer hull, but most T1 lists, Imperial lists, Nym Dengar whatevers will nuke this list out of the sky.

Blue Squadron Novice (24)
Flight-Assist Astromech (1)
Advanced Optics (2)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Blue Squadron Novice (24)
Flight-Assist Astromech (1)
Advanced Optics (2)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Resistance Sympathizer (38)
Rey (2)
Gunner (5)
Millennium Falcon (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I don't understand the question. Is this a question of list analysis? If so, I find your assessment incorrect...wait, I saved a meme just for this

The list has good action economy, repositioning and a fat turret. If you forced me to take this to a store champs or regionals, I'd be pretty confident in at least a mid-range finish even with my own admittedly unspectacular piloting skill. I built a triple T-70 list along a very similar lines, but with more named pilots and exotic upgrades. T-70's are really good and have a solid dial, good actions, good health and some really great slots (astro and tech in particular) that allow for a lot of build flexibility and action economy. The resistance sympathizer is also a perfectly fine ship and gunner + Rey is actyally a problem for dodgy aces even with with autothrusters along with 13 health making it a chore to kill.

Perfection is the worst enemy of close enough. If you do nothing but look for the perfect squad, you will always be dissatisfied.

That list looks like fun!

Though for the points, I'd do Chewie with Rage and Inspiring Recruit instead of the Sympathizer.

3 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

That list looks like fun!

Though for the points, I'd do Chewie with Rage and Inspiring Recruit instead of the Sympathizer.

No. That relegates you to green moves. It’ll come back to bite you in certain matchups

There's an old engineering expression that goes, "Sometimes close enough is good enough".

I doubt there is a perfect squad build. Are you looking for a squad that's "auto win" in anybody's hand? Or the perfect balance of tankiness and arc dodgy?

Well, first I tried to show that there exist the opportunity to counter my opinions, but apparently that's a good way to invite people to insult me. Its good to know there's only one right answer and its not mine.

The main gist of the thread is still to show how far disparate a jank build vs a T1 build can be.

As to @Stoneface's question, I'm looking for the most powerful builds out there. The very top two of the best.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

The main gist of the thread is still to show how far disparate a jank build vs a T1 build can be.

A) This is not a jank build. This is 3 well costed ships with usable upgrades, good durability and solid enough damage output that easy to modify or fully modify attack dice on a given turn. If you had a list with 2 HWKs with Blaster turrets escorting a pair of outer rim smugglers, then yeah, that would be some jank and legitimately hard to win with. This is where I'm lost with the thought exercise because despite not being T1, all of the ships you listed are 100% usable and I wouldn't be thrown off if I saw them at the upcoming regionals (maybe a passing "hmm...that's interesting", but not a full "WTF is going on with this ****?!").

B) Jank is not always weaker than T1 and frequently T1 also includes jank. Ezra, Miranda, Lohwrick seems pretty strong, but is a lot of jank. If the point is to illustrate that there is a strong disparity between good and bad fleets then...I dunno you got me there. I can't recall a game system I've played (and I've played a lot of them) where there wasn't, so I don't get why this point needs to be made or is particularly relevant to any conversation.

To go back to my original point, I don't understand where you're trying to go with this. The list isn't the best, but if I lost a bet and had to play it at a regionals, I could still have a good time with it and probably drop in the middle of the pack. A better player than I might even make the cut, but you seem to be trying to using it to prove a massive power disparity in the game which it really doesn't. There are way better examples to choose from like the TIE Punisher, the never used even for kicks Outer Rim Smuggler and even with a massive buff, the K-Fighters are still seeing very little play. On top of that, I don't really care if some things are really bad. I long ago accepted that some parts of any game simply aren't going to be worth your time because game designers aren't perfect and will make models that are basically pointless (if you've played Warmachine I'll just say Man'o'War and leave it at that).

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Well, first I tried to show that there exist the opportunity to counter my opinions, but apparently that's a good way to invite people to insult me. Its good to know there's only one right answer and its not mine.

The main gist of the thread is still to show how far disparate a jank build vs a T1 build can be.

As to @Stoneface's question, I'm looking for the most powerful builds out there. The very top two of the best.

An interesting thought experiment. I'm not sure they exist at least not yet. Since the JM5Ks were slapped down so hard and the release of the Cruise Missile and Harpoon Missile upgrades, along with the Bulleyes Arc, Scrambler Missiles and 5 New ship's, it may be too early to look for the best of the best. There's more ways to strip tokens outside of combat. More ways to get splash damage. It will take awhile for the game to shake itself out.

I think this release of waves 12/13 will have a bigger impact than realised. I'm not sure what direction FFG is moving the game but it seems they really might be trying to get to a rock-paper-scissors balance. You might be better off looking at the best 4 builds rather than only two. Or the best 6 if you assume that all three factions will be competitive.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

It actually does okay vs bombers due to sheer hull, but most T1 lists, Imperial lists, Nym Dengar whatevers will nuke this list out of the sky.

