56 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:Come on, this movie even gave us the best score ever!
This!
Why do people hate TLJ? (Spoilers)
1 hour ago, Celestial Lizards said:Jeez, you really have a heart of stone, don't you?
Cadet, report to your commanding officer. You will be demoted to TIE/ln cleaning duty.
In all seriousness: this movie did way too much just for the laughs. Think of bb8 who produces more and more appendages and then slams his head in. That is just ridiculous, not funny. And that is just one example (see above). Think of reys training mistakes that angered the ridiculous nun aliens. And I know well that the humor in the OT was sometimes cheap or a bit off too, but it just didnt feel nearly as forced.
Actually, I thought TFA, despite its own problems, hit a good tone humorwise. But TLJ just didnt feel like star wars .
I love the conflict in Luke in that movie. The clash between the glorious faded organization of the Jedi and its failures upon modern times. Having Luke finally realize he can let go of it all is so satisfying. The force itself is enough. Double points when he explains that trying to uphold its values as its lone champion was the reason for what happened with Ben.
I'm sorry your childhood hero lived long enough to become the villain, but that tends to happen. He redeemed himself as the end!
2 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:Please tell me, because I honestly want to know: why do so many people hate such an amazing movie?
People are dumb.
1 hour ago, MaxPower said:Some of the problems with the movie for me:
"Yo momma"-insolent joke by poe. (Srsly? Yo momma jokes in Star wars?)
Forced jokes in almost every scene, and I mean stuff like "bb8 cant maneuver under a box" (but is fine at the controls of an AT-ST), Finn keeps tripping and stuff like that
Adding "Poor Oliver Twist Force Kids" and cute Animals into a lot of shots (thanks, Disney :-( )
A super boring chase scene between capitals.
- Srsly, why didn't the rebels spread out? The capital ship can be chased, all the while the others run off in a perpendicular angle. Is that too difficult as a strategy?
- Why didn't some star destroyers perform a micro-jump into THE STRAIGHT DIRECTION of the flagship?
Kylo-Rey romance (blargh!)
Leia Space Walk
The rebel comanders all not looking the part (nothing agains women as military leaders, don't get me wrong, but why does an admiral have to look like an opera singer with purple hair and her right hand so cowardish all the time?)
Hux is just... a Hitler parody by now?
Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.
The rey mirror scene with the odd voiceover.
Yoda... playing wise nut dumbledore for harry ... i mean luke.
Phasma was a letdown again. She should easily best finn and a mechanic by herself. She is discribed as a ferocious fighter...
Rose was too much of a whiny do-goodie to me.
The rebels being saved by sparklefoxies.
The nun thingies on the island... setup for cheap "oops I let it fall" jokes
Finn who knows where the comm unit is because he cleaned there (what kind of a lame running gag is that?)
Finn walking around in a leaking bacta suit and nobody giving a ****, just for the lols.
Maz taking a phone call in the middle of a fire fight which is casually dismissed as a "union dispute".
Poe can get away with anything (wasting fleet, mutiny etc).
... I could go on.
The main problem with the movie, is the fact that now, you have grown up, and at the end of the movie, you no longer have that sense of wonder you had when you were a kid and watched Star Wars for the first time.
It has nothing to do with the director, the story, the actors, it's just the fact that you are older.
10 minutes ago, MaxPower said:Cadet, report to your commanding officer. You will be demoted to TIE/ln cleaning duty.
In all seriousness: this movie did way too much just for the laughs. Think of bb8 who produces more and more appendages and then slams his head in. That is just ridiculous, not funny. And that is just one example (see above). Think of reys training mistakes that angered the ridiculous nun aliens. And I know well that the humor in the OT was sometimes cheap or a bit off too, but it just didnt feel nearly as forced.
Actually, I thought TFA, despite its own problems, hit a good tone humorwise. But TLJ just didnt feel like star wars .
Second time around it didn’t seem forced. I felt the same for TFA and upon future viewings it went away. Same it’s probably every other Star Wars movie.
Hate is a strong word. I don’t hate TLJ but I do think it’s the weakest entry into Star Wars from Disney by far.
The film drags out a space chase scene unnecessarily... I could have forgiven this if they weren’t so desperate to cram as much content and subplots as they could in and around the chase.
the cinematography as a whole was pretty flawed - pacing issues being a huge issue. The fact they tried to slam so many subplots in means none of them really get the attention they deserve. This leads to forgettable characters (i have no idea what on earth Del Toro’s character offers this film other than taking up an awkward space).
I had no issue with the major plot points really. I had issue with the implementation.
For me? The unnecessary deaths of Luke, both of his character and of The character. The lacklustre opening space battle, the big let down of the bombers. The casino. The reduction of the resistance to twentyish people...
