I know that these things are often dismissed because of their cost and relative ineffectiveness, but consider this:

With Sato, they can throw 2 black dice at medium range if they are using concentrate fire. At only 24 points and combined with their tendency to not die due to scatter, they would pose a very cheap combat threat. You could even throw in disposable caps for a 2 black dice long ranged potshot for 27 points a flotilla. This seems like 2-3 of these flotillas would make good filler for a sato fleet. Is it just me or is this viable?

There are some Sato aficionados around here who are more qualified than I am to answer this. Personally, though, I agree that this is a reasonable approach, particularly if you also brought Toryn in the fleet to make that blue flak 50% more reliable to support your squadrons.

3 of them, slicers on two, toryn supporting them, and they are good in Sato lists, yes. At least they worked for me quite well.

Yup they are good.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/09/16/uk-nationals-satos-star-destroyers/

I actually advocate combat refits for every flotilla beyond the first one in your fleet.

47 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I actually advocate combat refits for every flotilla beyond the first one in your fleet.

Confirmed.

Why?

29 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Why?

Why what?

Who why what? :]

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Who why what? :]

When?

?How

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

I actually advocate combat refits for every flotilla beyond the first one in your fleet.

I'm going to third this, with the exception that fairly frequently I just can't find the points to bring multiple Combat Retrofits.

This is a fine idea... but don't go nuts and try to run like 7+ flotillas with this. You'll mess around and face a Cracken fleet and you'll never be able to take a shot.

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Who why what? :]

Why run combat retrofits with Sato?

Why run combat retrofits in any fleet?

Why run Toryn?

Why is the sky blue?

Why did Blail post randomly "why?" in a thread with no context and then acted like a **** when he was asked for clarification?

No skin of my nose if you dont want an answer to your question.

The only issue i would raise is that whenever i run or face the 'combat' version of either flotilla to be worth the points they have to go straight in with CF commands. Which means they are flying straight into my front arcs with little options. Also, as soon as a couple have to stop CF to nav or comms net or command squadrons or whatever all their combat ability drops right off.

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Yup they are good.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/09/16/uk-nationals-satos-star-destroyers/

I actually advocate combat refits for every flotilla beyond the first one in your fleet.

Is that mostly for the flak? If you've got Toryn on the regular transport, the other two sit next to it?

Would you ever recommend the more expensive gozanti variants?

I tried a bunch of combats with Cracken and disposable caps, once. It was 3 combats and 1 transport with Yavaaris and Admo. My experience was skewed, given the 6 activations and using Cracken, but some thoughts on Combat Refits:

Even with disposable caps, I found that their narrow arcs rarely got ship shots off. In that light, I’d advocate for no more than two of these in a fleet.

As Ophion pointed out, it’s hard to line up their shots without also being in the arc of something that’s probably a whole lot meaner, and trying to line up more than one of these in addition to your heavy hitters without losing them to those arcs is a massive headache (I literally got a massive headache at the end of the 3 round tournament).

I’ve used Sato a lot, but not with combat Refits despite several list building sprees trying to incorporate them. What I decided, based solely on experiences with flotillas dying too easily when getting close to the fight, was that a better commander for them is Cracken, who lets them get closer to the fight and reduces the risk of instant death. That preserves your combat power, rather than relying on potential burst damage with no rerolls (except from a CF token).

Massive double post

53 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Is that mostly for the flak? If you've got Toryn on the regular transport, the other two sit next to it?

Quote

Would you ever recommend the more expensive gozanti variants?

Not really. Without Toryn the flak range increase comes shackled to lower damage chance. A red dice ship attack is also really unreliable.

To respond to others comments about using concentrate fire commands. I fly my flotillas near my squads so I can be sure to contribute flak shots, rather than as anti ship. Where they come into use against large ships is usually for dropping ISDs where every little helps. If you commit to taking out an ISD then chances are that you have multiple ships in range and so they wont shoot your combat flotilla. Two black, or better yet 4 with opening salvo, which probably arent priority for using defence tokens can really hurt.

There is no point using cf against anything with an evade. Use them for squad support and the anti ship shots be a bonus rather than the driver.

7 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Why run combat retrofits with Sato?

Why run combat retrofits in any fleet?

Why run Toryn?

Why is the sky blue?

Why did Blail post randomly "why?" in a thread with no context and then acted like a **** when he was asked for clarification?

No skin of my nose if you dont want an answer to your question.

All good questions.

Sorry, I was feeling silly.

Yes, why combat refits for each flot after the first?

55 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

All good questions.

Sorry, I was feeling silly.

Yes, why combat refits for each flot after the first?

Because flotillas rarely have better things to do with their captain slot so you can add Toryn and Bright Hope to the first. Subsequently buffing all combat flotillas after.

