Nerf Everything but TIE Interceptors. I'm starting to think TIE Interceptors are the worst ship in the game. No one asks for them to get nerfed.

But then again this is the community FFG has set up with now their only meta correction tool is a Nerfrata and not buffing or supporting counter-play. Ever heard bout only having a hammer?

3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Designing a card to specifically neuter other cards is never the answer.

Why not, that's how military tech works.

Then the cards coexist in a balance of the threat of use vs. the threat of being countered.

And no, I'm not saying "Card A: Cancel Card B" but rather "Card A: mitigate the effectiveness of situation B."

3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Designing a card to specifically neuter other cards is never the answer.

Autos at least works in all cases R3, so its not specifically anti-turret.

Well, my idea wasn't to specifically neuter Harpoons only, it was something against all ordinance - which would include all bombs, missiles, and torpedoes. Of course no one wants them nerfed out of the game, but a counter to them would be nice.

There are many things that have a direct counter - Chewbacca and Determination vs Kylo's ability comes to mind. I'm not even calling for a direct counters, just something to blunt the edge a little.

55 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

Well, my idea wasn't to specifically neuter Harpoons only, it was something against all ordinance - which would include all bombs, missiles, and torpedoes. Of course no one wants them nerfed out of the game, but a counter to them would be nice.

There are many things that have a direct counter - Chewbacca and Determination vs Kylo's ability comes to mind. I'm not even calling for a direct counters, just something to blunt the edge a little.

I can see a niche for this. Countermeasures and Black One are really restrictive cards. One is large-ship only, the other is a unique title. I guess there's Expert Handling, but that's perhaps too much of an edge case. With as many kinds of ships out there, perhaps there ought to be some which are more broadly equip-able. However, it shouldn't be too powerful.

If so, there's a chance it'd lead to a spiral and become bad game design. A huge part of why missiles are powerful these days is Guidance Chips and Long Range Scanners. That is, zero point upgrades added to the game because missiles and torpedos were behind the power curve. Suppose FFG comes up with an easy-to-equip upgrade that greatly expands the anti-ordnance capabilities of many ships. Then ordnance is trash, and we'll need a new round of Guidance Chips and LRS in order to make it viable again. Then we'll need a new round of anti-ordnance.

Personally, the more I think about the idea of 5 point Harpoons, the more I like it. At 5 points, there'd be an interesting listbuilding choice: Homing for anti-ace, Harpoon for anti-swarm, Concussion for cheapness, or Cruise for those wildmen out there who want to live dangerously in the range game. At 4 points, Harpoons are, except against a small number of ships, just far ahead of the missile race.

5 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

What about some anti-ordinance tech instead of straight-up nerfing Harpoons?

Right, so instead of nerfing Harpoons, we end up nerfing Harpoons, Cruise, Protons, Clusters, Prockets, Plasmas, Homing, etc. etc. etc.

Good plan.

But saying that harpoons are too good is not true?

Harpoons on Nym are too good. Harpoons on Scurrgs are too good.

Harpoons on Miranda are not too good, which should be surprising because she can pay a shield to increase dice.
Harpoons on Khiraxz or Z95 are not too good. Harpoons on imperial ships are not too good.

Maybe it's not the Harpoons that are the problem?

Edit: more specifically, it's just Rebel Nym! The Scum Scurrgs have even lower % with Harpoons!

So the problem is not Harpoons, it's not the Scurrg, it's not GC or LRS. It's not even Miranda (well that's another problem...). The problem is Nym.

Harpoons are fine, as strange as it sounds.

18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If so, there's a chance it'd lead to a spiral and become bad game design. A huge part of why missiles are powerful these days is Guidance Chips and Long Range Scanners. That is, zero point upgrades added to the game because missiles and torpedos were behind the power curve. Suppose FFG comes up with an easy-to-equip upgrade that greatly expands the anti-ordnance capabilities of many ships. Then ordnance is trash, and we'll need a new round of Guidance Chips and LRS in order to make it viable again. Then we'll need a new round of anti-ordnance.

Again, it's should not be a hard counter.

Something like:

Modification: Chaff Dispenser: Change 1 Blank to an Evade when defending against torp/missiles. 0 points.

Modification: Ablative Plating: Cancel 1 attack die when suffering the effects of a bomb. Discard this card. 0 points.

The player has to decide if it is worth putting in a list and using up that mod slot. If the game is ordnance heavy, it was good choice. If not, it is a mod wasted that could have been used for something else.

BUT, if used wisely (put it on 1 ship in your list as the "ordnance buster"--the ship that is going to hunt the ordnance ships), then it could make the game more balanced and increase tactical options.

And, in the long haul, it will either reduce the use of ordnance in the bomb meta and harpoon meta, and/or force those ordnance players to choose targets more prudently.

53 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Right, so instead of nerfing Harpoons, we end up nerfing Harpoons, Cruise, Protons, Clusters, Prockets, Plasmas, Homing, etc. etc. etc.

Good plan.

Isn't that what they already did with jamming though? (Ofc theres still the issue of said jamming ship doing no damage, but that's for different theirycraft) either take the mods or that the opportunity

50 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Right, so instead of nerfing Harpoons, we end up nerfing Harpoons, Cruise, Protons, Clusters, Prockets, Plasmas, Homing, etc. etc. etc.

Good plan.

Read much? I said not a direct counter, just something to blunt them a little. This game is already full of those kinds of cards and it's great, i.e. Black One, Countermeasures, Expert Handling.

36 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Again, it's should not be a hard counter.

Something like:

Modification: Chaff Dispenser: Change 1 Blank to an Evade when defending against torp/missiles. 0 points.

Modification: Ablative Plating: Cancel 1 attack die when suffering the effects of a bomb. Discard this card. 0 points.