It all seems so unnecessary. The (potentially) awesome mysteries set up by TFA regarding Luke’s disappearance, Rey’s ancestry, Snoke, etc were just discarded out of hand.
I didn’t like the continuity error in Rey’s vision of the destruction of the Academy and Ren/Luke’s version. I didn’t like the terrible background of the opening crawl. I don’t like the scale of the First Order or how easy it is for them to just walk across the galaxy. I don’t like that the Resistance doesn’t have a spaceship to its name anymore.
I also hated that Jess Pava wasn’t in it, though considering what happened to the rest of them it might be a good thing. I really wanted to see some cool dogfighting, or the bomber crew fighting bravely through like a scene from Memphis Belle or SOMETHING to make the ww2 homage in some way worthwhile. Instead I’m just left wishing the plot had gone a different way.
I still enjoyed the movie, but I don’t really have an overwhelming need to see the next part like I did with TFA.
25 minutes ago, Odanan said:People are dumb.
And some of them have the ability to objectively assess a movie, not just mindlessly fawning over any poorly-written schlock with Star Wars in the title.
Guys, I assure you my opinion has nothing to do with my age. As I said, I enjoyed TFA despite its flaws. More than the prequels, for sure.
I just think TLJ is a crap movie. And that is an original opinion, from day 1 (midnight viewing). I can understand some of the arguments in its defense. But I can just say: the OT, rogue one and TFA had a certain "star wars feel" for me the humor was a bit cocky, often charmingly naive. TLJ just felt forced. For me it had no lightness at all.
40 minutes ago, Odanan said:People are dumb.
While I sadly cant object fully to your statement, you should either know that there is no accounting for taste and people perceive art in various ways. Otherwise the category of dumb people includes you.
Edited by MaxPowerI question hate -- nerdrage on the internet is a tempest in a teapot.
I think people's reasons to dislike the movie will boil down to a handful of reasons:
(1) They don't like the directions the characters have gone (e.g. Luke portrayal). These are artistic choices; if you don't agree with them, you don't. I wouldn't have chosen the direction they took for Luke, personally, but I can respect it as a choice.
(2) Plot logic. This is one of two areas where the movie breaks down for me personally -- when events don't make particular logical sense (the "why didn't they just hyperspace ahead of the Rebels", etc), or don't seem to fit well in the overall narrative structure (the Canto Bight arc for me).
(3) Jarred out of disbelief. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is part of the contract of movie watching, especially in fantasy films like Star Wars. When the audience feels that contract has broken, they'll be frustrated -- and like the first item, this is pretty subjective. TLJ has a number of scenes that potentially break disbelief; the ones that do it for me personally are the "can you hear me now" Poe jokes at the beginning, gravity bombs in space, and Mary Poppins Organa.
I'm in the "good not great, like it don't love it" category FWIW.
5 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:I question hate -- nerdrage on the internet is a tempest in a teapot.
I think people's reasons to dislike the movie will boil down to a handful of reasons:
(1) They don't like the directions the characters have gone (e.g. Luke portrayal). These are artistic choices; if you don't agree with them, you don't. I wouldn't have chosen the direction they took for Luke, personally, but I can respect it as a choice.
(2) Plot logic. This is one of two areas where the movie breaks down for me personally -- when events don't make particular logical sense (the "why didn't they just hyperspace ahead of the Rebels", etc), or don't seem to fit well in the overall narrative structure (the Canto Bight arc for me).
(3) Jarred out of disbelief. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is part of the contract of movie watching, especially in fantasy films like Star Wars. When the audience feels that contract has broken, they'll be frustrated -- and like the first item, this is pretty subjective. TLJ has a number of scenes that potentially break disbelief; the ones that do it for me personally are the "can you hear me now" Poe jokes at the beginning, gravity bombs in space, and Mary Poppins Organa.
I'm in the "good not great, like it don't love it" category FWIW.
Well put, sir.
8 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:I question hate -- nerdrage on the internet is a tempest in a teapot.
I think people's reasons to dislike the movie will boil down to a handful of reasons:
(1) They don't like the directions the characters have gone (e.g. Luke portrayal). These are artistic choices; if you don't agree with them, you don't. I wouldn't have chosen the direction they took for Luke, personally, but I can respect it as a choice.
(2) Plot logic. This is one of two areas where the movie breaks down for me personally -- when events don't make particular logical sense (the "why didn't they just hyperspace ahead of the Rebels", etc), or don't seem to fit well in the overall narrative structure (the Canto Bight arc for me).
(3) Jarred out of disbelief. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is part of the contract of movie watching, especially in fantasy films like Star Wars. When the audience feels that contract has broken, they'll be frustrated -- and like the first item, this is pretty subjective. TLJ has a number of scenes that potentially break disbelief; the ones that do it for me personally are the "can you hear me now" Poe jokes at the beginning, gravity bombs in space, and Mary Poppins Organa.
