I don't hate this movie at all, but I left the cinema really disappointed, many different reasons, some already mentioned. Basically do you want a SW movie that tells you the SW you know is lame and its here to make it kewl, but at the same time just takes major storypoints we have seen before, switches the order and serves you the basic frame for a Clone Wars episode. It had great moments and bad moments, its going to be a personal balance where you land. But believing all people disliking this are just haters is only blinding yourself. Enjoy the movie and I hope you like it

Just now, SpikeSpiegel said:

Yet these adults don’t realize how bad of a movie R1 is, especially since it was made purely for fan service with a garbage plot to sell toys to their children. I really don’t understand why people will hate TLJ and can’t even admit that R1 was horribly flawed and poorly written.

It's not like Red Letter Media slammed both R1 and TLJ or anything.

its new and different and not the same as star wars without being TOO same as a copy of the og star wars. Don't let this distract you from the the fact that in 1966, Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School, including the game-winning touchdown in the final seconds against his old nemesis, Bubba "Spare Tire" Dixon.

I edited this down from my response to the spoiler-containing version of this thread.

My answer to this question is that people are being picky. I don't mean that in a mean way, I just mean that the people who don't like the movie are usually listing a couple dozen small things that they hated, rather than one huge overarching problem.

It's a long movie. Every Star Wars movie has corny scenes, scenes I would've done differently, odd scenes that don't add to the drama, yes, even Empire. The fact that this movie was so long meant that there was more time for weird stuff to happen. The scenes usually thought of as "bad" were kind of the "comic relief" of the movie, and those kind of scenes always draw criticism. Because this movie has more of everything, it has more of those too.

I think that a lot of people don't like humor. I for one enjoyed it, I can see why others don't. I think that humor is an essential part of the Star Wars universe, and I'd find it really hard to watch a Star Wars movie without it. If you just want serious science fiction, watch Star Trek - it's probably more scientifically accurate anyway. But a lot of folks felt like the humor was overdone enough that it seemed forced - I didn't get that, but I can see why some do.

I think that a lot of the problem is the mindset you approach the movie with. A lot of people came in expecting another movie in the original trilogy, and didn't get it. A lot of people came in expecting another Rogue One and didn't get it. I just wanted to sit down and enjoy it, and that's what I did. I think despite the errors, I just liked it, and I'm not sure why, I didn't really like TFA, my favorite Star Wars films are the original trilogy and Rogue One. But for some reason I can't really explain, I just liked it.

The next few paragraphs discuss the characters in the movie. There's no plot spoilers or really major character spoilers, but don't read further if you don't want to know anything about the characters' personalities.

Disney didn't adapt their script from my fan-fic, so they're wrong.

40 minutes ago, SpikeSpiegel said:

Almost everyone that claims to be a hardcore Star Wars fan who loved Rogue One will hate TLJ, and there is no apparent reason why this correlation is true.

Because Rogue One looks and feels like an authentic Star Wars film. The story in Rogue One contributes to the story of the Original Trilogy. The story in Rogue One is consistent with the story in the Original Trilogy. And - most importantly - Rogue One takes nothing away from the story of the Original Trilogy.

In addition, the practical effects, character design, costuming, world building and overall attention to detail in Rogue One is an entire order of magnitude above that in The Least Jedi. That's not to say the special effects in The Least Jedi weren't amazing - they were - but they were nowhere near as authentically Star Wars as they were in Rogue One.

Give me one example of an original, practical, alien character design from The Last Jedi that is as well realised as Edrio Two-Tubes in Rogue One. Compare the casino in Canto Bight to the marketplace in the Holy City of Jedda. Watch the space battles in Rogue One side by side with the battles in The Least Jedi. There's simply no comparison.

Flatout: its not the trilogy

Cant discuss the reasons im not a major fan of it but if even me, someone that routinely tears starwars movies apart for plot holes and useless scenes across all movies, can still enjoy the movie its not a bad movie. It has issues, lots of issues, but it was still fun to watch.

I thought it was ok. Could have been more like this.

...AND FURTHERMORE..

Jyn is more of a believable, relatable and better developed heroine than Rey.

Cassian is a more believable, relatable and better characterised foil for her than Poe.

Director Krennic is a more believable, more threatening villain than General Hux.

K-2S0 offers less jarring comic relief than BB8.

