10 hours ago, ABXY said:

I'm personally in favour of "Primary only" but another compromise-level option could be "When attacking a target in your primary firing arc..."

Still allows missiles/torps (and even turrets) but not if she's running away.

I kinda like my errata more (I mean, of course I do), but this would also be a very welcome change. Combine with the "TLT only shoot twice in your firing arc" and we're golden.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why does it matter if it‘s MUCH (!) better than other ordnance?

Talent Diversity! That's borrowing a term from the devs at Heroes of the Storm (probably other games, too, but this is the one I play). Anyhow, they don't like it when one option at a particular level is the single, obvious best option. So they'll often do small tweaks to get things back in line. It works better there, since the numbers are bigger and there can be smaller changes, and it's always going to be easier to turn balance-dials in an online video game than in a physical miniatures game.

However, I've been riding hard on "5-point harpoons" because I think that makes things an actual choice for listbuilding. They'd be an interesting choice against Homing, since now they'd both be the same cost for the same damage. The extra damage on a crit is comparable to the prevention of spending Evade tokens, and then you have to decide whether you want to risk splash. They'd be an interesting choice against Concussion, since they'd actually be a point more expensive for their statistically higher dice rolls and the condition which usually produces an extra damage on the target. Cruise are there for when you really want to live or die by good dial choices. And Harpoon would still likely be affordable enough to keep in most lists, so we wouldn't just get overrun by Wookiees.

At 4 points however, they're the obvious default choice. We know this by the fact that pretty much every single Missileboat is running Harpoons, and no one runs any other sort of Missile or Torpedo. Stealth Device shows up more on Generic Missileboats than Concussion, Cruise, Homing, Ion Pulse combined.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure. I‘ll ignore then that squads with only Cruise had 1% higher winpercentage in Vassal league compared to only Harpoons. Who needs data when we have feelings and popular opinions.

Humm you are aware that many players on Vassal are measuring their range and maneuvers on their computer screen? Much easier to pull off a cruise that way... Ever since i learned about that trick, Vassal's data have lost any kind of credibility to my eyes. So does the league.

Currently on list juggler Harpoons are the best upgrade (all categories). Cruises are in 50th position...

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Humm you are aware that many players on Vassal are measuring their range and maneuvers on their computer screen? Much easier to pull off a cruise that way... Ever since i learned about that trick, Vassal's data have lost any kind of credibility to my eyes. So does the league.

Currently on list juggler Harpoons are the best upgrade (all categories). Cruises are in 50th position...

So your point is that 181 games (and that‘s a lot!) were more cheated to success compared to harpoons, and that‘s why you can dismiss it?

Because my point is that while Harpoons are clearly just better, Cruise are still much closer than this thread pretends.

„Solving“, that means probably nerfing, harpoons won‘t make the game better. For various reasons, but among them that they served as very valuable proof of concept. Miranda already used a lot of Homing in the past (every third build!), but now Harpoons proved for everyone that ordnance with double mods is absolutely worth it. Even removing Harpoons entirely would not just reset the game, because now we are better aware of what ordnance can do. Or are you honestly arguing that the one point difference to homing is so incredibly crucial in making or breaking the builds? (It is for 3pqd and other imperial builds, but not for rebels or scum)

6 hours ago, Thormind said:

Humm you are aware that many players on Vassal are measuring their range and maneuvers on their computer screen? Much easier to pull off a cruise that way... Ever since i learned about that trick, Vassal's data have lost any kind of credibility to my eyes. So does the league.

Currently on list juggler Harpoons are the best upgrade (all categories). Cruises are in 50th position...

I’m surprised a significant number people would bother to do this since it doesn’t translate to playing IRL (though I’m not sure what “many” actually means). I’ll add that knowing the math behind maneuverin makes it pretty unnecessary to do anyway, and most good players are pretty dang precise because they know it regardless. Hopefully it’s not that many in reality but my point is I think the data is valid regardless since it would mean that cruise missiles have the same potential in very precise hands, but I doubt that there’s enough people doing this that it’s affecting the data. It would only have to be people with cruise missiles taking advantage of it to actually skew the data.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Because my point is that while Harpoons are clearly just better, Cruise are still much closer than this thread pretends.

I think it's because of how people perceive the movement restrictions.

