14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:And Poe wouldn't have mutinied if he knew the plan and was helping to enact it...
Doesn’t excuse his behavior.
Why do people hate TLJ? (Spoilers)
3 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:Doesn’t excuse his behavior.
Of course it does he was desperate to save his fellow rebels and took an extreme chance in an effort to escape the FO BECAUSE HIS COMANDER DID NOT TELL HIM HER PLAN!
7 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:Of course it does he was desperate to save his fellow rebels and took an extreme chance in an effort to escape the FO BECAUSE HIS COMANDER DID NOT TELL HIM HER PLAN!
It makes sense that he did what he did (whether or not you think he was right).
It also makes sense that Holdo was tight-lipped about her plan. It depended on secrecy - the fewer people who realized what was happening, the better. Poe didn't need to know what was going on; he wanted to know what was going on. Let me tell you from experience that this sort of tight-lipped behavior is absolutely normal within military ranks, especially when we're talking about a new incoming commander dealing with a somewhat disgraced and pushy subordinate.
2 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:It makes sense that he did what he did (whether or not you think he was right).
It also makes sense that Holdo was tight-lipped about her plan. It depended on secrecy - the fewer people who realized what was happening, the better. Poe didn't need to know what was going on; he wanted to know what was going on. Let me tell you from experience that this sort of tight-lipped behavior is absolutely normal within military ranks, especially when we're talking about a new incoming commander dealing with a somewhat disgraced and pushy subordinate.
Sure, but she simply could have said, "There is a plan currently being executed which does not require action from you or your squadron. Due to opsec, I cannot give you more information, Captain. I will notify you when you and your team are needed" instead of (paraphrasing) "Flyboys like you piss me off, I don't owe you a **** thing, now get off my bridge."
21 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:Of course it does he was desperate to save his fellow rebels and took an extreme chance in an effort to escape the FO BECAUSE HIS COMANDER DID NOT TELL HIM HER PLAN!
I thought he mutinied the minute he learned that the transports were leaving and thought it to be suicidal (which, mind you, proved to be correct after cloaking was gone). Before he learned they were going to abandon ship, he was cross and worried about morale, but he drew his gun only after learning the basics of the plan. He was acting on incomplete information, as he did before, but what he knew was correct and did not sit well with him at all- and his fellow mutineers too, after all.
I mean, wasn't that pretty much the point? Poe has a reputation that is known to Holdo, and though Poe does what he does in the best interest of the fleet, he applies his fighting spirit to a fight that is lost. Holdo was very unlikeable because of her behaviour, but a) had a lot more important things to adjust to, just stepping in for Leia on short notice and b) really had Poe's number on that one.
Edited by DampfGeckoAre we still just glossing over the fact that Holdo wasn't actually pissed at Poe for any of his actions because he's handsome?
13 minutes ago, kris40k said:Sure, but she simply could have said, "There is a plan currently being executed which does not require action from you or your squadron. Due to opsec, I cannot give you more information, Captain. I will notify you when you and your team are needed" instead of (paraphrasing) "Flyboys like you piss me off, I don't owe you a **** thing, now get off my bridge."
That might have been her answer to him if he'd been more respectful in his approach, or if the resistance was being run more by-the-book. Making demands to your CO like that (In public, casting doubt on their ability to command) is really bad form. How much deference should a newly-demoted captain be showing their new admiral? A lot more than Poe was showing. The resistance is a pretty lax bunch of people, but there are limits to that.
I get the point that's being made here, but I don't think it's as big of an issue as it's been made out to be. Her response is well within what I'd consider believable. Was it the right move? Maybe - or maybe not. Would Poe have backed down if she'd told him her plan? Not necessarily. It was pretty clear that he thought he should have taken command in Leia's absence (at least from my reading of the scene where command is handed over to Holdo).
TLJ sets up a ton of possible plot routes then chooses the most predictable and least interesting thing with them each time. The resistance commander could have told Poe the plan at any point as there was no reason not to.
14 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:Are we still just glossing over the fact that Holdo wasn't actually pissed at Poe for any of his actions because he's handsome?
I think the line where Holdo gazed into Dameron's eyes and whispered, "I wish I could quit you" was left of the cutting room floor.
8 minutes ago, rafcpl6868 said:TLJ sets up a ton of possible plot routes then chooses the most predictable and least interesting thing with them each time. The resistance commander could have told Poe the plan at any point as there was no reason not to.
