Cruise Missiles and Harpoon Missiles are the current favourites when it comes to dropping payloads, for good reason.

But would they still be the number one picks if all other ordnance lost the "Spend Your Target Lock" wording? I think probably so; Cruise can generate up to 5 attack dice, Harpoon has the condition/splash damage, and both are very competitvely priced. There's a couple of other missiles which allow you to retain your Target Lock - due to price, range restrictions or role, Homing, Advanced Homing and Ion Pulse all only really see niche use, even with the benefit of rerolls.

So is the "Spend Your Target Lock" restriction out of date now? Would removing the restriction from upgrades like Plasma and Proton Torpedoes, Concussion or Cluster Missiles make a significant impact on their usage, or just open up a bit more variety in list building?

Plasma torps. Native 4 dice with TL for 3 points is stupid cheap, let alone the bonus effect..

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Plasma torps. Native 4 dice with TL for 3 points is stupid cheap, let alone the bonus effect..

Yeah, that would be a powerful one - it's already clearly the strongest Torpedo by virtue of price alone. It'd still probably be under the bar set by Harpoons, though (not that that's a bad thing).

Plasma and Proton torps would appear more often on eg X and Y-Wings, as incidentals. At the moment, you need some way to also have a focus effect and Guidance Chips for them to be worthwhile. And not taking Integrated Astromech on an X-wing is a bad idea generally, whereas keeping the TL makes them moderately useful even without any further modifications.

16 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yeah, that would be a powerful one - it's already clearly the strongest Torpedo by virtue of price alone. It'd still probably be under the bar set by Harpoons, though (not that that's a bad thing).

Is it though?

Same dice amount, same range. Both can deal an extra damage, plasma just for free, harpoons later if triggered.

Sure harpoons can splash, but that‘s also dangerous. Plasma just give you the extra damage on shields, which is awesome.

For 4 points I would agree, but not on 3

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Sure harpoons can splash, but that‘s also dangerous. Plasma just give you the extra damage on shields, which is awesome.

Well, it's awesome if you're flying against ships with lots of shields, anyway. Most TIEs couldn't care less about Plasma's bonus effect, for a start. They don't like splash damage though.

Really, both effects are somewhat situational, but the splash (and condition) from Harpoons can have a more significant effect over the course of a game, even if just psychologically when it comes to helping contorl enemy movement.

I like the play the idea gives with Concussion missiles and Proton torps, because you still get a potential benefit from a specific nonhit result. The only ships that use Cluster missiles are ships that can reroll from some other source, and even then each shot going against defense dice neuters it, so keeping the TL would merely broaden its viability without truly intensifying it (this too is a good thing). Plasma could cause trouble, but I'm not sure how often we would see double modded Plasmas in this post Attanni world. Even with Guidance chips, a lot of ships would have to weigh the opportunity cost of it over other mods.

Overall I like keeping the TL, but it should be tested case by case. Plasmas are the only one that concerns me.

46 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Well, it's awesome if you're flying against ships with lots of shields, anyway. Most TIEs couldn't care less about Plasma's bonus effect, for a start. They don't like splash damage though.

Really, both effects are somewhat situational, but the splash (and condition) from Harpoons can have a more significant effect over the course of a game, even if just psychologically when it comes to helping contorl enemy movement.

I agree. But I think we also agree that Harpoons are overpowered.

Dealing an extra shield damage and no splash is something that makes plasmas more balanced compared to harpoons.

Removing the TL condition and increasing the cost to 4 would leave plasmas in an ok spot. Or keeping the TL and cost of 3.

edit: thinking again about it: that would make the torpedo amazing, actually. Even at 4 points! Just 4pt 4 dice would be ok. An extra damage on top would make it good!

Put it this way: my gut feel is that 4 points, no spend, no other special effects would be fairly balanced.

I don't think anything would break as far as missiles are concerned, however I would keep "spend TL" requirement for torpedoes (and adjust effects accordingly). This way there is still a meaningful difference between missile slot and torpedo slot.

With all the ordinance already fielded in mind, we need to tread carefully in making more secondaries more easily squad applicable......the game is bending under the current weight of ordinance already. Although, let's admit it, up-gradable turreted ships and point fortresses really created the munitions race in the first place.

Ion torpedoes...

4 dice, you don't cancel if you hit (so up to 4 dmg), and everyone around them gets 1 ion.

Ion is a really, REALLY devastating effect in x-wing...

