1 minute ago, Revanxv said:

Sooo, again, why not just make two jumps, one out of the system and other back into it. There's no reason for not doing it, other than that it would not be convenient to the plot.

Because they didnt need to. Did you not watch the movie or know anything about the First Order or the Empire? The entire point is they're always defeated by their own arrogance.

Why didn't Tarkin get off the Death Star? Why did Ozzell drop out of hyperspace to close to the system and alert the Rebels? Why did Needa nearly crash his ISD into two others and not scramble all fighters to take out the millennium falcon? Why didn't the Emperor wait till the second Death Star was completed to lay the trap? Why didn't Piett intensify forward fire power sooner on the Executor? Why did the stormtroopers not form a defensive line around the shield bunker rather then just chase the ewoks out into the woods? Why did the First Order build a third Death Star with the defensive weakness of the first? Why did'nt they scramble all fighters for the dreadnaught five minutes ago?

The First Order plan was actually full proof and WORKED until the Raddus hyperspaced through the fleet.

The Resistance couldn't jump to the next system without running out of fuel and they were going to run out of fuel running from the First Order so to Snoke and Hux all they had to do was just chase them. They played with their food before killing it.

The whole point is just like every Imperial blunder their arrogance was their undoing, that is a FUNDAMENTAL concept in Star Wars from the beginning.

20 minutes ago, Revanxv said:

Sooo, again, why not just make two jumps, one out of the system and other back into it. There's no reason for not doing it, other than that it would not be convenient to the plot.

The other reason to not do it is that you are deciding that would work.

Is there any reason to assume that they'd be able to jump out and then accurately guess where "ahead of" the rebel fleet might be, especially as the position of the rebel fleet is changing by the second?

You are literally just making **** up and demanding to know why they didn't do the thing you just made up.

Why didn't Luke just smash all those AT-ATs to pieces, form all the debris into a giant spear, and then force throw the spear into Kylo Ren's shuttle?! He could've ended the war! What a stupid movie!

20 minutes ago, Forresto said:

The whole point is just like every Imperial blunder their arrogance was their undoing, that is a FUNDAMENTAL concept in Star Wars from the beginning.

Unfortunately. At least for those of us who root for the Imps.

13 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

If anything, we should have a petition to remove Jar-Jar from canon!

No.
He has some great clone wars episodes.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

No.
He has some great clone wars episodes.

Theysa were bombad!

I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry. Please don't hurt me.

15 minutes ago, Sekac said:

The other reason to not do it is that you are deciding that would work.

Is there any reason to assume that they'd be able to jump out and then accurately guess where "ahead of" the rebel fleet might be, especially as the position of the rebel fleet is changing by the second?

You are literally just making **** up and demanding to know why they didn't do the thing you just made up.

Why didn't Luke just smash all those AT-ATs to pieces, form all the debris into a giant spear, and then force throw the spear into Kylo Ren's shuttle?! He could've ended the war! What a stupid movie!

Getting within 100kms of your target destination like Han did in TFA was considered basically impossible astrogation ... the only guy who actually solved micro jumps that precise was Thrawn, and he simply cheated by using mass shadows to PULL his ships out exactly where he wanted.

7 hours ago, Kieransi said:

I have to say, Rey is probably the best female character in any action movie. Action movies, in my mind, usually do a bad job at handling female characters. In a lot of older movies, women only acted as damsels-in-distress, and the reaction has been to have newer movies have women leads who are often pseudo-men, who think with their fists rather than their heads, and have irrational rage and other overly macho qualities. I think that portraying women as having to act like men to survive in an action movie is a huge trap - it ends up disempowering women, because they are at a huge disadvantage pretending to be something they're not. And that's something that I think Star Wars always did better - Princess Leia was the original empowered yet feminine lead, and she fit the damsel-in-distress archetype while still fighting the Empire (Star Wars Insider has written some excellent articles on this subject). And I think that Rey follows this example very well. Rey is definitely empowered in the way people expect of modern action movies - fighting the royal guards, lifting the rocks, firing the guns on the Falcon. But in this movie, she's also a character who's not afraid to be feminine - she cried at least five or six times in the movie, did what she did to protect her friends (not to seek vengeance), and was intelligent in her conversations with Kylo, trying to reason with him rather than intimidate him. Basically, Rey is the same character as Luke - this powerful Jedi who has a perfect balance of masculine and feminine qualities. It makes for a good movie, because all the decisions are harder for such characters (Luke only barely chose to fight Palpatine, only barely chose not to kill Vader, only ignited his Lightsaber twice in RotJ. Rey only barely decided not to follow Kylo, only barely decided to leave the island, etc.). But it also makes for great characters, because it shows that both men and women should be allowed to use both sides of their personalities. As opposed to TFA, Rey was really allowed to be feminine in this movie, and I think she's one of the very few characters (really just her, Leia, and Luke) who is allowed to be a powerful action hero and also demonstrate strong feminine personality traits. And that's why Rey is now tied with Luke as my favorite Star Wars character (and thus my favorite fictional character, because Star Wars is the best).

I'd suggest you get out and watch more movies. Just sayin'. Your opinion and all, I get it, but...

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

I keep reading that point but it makes no sense to me. Is micro-jumping a thing? I've never heard of it. Why should we assume this is a possibility--especially as one of the criticisms of the movie is it diverges from established Star Wars ideas.

Close control of hyper jumps has been a standard feature of the EU-canon, but it goes back to ESB:

"Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

"He felt that surprise was wiser than ..."

"He is as clumsy as he is stupid ..."

The don't have to jump 10km ahead of the Rebel ship -- they can jump a ways out and let the ship come to them, since if it changes course they pursuers gain on them. Super-precise control isn't needed, just the level of control they had at Hoth.

If they'd instead said "We're to close to [D'Qar / Crait], we can't jump out of the mass shadow" I'd have bought it at face value. That's consistent.

15 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

If they'd instead said "We're to close to [D'Qar / Crait], we can't jump out of the mass shadow" I'd have bought it at face value. That's consistent.

That would actually be a HUGE contradiction to Rogue One, TFA and Rebels. Even the falcon in ANH gets not really far away before jumping to lightspeed. If you really want this chase, it would have been so much easier with interdictor cruisers to achieve. Still, this does not affect the story at all, it just an issue with the world building. The story works regardless, the technical details just need to change … which would have been an even better movie.

16 minutes ago, Scopes said:

I'd suggest you get out and watch more movies. Just sayin'. Your opinion and all, I get it, but...

I have actually watched plenty of modern movies and I don't really think they've done much in the way of improving how female characters are portrayed. The alt-right Facebook trolls seem to agree with me that this is an especially feminist movie:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a38cb78e4b0860bf4aab5b1

(note that I don't really want to get political and I don't always trust Huffington Post, but this article seemed pretty fair in its representation of both sides and links to actual Facebook posts)

2 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Absurd to you, fine. Let's agree to disagree. Throwing the saber was the opposite of all those qualities I mentioned, and he did nothing to redeem himself until the end. He just moaned, walked away and made Rey go through unnecesary motions in order to get him to engage with anyone apart from his own misery.

The milk scene was irrelevant to his portrayal of temprament. Yes, he lived on a cold windswept island, drinking the local ambrosia, but "who are you?" is not a graceful way to meet and greet anyone. Uncouth and monks are not synonymous terms.

The ending was relatively good, if stupid, and mollified me slightly, but I was emotionally detatched from it at that point.

I left the cinema depressed. I am happy that many people enjoyed the movie, especially my daughter, but it killed me emotionally. I'll go back to Ep.9 for her, where I expect to find Abrams doing a relatively decent job of showing a galaxy in chaos as a new form of balance emerges. I'm starting to think he gave Johnson the push to write this the way he did, knowing the flak from certain quarters would fall on the patsy's shoulders and he could ride back for the glorious end.

