Calling in Favors / Watch Commander

By TacticsFanatic, in L5R LCG: Rules Discussion

How does playing Calling in Favors work when used on a character participating in a conflict to attempt to take Watch Commander?

One person told me the because the ability of Watch Commander is a reaction, the window only opens upon the completion of the triggering condition "playing a card" which in turn is only completed after cost is paid, interrupts used, and effects resolve. As at the conclusion of "playing" Calling in Favors the opposing player no longer owns Watch Commander, that player cannot use the reaction ability.

A second person told me that the reaction window opens prior to the opponent paying the costs of the card, or the earliest possible time a person could be considered to have "played a card", and therefore the reaction triggers prior to the attached Watch Commander being removed.

Which is correct?

RR page 9 - Initiating Abilities / Playing Cards

Step 6 is the point where the ability initiates. Initiation is separate from resolution, but is the point at which we are considered to have "played a card." Here Watch Commander actually triggers butting in to cause an honor loss, and THEN we move to Step 7 where the ability initiation completes and we actually resolve the ability's effects.

Step 1 and 2 are checks to see if you can play a card or can pay the cost, 3, 4, and 5 are actually paying costs and picking targets, 6 is initiation where you can play cancels and reactions like Watch Commander to "playing a card" or "initiating an ability." Step 7 is to actually resolve the effects.

Edited by shosuko

Are you certain?

Step 6 reads: "The card attempts to enter play, or the effects of the ability attempt to initiate. An interrupt ability that cancels this initiation may be used at this time." This language does not refer to reactions.

On the other hand, there is language after Step 7 that states "Interrupts and reactions may be used throughout this process as normal, should their triggering conditions occur."

The use of "Throughout" suggests that a reaction can trigger at any one of the steps so long as the triggering condition is met... but I have yet to which step results in a card officially being considered "Played."

The definition of "In-Play / Out-of-Play" says "A card enters play when it transitions from an out-of-play origin to an in-play state."

The definition of "Play" resolves ambiguity with respect to character/attachments: "Playing a character or attachment card involves paying the card’s fate cost and placing the card in the play area. This causes the card to enter play." But the event card text reads "When an event card is played, place it on the table, resolve its ability, and place the card in its owner’s discard pile." The use of the past tense form of "played" seems to suggest that an event is considered "played" even before it is placed on the table, which would seem to indicated that it occurs after a player announces a card. But that same section also says "In order to play a card, its fate cost (after modifiers) must be paid" which suggests that a card cannot possibly be considered "played" until at least step 4.

*EDIT* Alternatively, "When an event card is played, place it on the table, resolve its ability, and place the card in its owner’s discard pile" could be interpreted as saying the state of "Played" is only complete after 1) it is placed on the table, 2) resolved, and 3) then placed in its owner’s discard pile

Is there another reference somewhere that I am missing?

Edited by TacticsFanatic

Ah, sorry, I have to hunt around this whole thing to find the cross references.

Under Event Cards:

"If the effects of an event card are canceled, the card is still considered to have been played, and its costs remain paid, and the card is still discarded. Only the effects have been canceled."

One interpretation of this language is that it was meant to clear up confusion that canceling a card (skipping Step 7) does not make the card "not-played." If Step 6 was all it took to "play" a card, there would be a no confusion, as the card is only resolved on step 7. The fact that there was confusion suggests that the rule is normally that the resolution of a card must take place before it is considered played.

Of possible support is the Event language "When an event card is played, its costs are paid, its effects are resolved (or canceled), and it is placed in its owner’s discard pile prior to opening the reaction window which follows the ability’s resolution." However, this refers to the reaction window in response to the card's "ability," not the act of playing a card itself...

*EDITED FOR CLARITY*

Edited by TacticsFanatic

Step 6 is when you actually play a card. Interrupts happen immediately prior to their triggering condition (when you would play a card or would initiate an ability) while reactions happen after (when you play a card or initiate an ability.) These are both triggered by step 6.

Step 7 is the resolution of the ability that has been played. Initiating an ability and the resolution of its effects are 2 separate steps. This is important for interactions like this where you are reacting to a card being played but you aren't cancelling it - the reaction to a card being played still butts in prior to the effect resolution. So it goes 1) Calling in Favors is played, 2) Watch Commander reaction is triggered and resolved, 3) Calling in Favors effect completes resolution. Net effect - you lose 1 honor and steal Watch Commander.

The wording may be a bit confusing because the rules are detailing several things together. It could be that you are playing an event, which does not put a card in play but does initiate an ability. It could be that you are playing a card which may mean a card enters play but no ability triggers, or it could mean you are triggering an ability but no card is being played. For all of these the overlap is that Step 6 is when its initiated meaning the ability has been triggered or the card has been played, and Step 7 is the separate step where you complete any effect resolution caused by playing the card or initiating the ability.

Edited by shosuko

New FAQ says that Watch Commander triggers in step 6, before the effects of the triggering card take place in step 7. So they lose 1 honour then take the card.