3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

yes it did not because @Thormind really got me riled up there. It is so ignorant to even remotely compare the two datasets, vassal league and e.g. regionals.

• The one from vassal is 1910 lists, and we can get a lot of information, even down to the actual score and - very important! - their opponent.
• The tiers mean that the difference in skill will be much smaller compared to regionals where player skill is wildly mixed.
  • if Paul Heaver beats my Timewalk Asajj with 4 naked hawks 100-0 then it doesn't mean that hawks are awesome and Timewalk Asajj is bad. It means I'm much worse than him. That means the datasets for regionals and almost all tournaments, really, is already skewed.
• We can talk about winpercentages. Most data on listjuggler does not include who played against who. That means we can't get faction, ship, pilot or upgrade winpercentages. All we have are the scores - usually, but not always - without the number of rounds played.
  • even if that is added manually, % requires to remove mirrors. 2 rebels playing each other will result in 50% winrate. If 9 out of 10 games are rebel-rebel mirrors (yes, I know that's not possible, I want to explain the principle), then the winrate is 45% or 55%, depending on whether the rebel lost or won the 10th game.
• Regionals include a lot of fatigue while this component is removed on vassal where games are usually spread out. Fatigue can tell us maybe which lists are easier to play, but that's not the same as telling us whether a pilot is too good compared to others.
• Regionals allow us to say which ships, pilots and upgrades were used how frequently and where they placed in a tournament. That's basically it.

To give an actual example: I'm currently taking a look at the 13 regionals since December 9th. Out of 1165 ship builds, 262 used harpoons, distributed over 145 squads out of 410 total. That means 22.5% of ships used Harpoons, or 35% of squads had at least one Harpoon. All I can say now is what scores they had: 92/145 (63%) had a score of 4 or higher. But we have no context. Some regionals went to 6 games and 8 people went 6-0, and part went 4-2. Other regionals went to 4 games, and there are also people that have a score of 4. But clearly 4-0 and 4-2 is not the same.

And there are many more problems like this. It really is incredibly ignorant to dismiss the data from vassal league so casually and flippantly.

You may be taking this a bit too seriously. Also, a few weeks ago you told me that you placed me on your ignore list, weird. Anyway, Harpoons do not need to be nerfed.

I probably don't call for nerfs to defend my preferred faction. Don't have one.

I do want a game where I can fly a squad of jousters and have a prayer of winning. Decloak is probably a good example. A careful Whisper player could solo a BBBBZ list given enough time. That's... not ideal.

There are still folks that will say that nerf was not needed. Imagine a world with pre-nerf Whisper and Kylo. Good night.

Harpoon is not off the charts strong but punishes lists with lots of ships. Reinforce is beatable but not two dice attack ships.

Tie swarm was struggling and these two upgrades seem custom made to kill them even deader. That's just dumb and bad.

19 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Ahab is already having a difficult enough time against the current whale meta.

what a gift you've given us. my god

What would also help is a -2 title card for TIE fighters, More ships!!!

5 hours ago, GILLIES291 said:

What would also help is a -2 title card for TIE fighters, More ships!!!

How does more potential splash damage hurt Harpoons???

2 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

How does more potential splash damage hurt Harpoons???

Because more ships! It's win win. Shhhh

Are still people whining about harpoons?

5 hours ago, Arma Quattro said:

Are still people whining about harpoons?

Well, one of the reasons Nym Miranda is able to put out such insane damage is Harpoons. Harpoons+Trajectory simulator essentially give the list an additional 3 automatic damage (or more depending on positioning of other ships, etc..) on the initial pass.

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Well, one of the reasons Nym Miranda is able to put out such insane damage is Harpoons. Harpoons+Trajectory simulator essentially give the list an additional 3 automatic damage (or more depending on positioning of other ships, etc..) on the initial pass.

Yeah, honestly I think the bigger issue with that combo is Harpoons rather than TrajSim + Genius

4 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Well, one of the reasons Nym Miranda is able to put out such insane damage is Harpoons. Harpoons+Trajectory simulator essentially give the list an additional 3 automatic damage (or more depending on positioning of other ships, etc..) on the initial pass.

Yeah, I get you mate......but once again we're looking at the trees and ignoring the forest a bit I think. The real issue with the Harpoons part of the equation of ships like Nym Miranda is the fact that they are uber powerful and Harpoons are just another arrow in their OP quivers. If the game didn't have have TLT turrets or Regen, Harpoons wouldn't be a problem on either of them, IMO.