^ This. My kids loved it, I felt the same way you did both times I walked out of the theater. My exact sentiment: "I waited 2 years for this? "

The OT characters are characters I cared about. I hate the treatment they are getting. People say that they're tired of the "Skywalker Soap Opera", but that's what we got in these two, so far. I hate it on many levels.

I tried it a second time because my daughters wanted to see it and I had been following fan reaction to this movie. I really figured something was wrong with me, that I missed something.

To some, perhaps I did miss something(s). I don't agree. I tried to like this movie, but in my book it's at least as bad as AOTC, if not the worst SW production I've seen since the Christmas Special...and I saw the CS live on TV when I was in the first grade. At the time, I loved it. Now...I can't make it much past the credits of that one. This one is very close to that.

I am in the minority here, evidently, but Rogue 1 had me on the edge of my seat from the time the heroes landed on Scarif until the final credits rolled. RO was a good movie made really good by a pheonomenal third act despite the "Disneyfication" of the franchise. George, I blame you for that. Sorry. Had to get that off my chest. There was no point in TLJ where I was concerned about the well-being of the characters, because other than Leia (for obvious reasons) no character was really expendable, and evidently she wasn't in this episode. Fair enough. Disney's gonna Disney, and that for me doesn't help. I was surprised by Luke's demise, but only because they did it; that entire portion of the movie was not engaging to me once I realized how it was going to play out. I am sad to see him meet his physical end.

And people seriuously think that the Rey/Kylo "crossover fight" was the best lightsaber scene in the entire movie catalog...how can people say that when these five exist (in no particular order):

1. Obi-Wan/ Qui Gon vs. Maul

2. Luke vs. Vader on Bespin

3. Vader vs. Rebel Fleet Troopers

4. Luke vs. Vader, Round 2

5. Obi-Wan vs. Vader

Any one of these has 100% more emotional appeal, 100% more tension, and 100% more meaning than the forced fan service scene we got in TLJ, although an argument for fan service could be applied to the third entry in the above list. If they don't, then I am not sure what to say. The Rey/Kylo fight was eye candy on the order of Yoda vs. Dooku or Yoda vs. Sidious. Nothing else.

The only thing I really liked about TLJ was how they treated Kylo Ren. He's a much more believeable villan this time, and is one I am really interested in and (a little bit) invested in. The movie does capture his heritage rather well (sociopathic killer, ace pilot (kinda...), force-wielder of power, fallen knight-type) and the trope does serve the series.

22 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Close control of hyper jumps has been a standard feature of the EU-canon, but it goes back to ESB:

"Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

"He felt that surprise was wiser than ..."

"He is as clumsy as he is stupid ..."

If they'd said "We're to close to [D'Qar / Crait], we can't jump out of the mass shadow" I'd have bought it at face value. That's consistent.

That's totally different. Imagine Hoth is the bullseye of a dart board. They're arguing about which one of the concentric rings they should've jumped into.

Jumping into within weapons range of a moving fleet would be like having someone throw a dartboard in the air and hitting a bullseye.

A completely different challenge.

it seems most people wanted fan service from this movie. Snokes backstory monologue , Rey's parents to be a kenobi, skywalker, solo or palpatine, Luke to face down the first order and Kylo Ren with his laser sword etc. etc.

People complained that the Force Awakens was a New Hope re-booted, Rian Johnson came up with something totally different than any other Star Wars movie and the people hate that too...

I for one really liked the movie. It wasnt perfect, nothing is. But being familiar with some of Rian Johnson's work (like Looper) I came into The Last Jedi expecting the unexpected. Let the haters hater, I enjoyed The Last Jedi

14 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I have actually watched plenty of modern movies and I don't really think they've done much in the way of improving how female characters are portrayed. The alt-right Facebook trolls seem to agree with me that this is an especially feminist movie:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a38cb78e4b0860bf4aab5b1

(note that I don't really want to get political and I don't always trust Huffington Post, but this article seemed pretty fair in its representation of both sides and links to actual Facebook posts)

I agree with you on the politics...I also want to leave that out of it. I think that there is a certain amount of politicization that is taking place with this franchise, but that's just my thoughts. I don't have the desire or the energy to defend my views, so I'll leave vague statements vague.