How does the First Order find out about Holdo's cloaked transport evac plan?
Hint: Poe's bad grasp of opsec is involved
It's too bad the resistance didn't have AFN commercials...
Edited by Babaganoosh
1 hour ago, Hobojebus said:Of course it does he was desperate to save his fellow rebels and took an extreme chance in an effort to escape the FO BECAUSE HIS COMANDER DID NOT TELL HIM HER PLAN!
Hes a captain, she was an admiral.
If the resistance wasnt down to about 10 people Leia should execute him for mutiny.
He already shouldve been in jail for getting the entire bomber fleet and its crew wiped out. Bodies the resistance could hardly afford to lose.
Edited by Stu3521 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:That might have been her answer to him if he'd been more respectful in his approach, or if the resistance was being run more by-the-book. Making demands to your CO like that (In public, casting doubt on their ability to command) is really bad form. How much deference should a newly-demoted captain be showing their new admiral? A lot more than Poe was showing. The resistance is a pretty lax bunch of people, but there are limits to that.
I get the point that's being made here, but I don't think it's as big of an issue as it's been made out to be. Her response is well within what I'd consider believable. Was it the right move? Maybe - or maybe not. Would Poe have backed down if she'd told him her plan? Not necessarily. It was pretty clear that he thought he should have taken command in Leia's absence (at least from my reading of the scene where command is handed over to Holdo).
Yeah, Poe certainly was not acting correctly in many ways. Like earlier, I think Poe should have been in the brig for how he disobeyed Leia's direct orders and got a huge amount of his pilots killed on an attack of opportunity. Him openly doubting Holdo on the bridge was also not acceptable behavior.
Once Holdo was in command after the deaths of most of the command structure, I personally think she should have done a bit more to assuage the situation, instead of demanding unquestioning obedience without attempt to convince the officers under her command that with even the slightest, "Don't worry, I got this. We've already got a plan in motion" and slinging insults at the one that does openly ask for leadership a couple of times before it finally came to a head.
24 minutes ago, kris40k said:Yeah, Poe certainly was not acting correctly in many ways. Like earlier, I think Poe should have been in the brig for how he disobeyed Leia's direct orders and got a huge amount of his pilots killed on an attack of opportunity. Him openly doubting Holdo on the bridge was also not acceptable behavior.
Once Holdo was in command after the deaths of most of the command structure, I personally think she should have done a bit more to assuage the situation, instead of demanding unquestioning obedience without attempt to convince the officers under her command that with even the slightest, "Don't worry, I got this. We've already got a plan in motion" and slinging insults at the one that does openly ask for leadership a couple of times before it finally came to a head.
Yeah; she may have made a mistake in not telling Poe that she was doing something, without revealing the real plan to him. I don't think the question here is "did holdo act correctly?", but rather, "Did holdo act believably?". I think the answer to the second is definitely yes. The answer to the first question is debatable, but less important- characters should be allowed to make mistakes, but should always act believably.
I do wonder if Poe would have accepted a vague answer - I really think that he thought he should have been in charge, not Holdo. (What do you think on that angle, by the way?) Coming from that angle, he would probably want to know what Holdo was doing, in order to appraise that course of action.
It's also important to not that when Poe did discover the plan, he unnecessarily transmitted the details of that plan and ended up compromising it. If he had not been insubordinate or loose-lipped, the plan probably would have worked. That chain of events goes a long way toward vindicating Holdo's tight lipped response. And I also found that chain of events believable, so I don't see a problems with the way this aspect of the chase plot arc played out. (Plenty of other stuff annoyed me; just not this part)
8 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:I do wonder if Poe would have accepted a vague answer - I really think that he thought he should have been in charge, not Holdo. (What do you think on that angle, by the way?) Coming from that angle, he would probably want to know what Holdo was doing, in order to appraise that course of action.
Poe is definitely a "man-of-action" type ("Permission to hop in an X-Wing and blow something up?") which I can see being a concern, however I think that he is able to trust others to come through for him, he just needs something to be done, and not just sit by waiting for inevitable destruction. This is demonstrated in that he was able to put the survival of the entire fleet in Finn and Rose's hands, and not insisting he had to lead that mission personally (which would have been problematic). So, I do think that as long as he knew that something was being done, that there was an actual plan being acted on, he could have sat tight.