I've always thought that was the way to fix torps and missiles, but then with Chips and LRS out there, if forces the player to take options. Granted the new two missiles (Harpoon, and Cruise), but circumvent this rule. It was still a good play choice.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Cruise Missiles and Harpoon Missiles are the current favourites when it comes to dropping payloads, for good reason.

But would they still be the number one picks if all other ordnance lost the "Spend Your Target Lock" wording? I think probably so; Cruise can generate up to 5 attack dice, Harpoon has the condition/splash damage, and both are very competitvely priced. There's a couple of other missiles which allow you to retain your Target Lock - due to price, range restrictions or role, Homing, Advanced Homing and Ion Pulse all only really see niche use, even with the benefit of rerolls.

So is the "Spend Your Target Lock" restriction out of date now? Would removing the restriction from upgrades like Plasma and Proton Torpedoes, Concussion or Cluster Missiles make a significant impact on their usage, or just open up a bit more variety in list building?

The reason Cruise and Harpoon are so popular is because they are power creep, plain and simple. And its entirely unnecessary. So frankly, you've got it the wrong way around. These missiles should have been spend the TL to fire, but FFG effed up again by not play-testing these things thoroughly enough. Having to spend TL to fire ordnance is no longer 'bad' because of guidance chips (which technically are also an OP card, but it was purposely done as an ordnance fix---although I think its not really the right way to go about it...)

If we're hypotheticalling secondary weapons, can we not just add some new die types?

Ordnance spending the TL made them too expensive for what they did.
In most ships you basically spend 3-5pts to add 1 die to your attack and (in most cases) a side effect.

Whats the main reason nobody takes expose? Loss of die mods by spending the action on expose. For ordnance youre spending the action to fire the missile, so w/o gchips theyre all utterly worthless and only ships dedicated to ordnance could take gchips due to the mod being so crucial on many ships.

Cruise missiles are fine. Harpoons are a bit over the top. It should have either been a 3die attack or cancel the uncancelled crit to cause the condition effect so it didnt hit insanely hard AND cause splash

Harpoon should have only applied the condition if it hit hull. Then you have a reason not to just burn them straight out of the gate (or at least, a trade-off), and you satisfy the (semi-legit) grumblings about why it's lodged in the hull when it's only hit shields, AND probably should have cancelled the crit to trigger the condition.

Harpoons are far and away the most powerful ordnance, and probably undercosted by 3-5 points, at least. You basically get a Plasma Torp (bonus damage to target), Assault Missile (splash damage to R1), and a Homing Missile (4-die don't spend lock) all on one ordnance, and it's cheaper than the latter two...? It's one of the most clearly power-crept upgrades in the game.

I think rather than dropping the SPEND TL from all other ordnance, it'd just be better to errata Harpoons to require spending the lock. Even if you got to keep the lock with all other missiles, I think Harpoons would still be the go-to missile by a good margin.

What I think should happen is the following,

All attacks which spend your target lock gain the following sentence.

"You may reroll any number of blank results during this attack".

So you still spend the lock, but you have rerolls so you at least get the main benefit of the lock at the time of the attack. Combo with focus or expertise for maximum benefit.

This gave me an idea: what about the inverse cruise missiles?

Start at 4-5 dice, reduce by the speed of your maneuver. Make it range1 or 1-2 so the carrier wants to move fast instead of slow. Keep TL, and cost it at 3pt.

My thoughts on "fixing" torpedoes, would be all torpedo get another red die. Or something that essentially means torpedoes have the potential for more damage, while missiles get to keep the lock for more accurate shots.

not spending the TL would give a boost to plenty of ordnance options. I don't think it would be unbalanced either.

Who wouldn't want to see PS 10 Wes/Wedge/Luke blasting something off the board with Proton Torpedoes!??!?!?! PLEASE FFG MAKE THIS HAPPEN!? I WANT TO RELIVE MY DEATH STAR FANTASIES!

All munitions that don't deal damage or use 3 damage dice could drop the Target Lock spending...

In today's game, I can't see one being OP because of it. The closest is Ion Torpedoes, but they are 5 points already, they basically end up at a harpoon level. The biggest impact will be less reliance on Guidance Chips, which will open torpedoes up to Xwings and other ships you want another modification on.

It would be just as nice to still require the TL be spent, but you can reroll up to your primary attack value.

That would solve most of the issues yes.

Still cant fire back to back without the actual acquiring targetlock part but dont gimp your offense w/o gchips.