There are a number of movies (modern and aged) that I would argue show women in roles that do not demean their feminity but make the to be the social glue and heroines that everyday women are. There isn't a need, in my opinion, to turn them all into "Rambolinas" or superherines written to overcompensate for past slights, real or perceived.

But that word "feminist" has been hijacked, so it's a problem, I definitely agree. I didn't think this movie was feminist any moreso than TFA, and my daughters are much bigger Star Wars fans now then they were prior to TFA. That does make me happy. I do have issues (as others have posted) about the overdoing of said roles, but again, that's just my opinion. I don't have the desire or the energy to defend my views, so I'll leave vague statements vague. Again.

And thanks for not flaming me. I think my post came across more condescending than I wanted it to. It wasn't my intent. Thanks for keeping it positive.

8 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Oh my god.
There's no lol big enough.

I get the irony believe me but look at it this way before thinking it’s so funny. Luke Skywalker, written white kid, played by a white male, IT is a part for a white male. The level of retardedness we are reaching is that this character could be played by say an asian female and if you don’t like it you are a narrow minded bigot. Instead of making a new interesting character they would be basically saying, who cares **** white males we are taking this because we are lazy. Yes media has been white dominated for several hundred years but if you really want to be social justice champions would it not make someone look more respectible to rise above the situation than stoop to it? Basically the country needs a hard dose of Dr King and far less Malcolm X.

2 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

I get the irony believe me but look at it this way before thinking it’s so funny. Luke Skywalker, written white kid, played by a white male, IT is a part for a white male. The level of retardedness we are reaching is that this character could be played by say an asian female and if you don’t like it you are a narrow minded bigot. Instead of making a new interesting character they would be basically saying, who cares **** white males we are taking this because we are lazy. Yes media has been white dominated for several hundred years but if you really want to be social justice champions would it not make someone look more respectible to rise above the situation than stoop to it? Basically the country needs a hard dose of Dr King and far less Malcolm X.

Very true.

@Scopes, cheers, thanks for not getting all up in my face. I don't know where you live but here in the States feminism has unfortunately become a completely taboo word.

I just know that right after The Force Awakens, a lot of my female friends saw Rey as an especially powerful female role-model, and I thought that this movie only continued that further by allowing her to explore the feminine side of her personality (just as Luke was allowed to explore the feminine side of his personality in Episodes V and VI).

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

That's totally different. Imagine Hoth is the bullseye of a dart board. They're arguing about which one of the concentric rings they should've jumped into.

Jumping into within weapons range of a moving fleet would be like having someone throw a dartboard in the air and hitting a bullseye.

A completely different challenge.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, otherwise fleets would never be able to meet up in open space like they have been shown to do, for instance in Rebels. They must be able to use coordinates provided by ships at the location, or otherwise been provided with relevant positional data, to be able to come out of hyperspace reasonably close to other ships.

Using the information that they have from the ships already at the location (the chasing fleet), they should have been able to have other ships come in at a point in space ahead of the chase, or otherwise have some of the chasing fleet jump off, and then back, and use coordinates with a projected route. At that point, its just cutting them off.

Edit: For example, the destruction of the Rebel fleet in here and here. The Rebels crew jumped to a point in open space to meet up with the Phoenix Home and the rest of the fleet. Vader was able to jump to their location with a tracking beacon. Later a Star Destroyer fleet was able to jump to their same position within striking range, either from the same beacon or from positional data given to them from Darth Vader's ship.