Of course Holdo didn't know this much about him and couldn't make decisions about him based on that.
As far as him being in charge of the entire fleet? I don't see that aspiration in him currently. Following the typical Star Wars movie rebel promotion schedule, he'll likely be a general in the next movie, but I don't think that he was gunning for that position this movie soon after the deaths of most of the command staff and incapacitation of General Organa.
1 hour ago, RampancyTW said:Are we still just glossing over the fact that Holdo wasn't actually pissed at Poe for any of his actions because he's handsome?
He is so handsome though. You can’t stay mad at that face!
1 hour ago, kris40k said:Poe is definitely a "man-of-action" type ("Permission to hop in an X-Wing and blow something up?") which I can see being a concern, however I think that he is able to trust others to come through for him, he just needs something to be done, and not just sit by waiting for inevitable destruction. This is demonstrated in that he was able to put the survival of the entire fleet in Finn and Rose's hands, and not insisting he had to lead that mission personally (which would have been problematic). So, I do think that as long as he knew that something was being done, that there was an actual plan being acted on, he could have sat tight.
Of course Holdo didn't know this much about him and couldn't make decisions about him based on that.
As far as him being in charge of the entire fleet? I don't see that aspiration in him currently. Following the typical Star Wars movie rebel promotion schedule, he'll likely be a general in the next movie, but I don't think that he was gunning for that position this movie soon after the deaths of most of the command staff and incapacitation of General Organa.
I'd recommend taking a second look at the scenes around the announcement of Holdo's assumption of command of the fleet. I thought Poe had an expectant look on his face, followed by disappointment when Holdo was designate the commander. I think that informs his decisions going forward. I could be wrong; I would need to watch again to really confirm that. It's also a subjective thing to begin with.
Say, I just thought of a nit that nobody else has mentioned here. When Luke vanished at the end of the movie, his robe just flitted away in the wind? Why wasn't it pinned down by the robotic hand that inevitably would have been left behind when the organic part of his body disappeared? Also are Force ghosts naked and have to will clothing into existence on themselves?
As to the leadership dynamics between Mr. Popo and Hodor and Poe's actions in general, here's my take:That dreadnought was likely going to take the Raddus out before it could make the jump to hyperspace. Heck, as mentioned many times, if it had taken out the Raddus first instead of going after the base, we wouldn't have much of a movie. In any case, the siege guns were warming up when the bomber dropped its payload. The loss of life of the pilots and bomber crew were more than justified to prevent this from happening. War sucks, people die, you do your best to make sure that the least number of your people die, but people still die. Poe saved the fleet but he did so by being insubordinate. He also focused more on the destruction of the dreadnought rather than the net saving of lives (which likely irked Leia). It's likely that his success is what kept him from being thrown in the brig, but his inability to justify his actions in disobeying her order led to the demotion.
Honestly, I don't think Leia should have been micromanaging Poe in that situation in the first place. She's not in charge of the ship (that would be Akbar), she's not in charge of the fighters (Poe), she's not in a situation where she has a good view of the tactical situation (I've never heard a Star Trek-like 'they're preparing to fire weapons' sensor reading in Star Wars), and in any case most of those fighters likely had their own hyperspace capabilities so it isn't like the fleet needed to stick around and get shot at. Let the battlefield commander handle the battlefield commands. Heavily centralized command structures have been proven time and again to be unwieldy and easy to disrupt.
As for Holdo, I have seen a lot of commanders sit on intel because they don't want it widely disseminated. The only time that this is a bad thing is when people below them need that information in order to effectively conduct their own missions. Poe had no such need and indeed didn't even have a need to know. Considering he had just recently been captured and had his mind poked at by a Sith Emo Knight of Ren, he should appreciate the need to keep this information in as few brains as possible. But he wanted to be in the loop and was shot down.
Holdo probably should have said something along the lines of 'just wait and see what I've got planned, we're not beaten yet' instead of making a seemingly half-hearted 'maintain course' that made it look like she had her back to the wall and couldn't think of any way to escape the situation. A good chunk of command is the impression of authority that you give to your subordinates. Appearing indecisive when the clock is ticking down to everybody dying is going to cause people to take things into their own hands. Recall that Poe wasn't the only one acting on their own accord, there were multiple attempts at desertion simply because members of the crew didn't have faith in Holdo's command.