Yeeeesh. The more I think about The Least Jedi, the worse it gets. Literally switch your brain off at the door.

29 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Because Rogue One looks and feels like an authentic Star Wars film. The story in Rogue One contributes to the story of the Original Trilogy. The story in Rogue One is consistent with the story in the Original Trilogy. And - most importantly - Rogue One takes nothing away from the story of the Original Trilogy.

In addition, the practical effects, character design, costuming, world building and overall attention to detail in Rogue One is an entire order of magnitude above that in The Least Jedi. That's not to say the special effects in The Least Jedi weren't amazing - they were - but they were nowhere near as authentically Star Wars as they were in Rogue One.

Give me one example of an original, practical, alien character design from The Last Jedi that is as well realised as Edrio Two-Tubes in Rogue One. Compare the casino in Canto Bight to the marketplace in the Holy City of Jedda. Watch the space battles in Rogue One side by side with the battles in The Least Jedi. There's simply no comparison.

That is a very fair point, Rogue One looked a good deal more Star Wars with their designs, even if they did over do some of the fan service like with two guys that Luke later runs into on Mos Eisly. And part of what helps make Rogue One enjoyable is the second half because lets face it if it maintained the pace and feeling from the first half the film wouldn't be as memorable but that whole ending is just good fun. And I enjoy the fact they even had some of the old alien races in there which is something I find odd about both TFA and TLJ since they don't use any of the PT or OT aliens outside of returning rebellion characters.

Oh but lets not forget the fact that Rogue One suffers from why the heck the Tantive IV was even at the battle at Scarrif!? And it makes Leia's bluff to Vader in ANH come off less as a bluff and more of a drunk trying to say "No officer, I wasn't driving drunk!~"

And both TFA and TLJ suffer in my mind from having to deliberately put the OT heroes in bad places or hamstring them a bit so as to make the new characters stand out. That was the reason why Luke didn't really show up until the tail end of TFA since they felt it would take the shift too much from Rey, why R2 and 3PO are religated to the back ground since it would take away from BB-8 and the list goes on.

17 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Because Rogue One looks and feels like an authentic Star Wars film. The story in Rogue One contributes to the story of the Original Trilogy. The story in Rogue One is consistent with the story in the Original Trilogy. And - most importantly - Rogue One takes nothing away from the story of the Original Trilogy.

In addition, the practical effects, character design, costuming and world building in Rogue One is an entire order of magnitude above that in The Least Jedi. That's not to say the special effects in The Least Jedi weren't amazing - they were - but they were nowhere near as authentically Star Wars as they were in Rogue One.

Give me one example of an original, practical, alien character design from The Last Jedi that is as well realised as Edrio Two-Tubes in Rogue One. Compare the casino in Canto Bight to the marketplace in the Holy City of Jedda. Watch the space battles in Rogue One side by side with the battles in The Least Jedi. There's simply no comparison.

The story of Rogue One was horrible and contributes nothing we don’t already know from the opening crawl of ANH/Star Wars. I’m not gonna deny the fact that the sets and costuming was great from R1, nor that I didn’t enjoy the movie visually, but the plot was godawful and there was just way too many unnecessary things in the movie.

If we’re gonna be critical of the plot to TLJ and want to talk about how inconsistent and ridiculous it is, we can’t ignore how silly it is that Andor’s character goes from cold-blooded Rebel Assassin to “oh, maybe I won’t shoot this guy after all because his daughter seems pretty chill” or how Jyn goes from hostage/tool-for-the-cause not caring about the Rebellion to suddenly becoming their unifying mouthpiece. And what about the Rube-Goldberg machine heist to WiFi-drop the Death Star plans onto a floppy disk just so we can give everyone a Vader-gasm, yet we see him fight like he’s walking on two peg legs against Obi-Wan a day later? Not to mention how the only character that dies who’s worth a tear is K2 while the rest of the team dies in some uninteresting explosion. And the gross amount of fan service, my goodness, they weren’t even subtle about it.

I think a lot of Star Wars fans have rose colored glasses on and will see what they want to see without considering the overall message. Rogue One emphasized “hope” a bajillion times even though we know the Rebels get away, they blow up two Death Stars, and there is room for tentacle porn monsters in Star Wars. TLJ’s overall message of killing the past getting on with the story has way more of an impact over “Daddy built the death star and the nickname of its weakness is S T A R D U S T”, not to mention TLJ isn’t about a Death Star which is already one leg up over R1.