1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

I get the irony believe me but look at it this way before thinking it’s so funny. Luke Skywalker, written white kid, played by a white male, IT is a part for a white male. The level of retardedness we are reaching is that this character could be played by say an asian female and if you don’t like it you are a narrow minded bigot. Instead of making a new interesting character they would be basically saying, who cares **** white males we are taking this because we are lazy. Yes media has been white dominated for several hundred years but if you really want to be social justice champions would it not make someone look more respectible to rise above the situation than stoop to it? Basically the country needs a hard dose of Dr King and far less Malcolm X.

I'm trying to figure out if this post is dumber than the one I quoted before it.

1 hour ago, Scopes said:

Very true.

Reclaiming space in movies previously denied to poc's and women is exactly the kind of movement mlk would have endorsed. So I don't know what you're mad about, white fragility I guess.

As for how hyperspace works I think its far more complicated then we think, otherwise why wouldn't the rebels simply escape Hoth from another part of the planet?

Again the real reason the First Order didnt hyperspace a Star Destroyer ahead of the fleet, is because they don't simply have to. They won the battle, the whole movie is a trap.

Its the same reason the Empire deployed about twenty Star Destroyers rather then fifty to obliterate the Rebel Fleet at Endor, over confidence.

3 hours ago, Forresto said:

The whole point is just like every Imperial blunder their arrogance was their undoing, that is a FUNDAMENTAL concept in Star Wars from the beginning.

This I will agree with. Overconfidence over the scrappy underdog is the running trait of the Sith Empire / Galactic Empire / First Order in the Star Wars storylines. Its one of the reasons that I think JJ Abrams took the "lazy approach" and had the First Order destroy the New Republic with Starkiller Base. He needed the Resistance to be in the position of "the scrappy underdog" again, instead of being the Republic Forces against the First Order in a decent slugfest between two sovereign nations.

9 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

She still has absolutely no business being that powerful in the force.

And your assumption to know the rules for this universal, galaxy-wide energy-field comes from what? ;-)
Breaking assumptions is the crime this movie is guilty. And I love it for that.

TLJ is my absolute favorite Starwars movie. I rate Rogue One as a slightly below average Starwars movie. The inverse correlation between TLJ & Rogue One reviews from individuals is very intriguing. This I don't understand, but it is likely a clue to understanding the mystery that is TLJ.

From my perspective, the polarizing reactions it has induced are indicative of its journey beyond the realm of 'blockbuster' and into the realm of art. Additionally, it intentionally invokes a broader array of emotions in the viewer compared with any modern mainstream movie. You are suppose to feel disgust when you see what Luke has for breakfast on the island. (in the same way, Jabba the Hutt invokes disgust) You are not suppose to be afraid of Hux, or the First Order. This movie is not a 'safe space' for your feelings or opinions. The big characters & their storylines feel very Shakespearean to me. Many people don't like Shakespeare.

The rift in public perception of this movie is the last five years second biggest real world example of people's varying personality types. It would take Carl Jung & a long conversation to get to the bottom of this. Archetypes would definitely be involved.

"Archetypes abound in contemporary films and literature as they have in creative works of the past, being unconscious projections of the collective unconscious that serve to embody central societal and developmental struggles in a media that entertain as well as instruct." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes#In_popular_culture

2 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Reclaiming space in movies previously denied to poc's and women is exactly the kind of movement mlk would have endorsed. So I don't know what you're mad about, white fragility I guess.

I hope you realise that most of white people were never responsible for any form of slavery, war or injustice? Because through centuries most of white people were just trying to survive, were abused by people in position of power, and overwhelming majority of them were just simple peasants, more often than not practically living life of slaves (in Russia for example, peasants, which stated about 80-90% of whole country population, were practically slaves till the XIX century).
I like how SJW ignorants hate any generalisation towards people of color, yet passionately generalise white men.
There are no good and bad races, there are good and bad people. I am tired of SJW idiots and their "evil white cis-gender heterosexual man" agenda.

Now imagine that you are using phrase "black fragility" in the same, sneering tone when talking with some black guy. Unbelieveable.