I'm in the "good not great, like it don't love it" category FWIW.
Me, too. I don't mind the directions the characters have gone, with the exception of Phasma's pointless death. Build her up as a bad-***, flesh her out with a novel and comic series, then a space janitor bests her in combat? Of course, Boba Fett was taken out accidentally by a blind guy...
What I dislike are the gaping plot holes and profoundly lazy writing. Nothing the Resistance or First Order did made much sense.
Suspension of disbelief? Not an issue after Starkiller Base.
Edited by Keoki
1 hour ago, Captain Pellaeon said:This is like asking, why did the japanese begin Kamikaze attacks in late '44, why not do it from the start? If all 400 planes attacking Pearl Harbour would've all use their ammo then slam into something valuable, they could've caused so much more damage, right?
Circumstances are different, equipment available is different, times are different.
Okay, I'm getting tired of this arguement that they just use suidice attacks earlier. It's not just for this movie, but it shows up a lot when people are like "Wow, that one attack was effective, therefore suicide attacks on the whole are effective"
No, they demonstrably aren't. Suicide attacks have never turned the tide of any war for 1 very good reason. The best case scenario for a suicide attack is to trade resources. Conversely a conventional attack nets you more than just destroyed enemy ships, it nets you experienced pilots/crews/soldiers and still operational equipment of your own to conduct further attacks. Suicife attacks are actually more costly than conventional ones.
The Last Jedi even shows why it's own suicide attack is basically pointless as it doesn't stop the first order. All the Resistance ends up doing is trading some resources for the First Order's resources. Well, guess what, the First Order has a lot more. Simply trading isn't going to win, you need the people and their skills and experience or soon your just going to have a handful of survivors floating away on a beat up old ship full of delicious Porgs...
10 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:(2) Plot logic. This is one of two areas where the movie breaks down for me personally -- when events don't make particular logical sense (the "why didn't they just hyperspace ahead of the Rebels", etc), or don't seem to fit well in the overall narrative structure (the Canto Bight arc for me).
(3) Jarred out of disbelief. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is part of the contract of movie watching, especially in fantasy films like Star Wars. When the audience feels that contract has broken, they'll be frustrated -- and like the first item, this is pretty subjective. TLJ has a number of scenes that potentially break disbelief; the ones that do it for me personally are the "can you hear me now" Poe jokes at the beginning, gravity bombs in space, and Mary Poppins Organa.
I'm in the "good not great, like it don't love it" category FWIW.
I didn’t mind the Poe humor early on, but Mary Poppins was complete and utter garbage for the film. Either have her not sucked out of the bridge because (insert clever reason here) or let her go.
i just took the gravity bombs as they had a downward trajectory from a motor as opposed to pure gravity, but that was me.
In terms of First Order weaponry and tactics.... Kylo killed the ability of the Resistance to offer a fighter screen. Why did they need to pull back their fighters “we can’t cover you that far away” when there was nothing to cover them from? Rather than let the big ships pot shot at the ships at range I’d have sent in all the SFs with missiles and gone all in on shredding the unarmed cruiser.
I would have been ok if it was Kylo who shot the missiles on the bridge (after all plot device is he’s the only one with ordnance and he spent it) .... maybe. But by putting missiles on the SFs in the dogfight too it made it a little trickier.
i would have skipped the entire Canto story and said Finn uses an escape pod with Rose to intentionally get tractored aboard the Supremacy, and then works in the story of breaking out / disabling the tracking.
which leads me to my next point - don’t drag the movie out about how the whole fate of the resistance depends on making a hyperspace jump untracked and then say just kidding we really planned on going to the salt mines over here all along... lazy story telling in my mind.
5 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:I didn’t mind the Poe humor early on, but Mary Poppins was complete and utter garbage for the film. Either have her not sucked out of the bridge because (insert clever reason here) or let her go.
i just took the gravity bombs as they had a downward trajectory from a motor as opposed to pure gravity, but that was me.
In terms of First Order weaponry and tactics.... Kylo killed the ability of the Resistance to offer a fighter screen. Why did they need to pull back their fighters “we can’t cover you that far away” when there was nothing to cover them from? Rather than let the big ships pot shot at the ships at range I’d have sent in all the SFs with missiles and gone all in on shredding the unarmed cruiser.