I think you caught me badly this morning, but I could have been less blunt also.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

Because flotillas rarely have better things to do with their captain slot so you can add Toryn and Bright Hope to the first. Subsequently buffing all combat flotillas after.

I think you caught me badly this morning, but I could have been less blunt also.

No, you caught me badly. I was being cheeky unnecessarily.

Uhh, btw, what did you mean by captain slot? I didn't understand that.
(Other than the very obvious Toryn trap set up)

Let's say you don't want to run Toryn. Does this advice still apply? (Or would it be better to say that Toryn trap is T1 and it should be present in nearly every list that has blue dice?)

Does it also apply for Gozanti groups? Especially so for lists that don't plan on using Gozanti spam as actual damage. Meaning, non-8Gozanti Tarkin/Vader shenanigans. (So far, my uses of 2-3 Gonzanti's have all been garbage and upgrading the front gun to a red would not have helped any.)

I've tried a Sato fleet with 3 combat retrofits (mostly so people wouldn't choose Opening Salvo as the mission) but as others have mentioned there are some significant downsides - the need to maneuver toward the enemy, the relative ease of negating its firepower with an evade, and the multitasking often required of a flotilla (driving squadrons, blocking demolisher, etc). I didn't find Dcaps worth the expense for those reasons, and because unless you're playing Opening Salvo you don't get as much benefit per point out of that long range shot (only 2 dice worth with CF) - which again is even more easily negated at long range against an evade,

What I do find them incredibly useful for is:

1) Blue flak. As previously mentioned, it's a great way to help win the squadron fight, as long as you have Toryn, and enough blues on target to contribute significantly. One or two blue flak a turn isn't going to help your squadron fight all that much, but 3 or 4 blue flak over two turns can turn the squadron fight around. Except against GH and Ciena.

2) Fire Lanes shenanigans. A combat retrofit can sit for the whole game off to one side at speed 0, nursing a fire lane token for the whole game, and earn you 90 points. Not bad for a 24 point investment. Even better if you have relay in your fleet as it can contribute squadron commands. Its cheaper cousin can't do that.

3) Being a versatile addition to the fleet. It can do all the usual things a flotilla's good for (blocking, squadron commands, etc) plus above two items, plus in a pinch can add 2-3 damage per turn against a big target (ideally with no evades). You generally choose one of those things per turn (depending on dial) but since it's a command 1 ship it can really flex to your needs.

In a Sato fleet, the question really isn't why should you take a Combat Retrofit - it's why shouldn't you? I'd have a hard time coming up with another 6 point upgrade that helps you out as much as everything we've talked about here.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

(Or would it be better to say that Toryn trap is T1 and it should be present in nearly every list that has blue dice?)

Pretty much what I believe. Officer slot rather than Captain slot.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Does it also apply for Gozanti groups? Especially so for lists that don't plan on using Gozanti spam as actual damage. Meaning, non-8Gozanti Tarkin/Vader shenanigans. (So far, my uses of 2-3 Gonzanti's have all been garbage and upgrading the front gun to a red would not have helped any.)

I havent found a use for red gozanti. I find the blue sufficient.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Does it also apply for Gozanti groups? Especially so for lists that don't plan on using Gozanti spam as actual damage. Meaning, non-8Gozanti Tarkin/Vader shenanigans. (So far, my uses of 2-3 Gonzanti's have all been garbage and upgrading the front gun to a red would not have helped any.)

The 23 Point Gozanti is actually really good for ship damage. It’s easy to double arc with, and this is much better employed against ships versus against squadrons. The 24 Point transport has different maneuverability and upgraded flak (wth Toryn boosting) over the Gozanti, but that’s it. All the 5 point increase to the Assault variant gives you is a different die and maybe-better flak.

It seems to me that FFG designed both flotillas with squadrons primarily in mind, but they made the Gozanti a dual purpose ship. There have been many times when a Gozanti had me sweating with a double arc on a critically injured ship, which I can’t say the same of for transports.

3 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

The 23 Point Gozanti is actually really good for ship damage. It’s easy to double arc with, and this is much better employed against ships versus against squadrons. The 24 Point transport has different maneuverability and upgraded flak (wth Toryn boosting) over the Gozanti, but that’s it. All the 5 point increase to the Assault variant gives you is a different die and maybe-better flak.

It seems to me that FFG designed both flotillas with squadrons primarily in mind, but they made the Gozanti a dual purpose ship. There have been many times when a Gozanti had me sweating with a double arc on a critically injured ship, which I can’t say the same of for transports.

I never seem to get my Gozanti's to double arc. And they tend to miss. Or be completely irrelevant levels of damage. =/ Or be flying past the enemy and have the rear no-gun facing the opponent. I have no idea what the angle is either on that arc. Seems like it isn't 45.