A limited list built out of a few ships/sets versus lists that have been distilled over 13 waves and years of meta analysis and competitive weeding out of every major weakness, with access (in most cases) of every ship and upgrade.

Yeah, that's gonna happen. Comparing such a list to meta lists is pointless, unless you plan on taking it to a competitive event.

1 hour ago, Koing907 said:

A limited list built out of a few ships/sets versus lists that have been distilled over 13 waves and years of meta analysis and competitive weeding out of every major weakness, with access (in most cases) of every ship and upgrade.

Yeah, that's gonna happen. Comparing such a list to meta lists is pointless, unless you plan on taking it to a competitive event.

Oh but that's the point. To win Worlds. =)

@MasterShake2, your concept of meta and mine cannot live mutually i guess. I mean to win a Regional. You want to go to the middle. We're both talking, and not saying the same thing. Also everything I say is just wrong. So there isn't much point to me talking to you anymore now eh? There are consequences to using that meme. One of which is that I get this very negative amount of energy directed from you to me. If such is your intent, you have greatly succeeded.

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

So with a friend for the holidays, they had another T70, so I tried to build something from what we had. . .

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm looking for the most powerful builds out there. The very top two of the best.

Why would you expect to scrum around with "what we had" and then expect a T1 build?

I can't be the only one confused by the point of this thread, right?

If this is the best list you can actually make, then so be it. It isn't a bad list. We really don't know what you have for options, if you are trying to determine what the best combination of your specific cards are. Other than that, are you asking for what, regardless of ship type or faction, are the best lists right now? Tough to tell, given how in-flux the game is following the recent wave release and FAQ.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why would you expect to scrum around with "what we had" and then expect a T1 build?

I noticed their disparity.

2 hours ago, dsul413 said:

I can't be the only one confused by the point of this thread, right?

No, I can assure you.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh but that's the point. To win Worlds

11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

So with a friend for the holidays, they had another T70, so I tried to build something from what we had....

I am not sure if limiting yourself to what you have will win you worlds. If that is your true goal, you already have weakened your position by not using every single resource that is available. Others will. Chances are against you with this approach.

I get your problem. You really can't just put ships on the table anymore, since the power level of some things is so far beyond the average ship now. Some of the newer players might find this confusing - after all a well constructed list should have the edge, right? However early on one of X-Wings biggest draws was that you could just put any of your ships on the table and compete, since the disadvantage was never as large. So understandably, some of us miss that.

I don't think the list in the OP is hopeless, btw, by replacing the aweful Falcon with a real closer like Miranda can prevent the insta-fold. But then you've replaced the Falcon with a thing and made casual movie fan #37 sad.

At this point in the game it is really important to communicate with your opponent before pickup games to be clear on what you want and I am afraid some of us more seasoned players forget this at times and chase off fresh blood. I know I have been guilty of that playing double K-Wings against a guy that ran a 6 TIE swarm with a naked inquisitor. The frustration was real when I could just SLAM circles around him while he ate bombs. Maybe got in 4 shots that game...

Alright, let me try to answer what I *think* were the OP's questions:

1. Can a "Tier 1" list be made with a 2x T-70 X-wings and a YT-1300?
2. What is the strongest list one can build with these exact three ships?
3. (my own addition) What is the strongest list that can be made with "similar" restrictions?

So let's start with the easiest question:

Q1: Can a "Tier 1" list be made with a 2x T-70 X-wings and a YT-1300?
To answer the question, we need to have a definition of what "Tier 1" list means. Given that OP didn't specify this, here's my own definition:

Tier 1 list: a list that is consistently seen in top cuts of major events (regionals and above)

As per this definition, I don't think a "Tier 1" list can be made that has these 3 exact ships, at least not in the current X-wing meta. The data available on http://meta-wing.com seems to support this.

I hope that we can agree about these two facts:

• The relative power balance between different pilots/ships/upgrades in XWM is not ideal, and as a result only a handful of ships/builds can actually compete for the "Tier 1" spot at any point of time
• Neither Blue Squadron T-70s nor the Resistance Sympathizer (nor many many other ships) are strong enough at this point to meet the Tier 1 bar

How each one of us feels about these facts is totally personal - however, we should all be inclusive and supportive of different opinions. Those of us who'd like the game to have a better balance (myself included) have a couple of options:

• Embrace "victim mindset" and cry/scream for "injustice" (not very effective IMO, can be seen as annoying)
• Be proactive/constructive and try to improve the game balance (provide feedback to FFG, help build a better-balanced "Community Mod" and/or improve other data analysis tools like ListJuggler and MetaWing, help create "house rules" / "alternate formats" that provide better balance inside or outside of 100/6 format, ...)
• Wait until things improve / abandon XWM and try to find a game with better internal balance

So we each have a decision to make

Now for the more fun part of the OP's question:

Q2: What is the strongest list one can build with these exact three ships?