I would have been ok if it was Kylo who shot the missiles on the bridge (after all plot device is he’s the only one with ordnance and he spent it) .... maybe. But by putting missiles on the SFs in the dogfight too it made it a little trickier.
i would have skipped the entire Canto story and said Finn uses an escape pod with Rose to intentionally get tractored aboard the Supremacy, and then works in the story of breaking out / disabling the tracking.
which leads me to my next point - don’t drag the movie out about how the whole fate of the resistance depends on making a hyperspace jump untracked and then say just kidding we really planned on going to the salt mines over here all along... lazy story telling in my mind.
I love how many people talk about level bombing in space being a stupid idea for this movie, spoiler, TLJ isn't the first movie in the series to do it....
2 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:If anything, we should have a petition to remove Jar-Jar from canon!
I'd argue that the existence Jar Jar has made the world a better place. He's kinda terrible, but we'd all be worse off if we didn't have Jar Jar to mock and make jokes about. The positive impact on the culture alone makes the Phantom Menace the best of the prequels. For example, where would we be without good-bad movies to snark about? These things, like Jar Jar, need to exist.
1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:Gold Squadron brought this up, why didn’t they just sacrifice one of their ships to blow up the Death Star? Death Star II? Droid Control Ship? Starkiller Base? Just Hyperspace through that sucker.
I think it mostly wouldn't work due to scale. The Raddus was a fairly sizable capital ship and, as big as the Supremacy was, it wasn't nearly as big as something like a Death Star.
Putting as powerful a hyperdrive on as big an asteroid as you could manage makes some degree of sense to me, but I'm not that bothered about it.
8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:
I love how many people talk about level bombing in space being a stupid idea for this movie, spoiler, TLJ isn't the first movie in the series to do it....
The rule of cool applies here. It was cool in ESB. It’s ridiculous in TLJ. In ESB they’re trying to beat the grass to startle the snake. In TLJ they are trying to lose ships by flying straight and level in a combat zone.
1 minute ago, Estarriol said:The rule of cool applies here. It was cool in ESB. It’s ridiculous in TLJ. In ESB they’re trying to beat the grass to startle the snake. In TLJ they are trying to lose ships by flying straight and level in a combat zone.
Or trying to do a bombing run to kill a dreadnought if you wanted a more honest phrasing of events. That sounds kinda cool.
3 hours ago, MaxPower said:Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.
If you read the Extended Universe books before they were nerfed, this is not out of character for Luke. Replace Jacen Solo for Ben and it's pretty much what happened in that universe.
41 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:
I love how many people talk about level bombing in space being a stupid idea for this movie, spoiler, TLJ isn't the first movie in the series to do it....
Funny you quoted me, when I actually explained that the bombing wasn’t an issue for me...
35 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:
Or trying to do a bombing run to kill a dreadnought if you wanted a more honest phrasing of events. That sounds kinda cool.
A bunch of Y-wings doing a Torpedo strike would’ve been cool. The Resistance bombers reminded me of Rimmer’s ‘daylight charge across the minefield’ tactic.
I don't hate the movie as some do, but it is a movie of blown opportunities in my opinion. Besides the usual stuff people complain about, I did not like how the Kylo + Rey (Reylo) thing ended up. You had them team up for a brief second to fight Snoke and his Praetorian guard. Probably one of the top 5 best sequences in all of SWs, and then just when you thought they were going to join forces.... No, Rey can't be tempted by the darkside and Kylo can't go to the good. They really had some good chemistry in their scenes and the movie was setting it up so well. It would have been so much more interesting and a break from the regular SW mold to have your thought to be hero, join the darkside. Then end the movie there. That's a cliffhanger and gives you a really good story line to finish up in the 3rd movie. That gives Luke a means of really redeeming himself as he tries to bring Rey or even Kylo back to the light side.
All we have now is just Kylo as the bad guy and a really small rebellion force. There is no intrigue there.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding why TLJ is "divisive". Well, I "understand" what points people have to be upset about, but I don't really empathize with them or whatever.
I can get how you might say that say, it wasn't what you were looking for in the movie, or it isn't what you expected but it just seems weird to be "angry" about it. But I had zero expectations from the film. I was already thinking it would be "bad", and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. Like, I thought the constant jokes would get to me, but I laughed every time. Loved the action sequences. I liked the characters as they exist in the film.
If you've seen nothing but TFA and the OT, this movie is perfectly fine. It imparts on to you all the knowledge you need to know to understand it's themes and goals. For the rest of the stuff, you need to go back to your ol' master Yoda and remember the adage "You must unlearn what you have learned". All your other expectations, assumptions, presumptions, it's all nonsense. It was fluff in the wind. It didn't exist. In fact, one of the major themes of the film is about the hubris of buying into a legend. And I was perfectly okay taking that back seat. The hyperspace jump? Great sequence. Visually stunning. All that other baggage? Extra nonsense. Trying to nitpick a fictional, impossible thing which is only explained in sparse words like "calculations" and "lightspeed".