The player has to decide if it is worth putting in a list and using up that mod slot. If the game is ordnance heavy, it was good choice. If not, it is a mod wasted that could have been used for something else.

BUT, if used wisely (put it on 1 ship in your list as the "ordnance buster"--the ship that is going to hunt the ordnance ships), then it could make the game more balanced and increase tactical options.

And, in the long haul, it will either reduce the use of ordnance in the bomb meta and harpoon meta, and/or force those ordnance players to choose targets more prudently.

I like these idea. Opportunity cost is a big cost.

42 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Again, it's should not be a hard counter.

Something like:

Modification: Chaff Dispenser: Change 1 Blank to an Evade when defending against torp/missiles. 0 points.

Modification: Ablative Plating: Cancel 1 attack die when suffering the effects of a bomb. Discard this card. 0 points.

The player has to decide if it is worth putting in a list and using up that mod slot. If the game is ordnance heavy, it was good choice. If not, it is a mod wasted that could have been used for something else.

BUT, if used wisely (put it on 1 ship in your list as the "ordnance buster"--the ship that is going to hunt the ordnance ships), then it could make the game more balanced and increase tactical options.

And, in the long haul, it will either reduce the use of ordnance in the bomb meta and harpoon meta, and/or force those ordnance players to choose targets more prudently.

Yeah, I'd probably be fine with something modest. Countermeasures exist, but there ought to be versions of such things for almost all kinds of ships.

Our Epic League is honestly becoming a bit ridiculous when a raider can, with the help of a Stridan Upsilon with Weapon engineer & Target Sync - throw 3 of them in your fleet and still get 2 primary weapons.

FFG Fix epic pls - those things should be either Unique or Limited.

So I guess we‘re just ignoring that Harpoons are not a problem and just Rebel Nym is?

36 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So I guess we‘re just ignoring that Harpoons are not a problem and just Rebel Nym is?

I'd still be putting the auzituk/lowrick and lok revanant over either of those right now.....

4 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

I'd still be putting the auzituk/lowrick and lok revanant over either of those right now.....

Oh, definitely. I meant within the context of harpoons (where, interestingly enough, lok revenants are worse. They drop from 64% winrate without harpoons to 55% with harpoons... Only rebel nym gets a massive, almost 15% boost!)

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Oh, definitely. I meant within the context of harpoons (where, interestingly enough, lok revenants are worse. They drop from 64% winrate without harpoons to 55% with harpoons... Only rebel nym gets a massive, almost 15% boost!)

I think you'll find that's just too many people throwing them on and assuming they are auto-win.

You roll metawing dates back to the faqening (11/16) and they are still number 2 on the listings for effectiveness

6 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

I think you'll find that's just too many people throwing them on and assuming they are auto-win.

You roll metawing dates back to the faqening (11/16) and they are still number 2 on the listings for effectiveness

Including adjustments for tournament size, and matchup bias due to tournament structure.

The advantage of the vassal data is the higher number of games and FFA games against opponents of +/- equal skill due to the tiers. That is IMO way better to assess the strength of a card like harpoons.

I'm still waiting for any evidence to support the 'too good' assertion.

And while we're waiting, here a further illustration as to why that evidence won't show up:

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

But saying that harpoons are too good is not true?

Harpoons on Nym are too good. Harpoons on Scurrgs are too good.

Harpoons on Miranda are not too good, which should be surprising because she can pay a shield to increase dice.
Harpoons on Khiraxz or Z95 are not too good. Harpoons on imperial ships are not too good.

Maybe it's not the Harpoons that are the problem?

Edit: more specifically, it's just Rebel Nym! The Scum Scurrgs have even lower % with Harpoons!

So the problem is not Harpoons, it's not the Scurrg, it's not GC or LRS. It's not even Miranda (well that's another problem...). The problem is Nym.

Harpoons are fine, as strange as it sounds.

This.

I ran some games last evening; harpoons involved on Z-95s, no problem. It’s the stupid chassis that make upgrades stupid. I ran an ordinance laden Punisher; fun but no problem.

Stalin may have made famous his quote, “no man, no problem,” but we could say in this case, “no Nym, no problem.”

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

So I guess we‘re just ignoring that Harpoons are not a problem and just Rebel Nym is?

Pretty much.

Harpoon on rebel Nym is no worse than on Vader, Quickdraw, or anything with Longrange scanners. Actually, Quickdraw with FCS and Targetting Synchroniser is a pretty big problem for anyone coupled with a low PS Harpoon swarm, so saying Harpoons aren’t the problem is just plain wrong.

How has Rebel Nym been doing so far in Regionals? Not great. He’s not a problem, because of harpoons

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

So I guess we‘re just ignoring that Harpoons are not a problem and just Rebel Nym is?

This thread shows what happens when people's biases are confronted with data. Their biases are a stronger influence than facts.

16 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

Read much? I said not a direct counter, just something to blunt them a little. This game is already full of those kinds of cards and it's great, i.e. Black One, Countermeasures, Expert Handling.

Likewise. I didn't say anything about a direct counter, either. I was pointing out that anything that "blunts" Harpoons is likely to blunt every other missile and torpedo as well, when the rest of them aren't even seeing much play right now because Harpoons are simply too good. So any plan that hurts all 20-ish pieces of ordnance just to deal with Harpoons is a Bad Plan™.

I think some sort of ability like Wes or Black One for conditions would be cool.

14 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

I think some sort of ability like Wes or Black One for conditions would be cool.

Hum....

EPT: Unshakable

After performing an attack, if the attack misses, you may remove one condition card.

2 Points.

Maybe Harpoon should be TIE Punisher, Kihraxe and Z-95 only ?