Personally I'd go for something like this:

• 2x Blue Squadron Novice / Flight-assist Astromech, Primed Thrusters, Integrated Astromech (26 each)
• Chewbacca (original) / A Score To Settle, Rey, C3-PO, Millenium Falcon (original) (48)

Primed Thrusters can be removed to upgrade C3-PO to Gunner, or to add an EPT to Chewie (Lone Wolf?). I don't think this build is strictly "better" than what OP proposed, but it's another idea to explore. Still, it's clear that build is also very far from the "Tier 1" band at the moment, objectively speaking.

In general, I think the main challenge in producing a tournament-worthy list that fits the OP's archetype is the large cost of "fat rebel turrets" -> the point cost for common builds for YT-1300 and YT-2400 (as per MetaWing) are roughly as follows:
- Dash Rendar goes from 52 points ("Eco Dash" with LW/Rey) to 58 points (classic "Super Dash")
- Rey builds go from about 55 points to 62 points (Expertise/Finn/Kanan/Engine/MF)
- Han builds go from about 57 points to 64 points (Predator/C3-PO/Luke/Engine/MF)

With two T-70 X-wings costing 50+ points (2x Blue Squadron Novice with 1-point astromech and IA), it's hard to create a 3-ship list under these restrictions. However, if it would be acceptable to use 2 Rookie Pilot T-65s instead, we would have more options available:

• 2x Rookie Pilot / Flight-assist Astromech, Integrated Astromech (22 each)
• Rey / VI, Finn, Kanan, MF, Smuggling Compartment, Inertial Dampeners (56)

One could use Chewie/Dash instead of Rey here, possibly even a very slim Han as well. Personally, I think the "2x Rookie + Fat turret" builds are more well-rounded than the "2x Blue T-70 + fat turret" builds, but I don't think either of them has "Tier 1" potential at the moment.

Q3: What is the strongest list that can be made with "similar" restrictions?

The most successful lists (as per Meta Wing) involving a T-70 and a YT-1300 are Poe/Han lists and Poe/Rey lists, neither of which is actually "Tier 1" at the moment (as per the definition above). They are reasonably close though, with multiple people flying each of the archetypes at store championships, but none of them having seen top cuts at major events recently.

I don't understand the problem here.....

Is it a bad thing that the game has depth? That you can't just throw ships on the table and have something that could take on the top lists in the game right now?

I for one would be a lot more worried if a list you threw together from "what you had" could compete on an even footing with lists that players have spent months fine tuning, because that would either make you some kind of x-wing savant or say something terrible about the game.

The gulf between casual and competetive listbuilding is something which exists in almost every wargame and ccg/tcg. It is not something to be worried about, it is not something you should try and remove.

They aren't better because they are more fine-tuned, though. List building in X-Wing has never been hard, the only list that required innovation was Dengaroo, everything else is just building blocks pasted together. And that is fine, since the game itself is so compelling, but deadly for variety when some of the blocks are just better by a large margin.

Food for thought. No Tier 1 list started as Tier 1. All of them had a point in their lifespan when the list was new and untested. Then someone tested it and found it was good.

You don't win major events by chasing metas, you win them by defining them.

5 hours ago, namdoolb said:

I don't understand the problem here.....

Is it a bad thing that the game has depth? That you can't just throw ships on the table and have something that could take on the top lists in the game right now?

I for one would be a lot more worried if a list you threw together from "what you had" could compete on an even footing with lists that players have spent months fine tuning, because that would either make you some kind of x-wing savant or say something terrible about the game.

The gulf between casual and competetive listbuilding is something which exists in almost every wargame and ccg/tcg. It is not something to be worried about, it is not something you should try and remove.

This 100%. People need to stop with the unrealistic expectation that every ship in the game needs to be equal at the highest level of play.

You can Play to Play, or you can Play to Win. Every ship in the game does not need to be a member of both pools.

Since I Play to Play, I avoid the Play to Win components. So my options are limited to "not everything" from the opposite viewpoint.

But there's no reason why every ship can't be competitive.

I've been flying four T-70's with Flight Assist in a vassal tournament. You can win but you have to fly them perfectly. There is zero margin for error. They are just a point or two too expensive while other cards are are point or more too cheap.

Game isn't broken exactly but it could be better.

If anything, following the most recent FAQ and release of this wave, the game is arguably in one of the better places its been for years.

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Food for thought. No Tier 1 list started as Tier 1. All of them had a point in their lifespan when the list was new and untested. Then someone tested it and found it was good.

You don't win major events by chasing metas, you win them by defining them.

Triple Jumps were put together the moment that preview was out. Palpaces was so obvious even FFG previews got them more or less right.

45 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Triple Jumps were put together the moment that preview was out. Palpaces was so obvious even FFG previews got them more or less right.

Yep.

No apologists for the meta plz.

Miranda was obviously extremely strong.

4 TLT

Ah, lots of attention for the holiday season. What a great self gift!

The list you posted is not bad at all. I would fly it

I would consider Poe and Rey (or Han) a T1 list. Would require Heroes of the resistance and a few additional upgrades. Cost would be moderate.