8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...AND FURTHERMORE..

Jyn is more of a believable, relatable and better developed heroine than Rey.

Cassian is a more believable, relatable and better characterised foil for her than Poe.

Director Krennic is a more believable, more threatening villain than General Hux.

K-2S0 offers less jarring comic relief than BB8.

Yeeeesh. The more I think about The Least Jedi, the worse it gets. Literally switch your brain off at the door.

Ehh...not so much for Jyn really. I mean the first time we see Rey in TFA is really good at showing her character and is probably one of my highlights of that film where we see her going through her day. Agreed on Cassian though I don't think Poe is really meant to be any foil for Rey. You are definitely right for Krennic, Hux especially after this film doesn't come out looking all that threatening or intimidating. K-2SO and BB-8 are a tad different in their forms of comedy with BB-8 meant more to be cute, and to be fair I like them both even if TLJ kicks BB-8 humor up to cartoon levels.

And yea, that is an issue I sort of have with TLJ, I enjoyed and will probably enjoy it again if I watch it again (sans some scenes) but it is a film that when I think about makes me ask a whole bunch of questions, a number of which make me look back at the OT and PT and have to wonder why they didn't do some of the things that apparently they can do in this one.

3 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

Ok. I have seen a lot of stuff saying t The Last Jedi was bad, but both my brother and friend of mine have said it's great. II haven't seen the movie yet, but the questions been rackin' my brain recently. So, WITHOUT SPOILING ANYTHING!!!!! , can some explain the hate?

Do you have expectations about how it's going to go and what's going to happen?

If so, prepare for it to fly in the face of those expectations. Some people really don't like that. Some people love that.

The best thing I can suggest is watch it. Then you'll be in a position to formulate your own opinion on it.

The other thing I'd suggest is be very careful asking this forum for reasoned arguments. In my experience too many people here use the Countdown method: start with a conclusion and then come up with arguments to fit it. There are some very insightful, thought-provoking and occasionally brilliant insights on these forums but there's also a lot of emotion masquerading as logic.

I was exceptionally disappointed by this film. To the point that I have "given up" on the future of star wars. Yeah....

What is so shocking to me is that there is such a disconnect among people who consider themselves life-long fans of the franchise. My closest friend who tends to reflect my tastes really enjoyed this movie. I am completely aghast at how that is the case. Without getting into spoilers....

- The writing: this felt on par with something from Marvel Cinematic Universe (which isn't a bad thing in of itself, however, does NOT mesh well with Star Wars). I feel the movie has two halves -- one with generally serious tone that tells an interesting story about the evolution of the force and one that contributes nothing, is full of glaring holes, and that detracts from the rest of the film. The amount of "quips" or one-liners that have completely the wrong tone was very high, including the aforementioned "your momma" jokes.

- The characters: we were just given a new cast of characters, and RJ oddly felt the need to shoehorn in a bunch of accessory characters that aren't central to the action of the film, to the point where they literally state their exposition, how they feel, an oddly how their character's arc unfolds. There's a rule in storytelling of "Show-Don't-Tell;" this movie failed miserably at that.

- The idea of continuity: this movie firmly states, explicitly, that the Star Wars you knew and like and have ideas about is gone. It more or less "resets" the board state by the end of the film.

- Baffling character choices: one of the main OT characters has a pretty insane scene that just feels awful and borderline disrespectful. I realize now that sentence actually applies to multiple different characters....

These are just a few of the things that really stood out to me as shocking. I'm cutting myself off so I don't go insane. I am absolutely shocked that this final treatment got approved by someone at Disney. It's just shockingly bad. I encourage you to watch it and come to your conclusion, but honestly this movie is Phantom-Menace/Attack of the Clones tier bad. I would say Revenge of the Sith ranks above it. That's really saying something.

32 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Because Rogue One looks and feels like an authentic Star Wars film. The story in Rogue One contributes to the story of the Original Trilogy. The story in Rogue One is consistent with the story in the Original Trilogy. And - most importantly - Rogue One takes nothing away from the story of the Original Trilogy.