I don't know, here in Italy we haven't seen such überOP lists.

We're still stuck with wookies and ghosts getting stomped by GUNs. ?

17 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, I get you mate......but once again we're looking at the trees and ignoring the forest a bit I think. The real issue with the Harpoons part of the equation of ships like Nym Miranda is the fact that they are uber powerful and Harpoons are just another arrow in their OP quivers. If the game didn't have have TLT turrets or Regen, Harpoons wouldn't be a problem on either of them, IMO.

Well I would be willing to make the case that Miranda's regen is actually fair, even with TLT, but that the problem is all of those combined with slam!

I understand your point, but is it really the perspective of people calling harpoons the "savior of X-wing" that they are well balanced missile? I know I'm exaggerating that a bit but accretion is the exact reason why a ridiculously efficient missile is problematic and why silver bullet cards (which by the way, many people argued TLT was for the big base turret meta) don't work.

I know that the idea is that harpoons have brought back arcs, and thus positioning, as a mechanic and I think that's fair to a degree and more palatable than TLT, for example.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Well I would be willing to make the case that Miranda's regen is actually fair, even with TLT, but that the problem is all of those combined with slam!

I understand your point, but is it really the perspective of people calling harpoons the "savior of X-wing" that they are well balanced missile? I know I'm exaggerating that a bit but accretion is the exact reason why a ridiculously efficient missile is problematic and why silver bullet cards (which by the way, many people argued TLT was for the big base turret meta) don't work.

I know that the idea is that harpoons have brought back arcs, and thus positioning, as a mechanic and I think that's fair to a degree and more palatable than TLT, for example.

I dont like how complicated condition cards are in general but the 2 good ones ( harpooned and ISTDs ) exist to help counter specific things.

Harpooned was introduced to the game because Re-Enforce and specifically Lowhrick was added, I refuse to believe it was just a fun idea they had been sitting on. This was their biggs solution to. Those defensive combos are immediately problematic without harpoons to punish formation spread damage lists.

In the case of ISTDs it exists to put the fear of Kylo in turret lists that never go a turn without taking a shot. For that reason I have always been a supporter of ISTDs. It even serves to put a cieling on the PS race. Palp serves a similar purpose.

Do these conditions feel bad for other lists sometimes sure. But they are a finite resource except for reload which is predictable to deal with and they serve a critical purpose.

Take away harpoons and Kanan/Low or Miranda/Low will be even more efficient than it already is.

The absolute least fun games of xwing in my opinion are cases where one player is moving around soaking up damage and shooting with a turret or turret equivalent and the other is desparately working against the HP countdown to survive while dealing with bombs or 4-5 dice primaries at range one. Im talking specifically about Lowhrick combos here. I don't mind Rey, Dash, RAC, etc. Harpoons at best makes matchups against defensive combos even when they otherwise wouldnt be.

Harpoons "barely" surpresses tanky builds that have in the recent past dominated the meta and are solid options in every meta including this one. Although Trajectory throws a literal wrench into Lowhrick's gameplan now I still think Harpoons are ultimately healthy for they game.

Defensive Combo Power Creep already happened. It seems natural for ordinance to catchup.

So yea.

If anything I think people actually underestimate how different and potentially similar to the biggs meta the meta would be without harpoons everywhere.

If we still had Biggs, Harpoons wouldn't be so much of a problem.

But unfortunately half of this community kept on whining until they nerfed him.

Don't worry though, only a few months of whining until Harpoons gets nerfed, too.

2 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

If we still had Biggs, Harpoons wouldn't be so much of a problem.

But unfortunately half of this community kept on whining until they nerfed him.

Don't worry though, only a few months of whining until Harpoons gets nerfed, too.

The Biggs nerf is not the reason we dont see him.

Harpoons and soon Trajectory keep him out of the game.

1 minute ago, Schu81 said:

Do n't worry though, only a few months of whining until Harpoons gets nerfed, too.

3 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

If we still had Biggs, Harpoons wouldn't be so much of a problem.

But unfortunately half of this community kept on whining until they nerfed him.

Don't worry though, only a few months of whining until Harpoons gets nerfed, too.

No, pre-nerf Biggs lists would have been pretty vulnerable to Harpoons. That splash damage works on the same range increment as the mustache. And that's only for one faction. Honestly, Wes is a better anti-harpoon pilot.