Whether it's fully true or not, I think people tend to feel like there's more skill involved in getting off a successful Cruise volley. Likewise, because the defender has knowledge of how the attacker has to fly, this puts more power in the hands of someone avoiding the missiles. Folks might be overestimating their level of control. But with Cruise, I think people have the perception that if they get well-nuked, it's more because they screwed up their own moves, and better flying could have prevented it. That's kinda true against any arc-based weapon, but I think the effect is exaggerated with Cruise.

16 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

So your point is that 181 games (and that‘s a lot!) were more cheated to success compared to harpoons, and that‘s why you can dismiss it?

Because my point is that while Harpoons are clearly just better, Cruise are still much closer than this thread pretends.

„Solving“, that means probably nerfing, harpoons won‘t make the game better. For various reasons, but among them that they served as very valuable proof of concept. Miranda already used a lot of Homing in the past (every third build!), but now Harpoons proved for everyone that ordnance with double mods is absolutely worth it. Even removing Harpoons entirely would not just reset the game, because now we are better aware of what ordnance can do. Or are you honestly arguing that the one point difference to homing is so incredibly crucial in making or breaking the builds? (It is for 3pqd and other imperial builds, but not for rebels or scum)

We dont know how many players are cheating but we know for sure that some are. From what i heard from many sources the numbers seems to be high. Even if there was only a few, it still makes the data unreliable.

We have a databank from real life events with officials and reliable sources. Its very hard to cheat in RL and if someone succeed its certainly not to a point where they can manage to precisely measure maneuver distances. That databank shows us a huge gap between harpoons and other types of missiles. If the numbers from the Vassal league are so different from the RL ones, just that should indicate something...

The difference between homing and harpoons is not just 1 pts (i assume you are talking about the cost here or the dmg?). Homing: 1 pts more expensive, the ability to deny evade is only worth it if your opponent is using those tokens, max 4 dmg (not counting other abilities/upgrades). Harpoons: 1 pts cheaper, the ability works vs any ship and is just more effective vs those flying in formation, high probability of doing 5 dmg and/or losing an action.

There was no proof needed that fully moded missiles were worth it. Miranda wasnt using missiles because bombs were clearly supperior (for her). There is also a limit on the amount of points that could/should be invested in her. The best ordnance ship (JMK) was not using missiles simply because it did not have the upgrade slot. Most other ships able to carry homers were not top tiers.

You seem to completly ignore how important the meta is to evaluate the potential of an upgrade. We have 2 new ships which are extremly effective with missiles in the Scurrg and the Gunboat. Remove those 2 ships and much less people would be talking about harpoons. Look at one of the best build at the moment: triple Nu with Quickdraw. Try to replace the harpoons with homing. Suddently Quickdraw is much less threathning because he loses VI and FCS or LWF. Its not just 1 pts of difference. Its 1 pts x 3... Now lets look at some other top builds and see what happens if you switch :

Miranda/Nym: 2 point less means sacrificing one of Miranda's bomb

2 Rho + Kylo: 2 Point less means no advanced optics on Kylo

triple Scurrg (took a huge drop recently but still good IMO): There is many way to build that archetype but in all cases you are sacrificing a lot by removing 2-3 points: an autoblaster turret, a crew like Boba or Zuckuss, some crack shots, the title on one of the ship, a bomblet generator, etc.

To sum it up when you switch harpoons for homers, you take a missile thats less effective in itself vs a lot (if not most) of builds and you quite likely have less points for upgrades that are making a big difference in your squad effectiveness most of the time.

Make them unique :-P

12 hours ago, AlexW said:

I’m surprised a significant number people would bother to do this since it doesn’t translate to playing IRL (though I’m not sure what “many” actually means). I’ll add that knowing the math behind maneuverin makes it pretty unnecessary to do anyway, and most good players are pretty dang precise because they know it regardless. Hopefully it’s not that many in reality but my point is I think the data is valid regardless since it would mean that cruise missiles have the same potential in very precise hands, but I doubt that there’s enough people doing this that it’s affecting the data. It would only have to be people with cruise missiles taking advantage of it to actually skew the data.

It makes them win the league tournement? Knowing the maths behind maneuvering is not the same as precisely measuring where you are going to be. Most top players are good at evaluating ships mouvement but they still bump once in a wile or end up being just slightly in/out of arcs. And we are talking of a few players here, far from the majority. For the rest of the argument, i invite you to read my prior post just up there.

I don’t get the harpoon hate.