In addition, the practical effects, character design, costuming, world building and overall attention to detail in Rogue One is an entire order of magnitude above that in The Least Jedi. That's not to say the special effects in The Least Jedi weren't amazing - they were - but they were nowhere near as authentically Star Wars as they were in Rogue One.

Give me one example of an original, practical, alien character design from The Last Jedi that is as well realised as Edrio Two-Tubes in Rogue One. Compare the casino in Canto Bight to the marketplace in the Holy City of Jedda. Watch the space battles in Rogue One side by side with the battles in The Least Jedi. There's simply no comparison.

I very much enjoyed both Rogue One and TLJ, but for different reasons. Rogue One is an absolute triumph of OT Star Wars design. Every character, costume, ship, feels in-place in the universe. It adds so much to that era while taking nothing away from the OT, as you said. It is the ultimate sand box movie, which is part of why I love Star Wars so much; I can play a game like X-Wing, or draw pictures like I did as a kid, or play Starfighter Assault from Battlefront 2, and feel this epic adventure and war in this cool universe. Edrio fascinates me as a character, as an example, even if utilized in such a small way in the movie.

The combat in Rogue One surpasses any of the other movies, and I don't think its close. The design of those scenes are beyond amazing and imply a level of competence and coordination in both militaries that we never even get remotely close to in the ST. Again, ultimate sand box movie.

Rogue One loses out with its human characters compared to the ST in my opinion.

I believe your criticisms of TLJ in world-building, design, etc. are valid, but apply to both TLJ and TFA. TLJ feels very similar to TFA in that the universe feels "small" compared to the OT. The combat, while looking great, makes me wish for R1 combat. ST combat isn't that much better/worse than OT combat before R1, but R1 sets a new standard.

16 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...AND FURTHERMORE..

Jyn is more of a believable, relatable and better developed heroine than Rey.

Cassian is a more believable, relatable and better characterised foil for her than Poe.

Director Krennic is a more believable, more threatening villain than General Hux.

K-2S0 offers less jarring comic relief than BB8.

Yeeeesh. The more I think about The Least Jedi, the worse it gets. Literally switch your brain off at the door.

I agree regarding Krennic. I don't see Poe filling the same role as Cassian, while K-2S0 and BB-8 are very different other than being the droid sidekick. I much prefer Rey as a character to Jyn, although I liked all the R1 characters as well.

4 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

Ok. I have seen a lot of stuff saying t The Last Jedi was bad, but both my brother and friend of mine have said it's great. II haven't seen the movie yet, but the questions been rackin' my brain recently. So, WITHOUT SPOILING ANYTHING!!!!! , can some explain the hate?

Wrong choices. That's all.

It changes the way how StarWars worked for 7 movies.

It changes the characters, how they worked sice a New Hope.

Honestly, if it wasn't StarWars, it should been a fine movie. But the thing is that the director is working into the SW lore, and he simply can't change so much destroying, in fact, what 7 movies had build.

....and add the power of the laugh from Disney: you have to laugh for everything.

Litterally.

For.

Everything...

My complaints with TLJ are largely cinematography sins that they committed. Nothing spoiler specific, just how the production was made and how the story was told.

Can’t explain it much else without spoilers, minor or major.

Its not a terrible movie, and it brings lots of good scenes to it. It does however have some fairly noticeable flaws.

It spends most of its run time inserting tone-deaf second-tier Marvel movie humor into scenes that are supposed to be serious, undercutting any dramatic tension that was building.

The plotline is very... small feeling. Which leads the entire film to film like a bloated episode of a television show.

It has a roughly thirty-minute long sub-plot that has virtually no payoff, and worse, the subplot is the side-effect of the classic element of bad storytelling: one character not giving another character important information.

If TFA hit the Reset button on Star Wars, this movie hits the Reset button on the New Trilogy, which is a very bizarre thing to do in the middle of a trilogy. In the end, the only film in this entire trilogy that will matter is the next one Everything that happen ed in Episodes 7 and 8 will effectively be almost completely meaningless.

It's not awful but the criticism is all deserved.

Most people actually enjoy the film, its a vocal portion of the fanbase that make it seem like everyone hates it. The petition to get the film struck from canon only ever got 7000 votes (mildly pathetic showing).

Why do they dislike it? Well most likely because of one of these three reasons:

1) Many went in with over blown expectations of either how they wanted the story to play out or that they wanted their theory to be right. We've had thirty years to blow up the stories of Luke, Leia, and Han and any divergence is going to create friction.