That being said, Poe should be held accountable for the Resistance lives that were lost due to his plan. There is a possibility that the transports would have been detected regardless of whether the hacker was present or not, but the chain of events that Poe set into motion ensured the plan's failure. At that point, it wasn't his place to make the overarching decisions that effected the whole resistance. He was a fighter jockey without a fighter and should have cooled his jets.
Read below if you want a drawn out story of a real life situation tangentially connected to this topic.
In the end, issues like this really rely on success or failure. I myself have been in a remarkably similar situation as Poe in my military career. In my case however it was a massive blizzard rather than a pursuing armada. I was in the western part of Oklahoma with 5 foot snow drifts forming and snow streams flowing like sand falling through your hand across the more densely packed powder due to the wind. In the meantime, the command group in charge of the disaster relief was in the central part of the state with nary a fleck of white on the ground. There were no officers on site, just the guys that would be heading out into the dark to rescue the stranded folks who likely never experienced weather like that in their lives (it was certainly a first for me).
We were stationed in the local Highway Patrol office and they were giving us report after report of people asking for help. And yet I got a call from a Sergeant Major stating that everybody was to stand by and that the highway patrol was to pass the messages up to the National Guard who would then decide who to send out and then pass that message down again (this is the inefficient central command style I was talking about). We waited for a good hour while the HP looked at us wondering why we were even out there and a lot of the other Soldiers were getting antsy to get out there and do our jobs.
Finally, a call came in that 8 people were stranded on a back country road in a nearby town and that the snow was starting to pile past their windows. There were 4 children among them. At that point I said 'screw it' and told everybody that we were going to quickly drive out there, rescue those people, then quickly drive back before our command made a decision to send us out. We got out there, and we had to repeatedly back our LMTVs up and gun the motor to ram them forward in the snow. Eventually even that wasn't getting us anywhere so we had to get out and walk. Long story short, we found the family and the couple of guys who got stuck trying to rescue them, got them back to our vehicles, and promptly got both LMTVs stuck as well.
It was about that time I got a call from the CSM saying that they wanted to go with us out on a mission and I sheepishly had to explain what had happened. He told us that they would try to send help out but in the meantime I managed to find a house on a hill with a generator that we escorted the stranded folks to before a passing pump fire truck managed to dislodge one of our trucks and we went out to rescue another group (who wasn't actually there) and got stuck again for the night.
What's the point of this wall of text? I was expecting to at least get written up for disobeying orders. Heck, I expected to get busted down to SGT for it or even lower. Instead, the next month we all got called in front of the formation and had our Brigade Commander personally issue us our State Active Duty medals. Turns out the 8 people we rescued plus the handful of others that we had picked up on our way to our staging point made up the largest portion of the people rescued that night and saving 4 children made for really good press for the brass. I never heard anything about it again and I sure as heck didn't let curiosity goad me into bringing up the matter myself. In the end, luck gave me a successful mission and bad luck likely would have seen a much worse outcome for me. In the heat of things though, you sometimes have those kinds of decisions put before you and there's no easy or correct answer.
11 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:I’m going to talk to my friend who recently retired with the rank of commander from the USN to see what his reaction to Holdo/Poe is.
Just got off the phone with my friend who just saw TLJ (loved it). He has had over 20 years experience in USN, including combat command.
Unprompted he said “I loved the Admiral, she was a badass.” He disliked Poe, thought he was terrible. he said A CO only tells each person how their role fits in the current plan and that her response to Poe was totally correct. He thought Poe was lucky to only have been shot with a stun blaster after the mutiny.
So there’s that.
11 hours ago, Hobojebus said:No revolution has ever succeeded without a proper chain of command, in a fight a clear line of leadership is vital to keep discapline.
Berlin 89 
SCNR
11 hours ago, Babaganoosh said:How does the First Order find out about Holdo's cloaked transport evac plan?
Hint: Poe's bad grasp of opsec is involved
It's too bad the resistance didn't have AFN commercials...
Boy I've been out for so long it has been a long time since I seen those. I actually got excited when I started to hear a soundtrack from HAL0 2 in one of those commercials.
However for more explanation here is a good review, remember it is not the Medichlorians, it is the PORGS, they are the true power of the Force!