Its made arcs matter again

its made dials matter again

it’s given non bomb small base ships a revival

its moved the game back to something seemingly Star Wars again

almost as clubs and podcasts that have bothered to talk about the ebb and flow of interest in the game have reported an upswing in the attendance

its helped contain wookies, Biggs, condition and token swapping, etc

and the condition is as much a reward as a punishment... during regionals I put a double harpooned QD into the middle of an opponents 4 ship squad... he super paid more for that next crit than I did.

I think harpoons have restored actual two player gameplay to X-Wing... tactics and predictive spatial thinking is back... and an small lunatic fringe can’t help but dislike that... it’s not like Kanan and Nym are gone... you just have to let the other player participate now and the easy button is gone and some of you can’t handle that.

I don't think there's much to get, really. No one* has ever really liked reliable 4+ dice attacks and inelegant design mechanics like the Harpooned condition card. And now those features are spammable in a list.

*ish

14 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I don’t get the harpoon hate.

Its made arcs matter again

its made dials matter again .

Yeah, I get this argument but I'm also torn on it. It took a very undercosted missile to make them relevant again (IE they had to break something to make it competitive with the other broken stuff), so it's only effective and relevant for ships that can carry it. Not to mention two pilots that CAN carry it have all the other "broken" stuff as well that has nothing to with arcs.

I also think that we'll look back on this wave and point to harpoons as a big factor, but not the sole factor, in making "basic" three attack dice ship irrelevant. That train was pulling out of the station, but there's no way to stop it now.

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Yeah, I get this argument but I'm also torn on it. It took a very undercosted missile to make them relevant again (IE they had to break something to make it competitive with the other broken stuff), so it's only effective and relevant for ships that can carry it. Not to mention that two of those ships that CAN carry it have all the other "broken" stuff as well.

I also think that we'll look back on this wave and point to harpoons as a big factor, but not the sole factor, in making "basic" three attack dice ship irrelevant. That train was pulling out of the station, but there's no way to stop it now.

Could not disagree more.

Because 3 dice attack ships that can arc dodge are poison to harpoon carriers... especially PS 7 or higher

if all the broken OP junk was rock and harpoons are the paper the stuff you think is dead is now finally a legitimate scissor option. Harpoons are not the nail in the coffin... they’re the key out of the cell.

40 minutes ago, Thormind said:

The difference between homing and harpoons is not just 1 pts (i assume you are talking about the cost here or the dmg?). Homing: 1 pts more expensive, the ability to deny evade is only worth it if your opponent is using those tokens, max 4 dmg (not counting other abilities/upgrades). Harpoons: 1 pts cheaper, the ability works vs any ship and is just more effective vs those flying in formation, high probability of doing 5 dmg and/or losing an action.

This. I didn't run the math yet, but I believe that the high probability of doing extra damage (i.e. 5 hits before green dice) is actually a big deal as it pushes the probability of killing a ship in one round significantly higher (and as a result pushes a lot of ships/squads out of meta).

20 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Its made arcs matter again

its made dials matter again

it’s given non bomb small base ships a revival

its moved the game back to something seemingly Star Wars again

almost as clubs and podcasts that have bothered to talk about the ebb and flow of interest in the game have reported an upswing in the attendance

its helped contain wookies, Biggs, condition and token swapping, etc

Correlation doesn't always mean causation. I think that the effect of FAQ on the things that you mentioned here is much higher than the influence from harpoons.

4 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Because 3 dice attack ships that can arc dodge are poison to harpoon carriers... especially PS 7 or higher

Which is fine if it wasn't for the fact that the same ships that could turret attack or bomb those counters to the ground can also take the harpoons.

Harpoons do not need to be nerfed, and that is coming from someone who tries them a lot and never really gets them to work. I'll waste 8-12 points putting Harpoons in a list and get little to no damage out of them. They really aren't an issue. I find that people just like to gripe about stuff. How about we nerf attack dice? We can switch from a D8 to a D20 with 10 blanks, 2 hits, 1 crit, 1 focus and 6 eyeballs with tears coming out of them. If you roll 2 or more cying eyes you immedietly suspend game play and compose a post about how this-and-that needs to be nerfed.

1 minute ago, Pooleman said:

Harpoons do not need to be nerfed, and that is coming from someone who tries them a lot and never really gets them to work.

I'd be more impressed by that statement if you were someone who tried them a lot and always got them to work.