2) Despite the criticism of the Force Awakens, many deep down wanted more of the same, either the Original Trilogy 2.0 or the Expanded Universe 2.0. Where Rogue One is the Expanded Universe the movie and lets be honest plays it safe, the Last Jedi is the opposite.

3) Going in with negative perceptions. When you hate anything its easy to find reasons to hate it more while the reverse is just as true. We've had thirty years to digest the original movies and break them down in every way. The Last Jedi has been out a week. Plots that seem pointless in such as Canto Bight require more thought to actually know why they fit in the story.

4) The comedic bits were'nt their type of humor so half the movie can seem to fall flat (That's understandable, I loved most of it but if this is why that's fair)

Sooo, you are came to the conclusion that most people liked TLJ, because only 7000 people signed a silly petition to remove it from canon? What a brilliant display of logic and reasoning.

3 minutes ago, Revanxv said:

Sooo, you are came to the conclusion that most people liked TLJ, because only 7000 people signed a silly petition to remove it from canon? What a brilliant display of logic and reasoning.

Its not my only reasoning at all nor did I say as much. You assume sir and you know how that goes. I bring it up because it goes to show how little support there is for something so vitriolic towards the film.

My reasoning is largely anecdotal. I've seen it three times in theaters and all three times a good 80% of the audience gasped and laughed consistently through and enjoyed the experience. My first time was with a hefty Star Wars fanbase on opening night. I have not met anyone that hates the movie that isnt some stranger online.

Most people that are going to see these movies don't typically have the same problems with these films as we fans do, especially given that the prequels are beloved by the younger generation coming up (See Battlefront Devs bashing the PT then falling to public outcry and included Clone Wars era material).

The Last Jedi is going to go the same direction, except its a billion times better then any of the prequels.

19 minutes ago, Revanxv said:

Sooo, you are came to the conclusion that most people liked TLJ, because only 7000 people signed a silly petition to remove it from canon? What a brilliant display of logic and reasoning.

I mean, you realize how many people watched it right? Or how many superfans there are of Star Wars? That's actually a pretty tiny number by today's standards. Besides, anything online like that is suspect - Rotten Tomatoes scores and online petitions can be pretty easily doctored.

Well, personally I think that TLJ fails because it isn't a story at all in any classic sense. A bunch of character pass the idiot ball around for two hours and change while acting out scenes that don't add up to a coherent plot, and by the end, we haven't really progressed anywhere.

It's not a story – it's over two hours of fanservice. Also, there are many who just didn't find any of the so-called humour remotely funny. There was no drama or tension. There were no character arcs or development. It didn't answer any questions; it merely dismissed them. and it didn't raise any new questions or provide any sense of mystery.

TFA ended in a way to make people wonder what happens next. TLJ answered with: "Nothing interesting."

Pretty sure that's why it's getting hate.

From what I've read, it's mostly a lot of characterization issues, a secondary plot that has very little impact and a lot of screentime, and slapstick humour that doesn't hit home for a lot of people. Also, there certainly are some facepalm-worthy moments in there for sure.

Those who like it cite the gorgeous visuals, unexpected twists and turns, head-on addressing of the criticism TFA got ( in a way that also riles some people up to be sure).

I find the picture to be of starkly varying quality from scene to scene. What is good is often great and memorable, and the things they ballsed up they reeeally took some big leaps to make sure one notices they fell flat on their face.

I can only suggest to go see it. Good and/or bad, it is something to see. Everyone I asked about has noticed the same things as pros and cons and still reacted completely different to it. I guess there is really only one way to see where one falls on the spectrum.

51 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

I find the picture to be of starkly varying quality from scene to scene. What is good is often great and memorable, and the things they ballsed up they reeeally took some big leaps to make sure one notices they fell flat on their face.

This. Every scene is pretty much either very very good or very very bad.

my biggest cinema sin complaint is timing and pace - they simultaneously try to throw way too many pieces at the puzzle and then also don’t cover a lot of ground story wise (paradox? Maybe but see it and you will understand). The film is disjointed, and by trying to have so many pieces featured in their production a lot of them, in my opinion, feel incomplete or made their purpose in the movie unclear because they didn’t quite do enough to be worth their investment but they were brought in more than a background extra or sequence you can forget about.