Curious on the timing for this one.

SLAM is a maneuver on your dial, so it can trigger lightning reflexes, that part is obvious. Issue is timing between Adv Slam and the stress from flipping around 180.

SLAM is the maneuver, so once you have finished it you have two triggers for "after maneuver" essentially, just one is specifically a SLAM maneuver but still a maneuver.

Am i missing something and the LR has to go first, stressing you out and denying the action, or would you be able to AdvSLAM action -> LR flip around get stressed?

My understanding of the SLAM rule is that you fully complete the maneuver, assign the weapons disabled token, then the SLAM action is complete. After that, Advanced SLAM will trigger--not after completing the maneuver, but after the entire SLAM action is completed. With the same logic behind why Karsabi can't use Advanced SLAM if he takes the Stress to discard the Weapons Disabled token, I'd argue that using Lighting Reflexes would assign the stress before the SLAM action completes, and thus you'll be stressed when you'd want to perform the ASLAM free action.

*edit* possibly obviated by a FAQ ruling per @digitalbusker below.

@theBitterFig I'd be right there with you, but we have a FAQ ruling that "after action" and "after maneuver" are considered to be the same timing window for SLAM actions. (FAQ 4.4 p7, SLAM timing)

Karsabi cant use it because the Weapons Disabled is part of the slam itself, so he absolutely has to take it before finishing SLAM to trigger Adv SLAM.

Actually didnt notice that blip on the faq digitalbusker pointed out:
"If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action"

Which would indicate LR and AdvSLAM are the same timing window and would allow the action prior to flipping around +stress.

wow thats a fuzzy window....fuzzy enough for me to not try it lol....
Rereading the SLAM rule card i felt like i answered my own question, since its still doing stuff after the maneuver. but that faq....wtf ffg lol now im confused

5 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

@theBitterFig I'd be right there with you, but we have a FAQ ruling that "after action" and "after maneuver" are considered to be the same timing window for SLAM actions. (FAQ 4.4 p7, SLAM timing)

It's not in red so it must have been added to the FAQ previously.

Given that LR says you receive the stress "after" the check pilot stress step, then there is no grey area.
It should work as follows:
1) Reveal Dial
2) Execute Maneuver
3) Advance Slam
4) IF the Slam was not red (required to use LR):
A) free Action
B) LR
----OR----
A) LR
B) free Action
5) Move on to check pilot stress
6) receive Stress from LR after check pilot stress.

Don't forget that the free action needs to be on the action bar.

But you could give your ACSW a one time pseudo-k turn, reload combo.

actually i'm not sold on this because for me its like follows:
1 maneuver
2 action -> slam
3 slam concists of:
a) move
b) check pilot stress
c) cleanup
4 you decide to use Lightning Reflexes
5 slam now looks as follows:
i) move your ship
ii) LR triggers, turn ship 180 degrees
iii) check pilot stress
iiii) LR stress triggers after iii)
iiiii) cleanup
now the slam action is complete and adv slam triggers but won't work because you are already stressed.

It's wonky AF because Lightning Reflexes was written under the old rules, where Check Pilot Stress wasn't part of the manoeuvre. LR needs errata to work properly under the new rules, so however it's ruled now there will be some kind of wonkiness to it.

Based on how the cards are worded and how one actually performs a SLAM action based on the reference card, it seems to me that you would complete your first maneuver, choose the slam action, execute that maneuver, trigger lightning reflexes, assign a stress token as part of LR, assign the weapons disabled token from the SLAM action, and then reach the trigger for Advanced SLAM. Because, at this point, you are stressed Advanced SLAM passes you a free action on your action bar but you are prevented from performing actions due to the fact that you are stressed.

Seems relatively clear cut, LR triggers after executing a maneuver and the SLAM Action only resolves (and thus triggers Advanced SLAM) after assigning the weapons disabled token which is a separate step after executing a maneuver that is not an "after executing a maneuver" trigger (the reference lists it clearly as a separate instruction that is not directly linked to any of the previous instructions). So, in this way, if you assign the Weapons Disabled token you've missed your opportunity to resolve LR.

Logically, everything you said makes perfect sense and I completely agree with your interpretation of the rules.

Unfortunately, somebody at FFG decided to add this little nugget to the FAQ that messes up the whole issue.

Quote

SLA M Timing
If an effect triggers "after performing an action" or "after executing a maneuver," these effects occur at the same time after a ship performs a SLAM action.

Which means Lightning Reflexes and Advanced SLAM trigger at the same time, even though you have not actually completed the action until you have assigned the weapons disabled token.

2 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Logically, everything you said makes perfect sense and I completely agree with your interpretation of the rules.

Unfortunately, somebody at FFG decided to add this little nugget to the FAQ that messes up the whole issue.

Which means Lightning Reflexes and Advanced SLAM trigger at the same time, even though you have not actually completed the action until you have assigned the weapons disabled token.

yep, I warned people this little snippet was going to start causing all kinds of fun.

Since both cards LR and AS now occupy the same timing window (due to the FAQ) it is the card owners choice to which to activate first.

Note that taking this down to a level of assigning the physical token from an action, etc. as an interrupt is taking the mechanics into a level of minutia that is beyond entertaining. Lets just leave it at some things (like placing the token after an action) are just part of the action itself and not a separate step if we can please.

4 hours ago, joeshmoe554 said:

Logically, everything you said makes perfect sense and I completely agree with your interpretation of the rules.

Unfortunately, somebody at FFG decided to add this little nugget to the FAQ that messes up the whole issue.

Which means Lightning Reflexes and Advanced SLAM trigger at the same time, even though you have not actually completed the action until you have assigned the weapons disabled token.

There's no mess here at all. The FAQ states that you trigger effects like Lightning Reflexes and Adv SLAM after you complete the SLAM action, and that includes assigning the token. So you SLAM, assign the WD token, then trigger Lightning Reflexes and/or Adv SLAM if you can.

Be aware that if you choose a red maneuver as your SLAM action, then you'll be making Lightning Reflexes and Adv SLAM redundant because Lightning Reflexes needs a white or green maneuver, and the stress token assigned during the SLAM maneuver will mean no action from Adv SLAM.

The only problem here is the outdated sequencing on Lightning Reflexes. It needs to be updated.

The only "mess" is if you dont read that faq snippet it doesnt work, because "after maneuver" is technically in the middle of the SLAM action if you only read the SLAM card. You perform a maneuver, then assign the disabled token, then you have finished SLAM and may AdvSlam

If not for that FAQ, LR would trigger before the weapons disabled token pops up. But because of the FAQ, nothing triggers off that maneuver until after the disabled token is assigned (which is also when AdvSlam triggers).

LR is the only rule i can think of where this is actually a problem though. All other "after maneuver" effects that would matter would be things like kanan clearing stress before the AdvSLAM action...but he'd do that whether it happens first or same timing window anyway.

Regardless the FAQ makes it clear it is possible. Even if its ... weird...

Sorry to drag this up again. But it seems there general agreement that with advanced SLAM and LR on a gunboat you could:

do a 3 straight,

SLAM a 3 straight

advanced SLAM an action

trigger LR to turn 180

assign a weapons disabled and a stress?

I don't think there's any consensus at all because

On 1/5/2018 at 10:21 AM, thespaceinvader said:

It's wonky AF because Lightning Reflexes was written under the old rules, where Check Pilot Stress wasn't part of the manoeuvre. LR needs errata to work properly under the new rules, so however it's ruled now there will be some kind of wonkiness to it.

Lightning Reflexes straight-up doesn't work as written at the moment, because it requires its effect to happen before its trigger. It needs errating to update it to work with the TFA rules.