If we still had Wes... then...

oh wait, we still have Wes

20 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I dont like how complicated condition cards are in general but the 2 good ones ( harpooned and ISTDs ) exist to help counter specific things.

Harpooned was introduced to the game because Re-Enforce and specifically Lowhrick was added, I refuse to believe it was just a fun idea they had been sitting on. This was their biggs solution to. Those defensive combos are immediately problematic without harpoons to punish formation spread damage lists.

In the case of ISTDs it exists to put the fear of Kylo in turret lists that never go a turn without taking a shot. For that reason I have always been a supporter of ISTDs. It even serves to put a cieling on the PS race. Palp serves a similar purpose.

Do these conditions feel bad for other lists sometimes sure. But they are a finite resource except for reload which is predictable to deal with and they serve a critical purpose.

Take away harpoons and Kanan/Low or Miranda/Low will be even more efficient than it already is.

The absolute least fun games of xwing in my opinion are cases where one player is moving around soaking up damage and shooting with a turret or turret equivalent and the other is desparately working against the HP countdown to survive while dealing with bombs as or 4-5 dice primaries at range one. Im talking specifically about Lowhrick combos here. I don't mind Rey, Dash, RAC, etc. Harpoons at best makes matchups against defensive combos even when they otherwise wouldnt be.

Harpoons "barely" surpresses tanky builds that have in the recent past dominated the meta and are solid options in every meta including this one. Although Trajectory throws a literal wrench into Lowhrick's gameplan now I still think Harpoons are ultimately healthy for they game.

Defensive Combo Power Creep already happened. It seems natural for ordinance to catchup.

So yea.

If anything I think people actually underestimate how different and potentially similar to the biggs meta the meta would be without harpoons everywhere.

I don't disagree but to me, this speaks more to the problematic nature of the design of those mechanics that should have been better in the first place. I mean, Harpoons are going to make it very difficult for any sort of swarms or range 1 support mechanics to return/or be designed effectively.

On 2018-01-12 at 4:24 PM, GreenDragoon said:

1) If it is a systematic error for everything then we can still compare two subsets with the same systematic error. So effectively you can only dismiss the data I showed if you are saying that a very large amount of Cruise - and only Cruise! - players are cheating.

2) Yeah, no. You clearly don't understand because the point of contention is the data source. His work is fine and not the problem. But the data source is very flawed because so many entries are missing. The vassal league has some unique advantages that we never have with the data aggregated on meta wing.

3) And again you demonstrate that you do not understand metawing or how to use it. I even linked you the data. Click here . That's now using your timeframe from Wave8 to SLAM nerf. 390/1642 Mirandas used Homing missiles, or 24%. Where did those 390 Homing missiles go in your set?

1) We dont know how many players are cheating. You can try to get as technical as you want and give thousands of arguments, there is just no way around that fact. If we knew that it was a small number then yes, it could be fine. Without knowing that number you cant have reliable data. Thats just pure and simple logic.

Even if you dont cheat, its much easier to evaluate measures on a small computer screen (unless you play on your 50" TV of course) than it is to do with the IRL material. Like you said afterward in another post, there is also other factors that influence IRL games (like fatigue and stress) and are almost absent from Vassal. Since only IRL games are taken into account by FFG, there is no reason to evaluate products based on something that provide a different game experience.

2) Again its not perfect but its the most reliable source we have for IRL games. If you go to a major event you are very likely to face many opponents with builds that are similar to what you get there. Which is the whole point of a meta analyser. You say its unreliable yet every items that got nerfed so far were cleary where they should have been (ie on the top).

3) There is a reason why i went with archetypes instead of the pilot. You can only evaluate an upgrade properly if you do it in the context of the meta. You want to take the statistically proven successful buils (not the fringe ones that would be filtered by the analyzer) and see how many successfully used homers instead of (or with) bombs. You can still get some useful data by looking at the pilot as you did:

world champ: 1 homer, best result 118th in the swiss, none made the cut
Nationals: 3 homers, less than 25%, best result 32rd position (and thats for all combined Nationals...)

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

I don't disagree but to me, this speaks more to the problematic nature of the design of those mechanics that should have been better in the first place. I mean, Harpoons are going to make it very difficult for any sort of swarms or range 1 support mechanics to return/or be designed effectively.

to paraphrase, "If swarms were already dead competitively, then what does it matter if we make them extra dead." - the Devs, not kidding