I have to wonder about the fandom background of the people who like TLJ vs. the people who don't. Personally, I grew into Star Wars after spending my childhood being a Trek fan. I never read much of the EU besides the materials that were in the games and the odd Wookieepedia article when that finally came out. Most of all, I was used to a universe where movies were frequently driven by different directors and so would jerk the universe in an entirely different direction based off their personal opinion of how things should go instead of trying to keep as stable a storyline as possible. Hey, Kirk had a brother once who died, but he came back. Never mind that other brother he had that also died of flying parasitic lilypads but never gets mentioned again. Continuity is for nerds anyway. But hey, speaking of siblings, let's give Spock an adopted sister who his **** of a father absolutely adores!
Yeah, I've had the JJverse foisted upon me with all of its car/motorcycle stunts and 90's music deus ex machina and now I've had an aptly named acronym of STD.
I guess after that kind of trauma, anything Disney disrupts is rather small potatoes in my mind and TLJ is a shining example of this. There's honestly nothing in the movie that rips at my soul quite as fiercely as the new Aquaman Klingons being in the canon universe.
2 hours ago, flyboymb said:I have to wonder about the fandom background of the people who like TLJ vs. the people who don't. Personally, I grew into Star Wars after spending my childhood being a Trek fan. I never read much of the EU besides the materials that were in the games and the odd Wookieepedia article when that finally came out. Most of all, I was used to a universe where movies were frequently driven by different directors and so would jerk the universe in an entirely different direction based off their personal opinion of how things should go instead of trying to keep as stable a storyline as possible. Hey, Kirk had a brother once who died, but he came back. Never mind that other brother he had that also died of flying parasitic lilypads but never gets mentioned again. Continuity is for nerds anyway. But hey, speaking of siblings, let's give Spock an adopted sister who his **** of a father absolutely adores!
Yeah, I've had the JJverse foisted upon me with all of its car/motorcycle stunts and 90's music deus ex machina and now I've had an aptly named acronym of STD.
I guess after that kind of trauma, anything Disney disrupts is rather small potatoes in my mind and TLJ is a shining example of this. There's honestly nothing in the movie that rips at my soul quite as fiercely as the new Aquaman Klingons being in the canon universe.
For my part, I grew up with Star Wars. Han, Luke, Leia, Lando, Chewie, etc were my childhood heroes. I played the West End Games RPG a lot with my friends (both as a player and a DM) and read everything Star Wars starting with the Thrawn Trilogy when it was the only books available. I was even a member of the Star Wars fan club (still has my old membership card in my wallet ). I really can't count the number of time I watched the Original Trilogy movies, enough that my family members can't stand them anymore. As for the prequel, I don't like them. I think the general story is good, but I don't like the dialogue and the execution of it. I personally think that the Phantom Menace would be a better movie (and more believable) if Anakin was a teenager (around 15-16 years old) instead of a kid.
Now come the sequel trilogy, and I can say that I really really love it! First time I saw it, I wasn't sure about Force Awaken, I left the theater wondering if I liked it or not. Then I went back with my girlfriend the next day and it started to grew on me. Once it came out in Blu-Ray, I watched it again and I loved it. Aand since then, with each viewing, I love it more, enough so that now Force Awaken is my second best Star Wars movie (second only to Empire Strike Back, and inside of me, I think that I prefer Episode 5 only because of Nostalgia and because I grew up with it).
As for The Last Jedi... I loved it! I mean, I really really loved it! I could not stop smiling during the entire movie. It felt really Star Wars to me. Then I saw all the hate and went back with my girlfriend and I still loved it! I'm going to see it for a third time with my girlfriend tonight and I can't wait. It's currently in my top 3 as best Star Wars movie and I can't wait for Episode 9!
33 minutes ago, Red Castle said:As for The Last Jedi... I loved it! I mean, I really really loved it! I could not stop smiling during the entire movie. It felt really Star Wars to me. Then I saw all the hate and went back with my girlfriend and I still loved it! I'm going to see it for a third time with my girlfriend tonight and I can't wait. It's currently in my top 3 as best Star Wars movie and I can't wait for Episode 9!
This guy gets it! I’m pretty much in the same camp. 70s kid love SW hate prequels love sequels.
Hey I just remembered something from ESB, one of the best if not the best SW film: remember the bombers? Yeah they were dropping bombs in space!!! How dumb right?!
Wrong. It was cool. Just like the Resistance bombers, they were cool too.
Edited by BlodVargarna