36 minutes ago, Thormind said:

We dont know how many players are cheating but we know for sure that some are. From what i heard from many sources the numbers seems to be high. That makes the data unreliable. No amount of argument will change that fact.

The point was that you claim a difference in cheating between Harpoons and Cruise. And that few cheaters are not able to skew such a large number by that much. You are saying that a very large amount of Cruise - and only Cruise! - players are cheating.

40 minutes ago, Thormind said:

We have a databank from real life events with officials and reliable sources. Its very hard to cheat in RL and if someone succeed its certainly not to a point where they can manage to precisely measure maneuver distances. That databank shows us a huge gap between harpoons and other types of missiles. If the numbers from the Vassal league are so different from the RL ones, just that should indicate something...

I don‘t think you understand metawing and the value of the vassal league data enough to make these claims. Meta wing aggregated swiss ranks with some few lists. I look at 955 individual games. Big difference.

47 minutes ago, Thormind said:

The difference between homing and harpoons is not just 1 pts (i assume you are talking about the cost here or the dmg?). Homing: 1 pts more expensive, the ability to deny evade is only worth it if your opponent is using those tokens, max 4 dmg (not counting other abilities/upgrades). Harpoons: 1 pts cheaper, the ability works vs any ship and is just slightly more effective vs those flying in formation, high probability of doing 5 dmg and/or losing an action.

1pt meant 1 point of cost. And I, too, mentioned the evade, which is functionally equal to a 5th damage. Of course only if evades are frequent enough. But in most cases you will get 4hits out of both. The condition can also be negative, and often is. While the action denial is basically non-existant, by the way.

51 minutes ago, Thormind said:

There was no proof needed that fully moded missiles were worth it. Miranda wasnt using missiles because bombs were clearly supperior (for her). There is also a limit on the amount of points that could/should be invested in her. The best ordnance ship (JMK) was not using missiles simply because it did not have the upgrade slot. Most other ships able to carry homers were not top tiers.

I think you should take a close look at metawing before making such a claim about Miranda. Already 1/3 was using homing missiles. Now many are using Harpoons. Of course paying one point less is better, but it was already being used and got now made very popular.

54 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You seem to completly ignore how important the meta is to evaluate the potential of an upgrade.

Why do you think that?

Just now, __underscore__ said:

I'd be more impressed by that statement if you were someone who tried them a lot and always got them to work.

The point is that its all circumstantial. People gripe about what hurts them and praise what is effective for them.

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

This. I didn't run the math yet, but I believe that the high probability of doing extra damage (i.e. 5 hits before green dice) is actually a big deal as it pushes the probability of killing a ship in one round significantly higher (and as a result pushes a lot of ships/squads out of meta).

Correlation doesn't always mean causation. I think that the effect of FAQ on the things that you mentioned here is much higher than the influence from harpoons.

I think you should look at the top lists in between the FAQ and most recent Wave... because top players didn’t agree with you... after harpoons hit they still didn’t agree... it took not only harpoons, but reloading slamming harpoon platforms to right the ship for there to be a set of meta lists that brought back fundamental X-Wing.

Thats sad, but at least the treatment is finally here for serious mechanical infections that have been killing the game.

3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I'd be more impressed by that statement if you were someone who tried them a lot and always got them to work.

I've also been blasted by PLENTY of harpoons and still do not see an issue.

1 minute ago, Pooleman said:

The point is that its all circumstantial. People gripe about what hurts them and praise what is effective for them.

...and don't praise which isn't effective for them, even if it's very effective for others.

3 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

I've also been blasted by PLENTY of harpoons and still do not see an issue.

Your magnanimity truly knows no bounds.

On 22.12.2017 at 3:37 PM, GreenDragoon said:

Metawing has 282 Homing missiles on 830 Mirandas from Wave 9 to Wave 11, so over a third took non-bomb ordnance

@Thormind

I had made that point about Miranda and Homing already 3Weeks ago.

Just now, __underscore__ said:

Your magnanimity truly knows no bounds.

I agree. I am awesome.

11 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Which is fine if it wasn't for the fact that the same ships that could turret attack or bomb those counters to the ground can also take the harpoons.

What does that matter? They’re their own counter too? That’s a good thing. They’re still going to die to their own hard counter. If that hard counter is common enough the broken stuff is no longer the right choice in field... so alls good