Hello guys,

if I use Jyn Erso action and there are no enemy ships inside my firing arc, do I get no focus or can I chose another action?

0 focus tokens

8 hours ago, Sirioka said:

Hello guys,

if I use Jyn Erso action and there are no enemy ships inside my firing arc, do I get no focus or can I chose another action?

It would be the same as failing a target lock. If you measure for your Jyn action and find you're out of range of all enemy ships, then you can choose to perform a different action instead.

Page 3, under Acquire a Target Lock

Quote

• If a player declares an acquire a target lock action for his ship and the enemy ship he wants to lock is not at range, he may choose a different ship to lock or a different action entirely.

10 minutes ago, Parravon said:

It would be the same as failing a target lock. If you measure for your Jyn action and find you're out of range of all enemy ships, then you can choose to perform a different action instead.

Page 3, under Acquire a Target Lock

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case for Jyn. If an action has a restriction on whether not you're allowed to do it (Range 3 for a Target lock, Range 2 for Slicer Tools etc) and it fails you get to try a different action because you couldn't actually do that one in the first place. Jyn's text doesn't actually prevent you from doing her action if there's no one in arc, it just says assign focus equal to the number in arc. If that number is 0 then her ability still fires and you get 0 tokens.

However, this could arguably fall under the second exception for pre-measuring. Normally pre-measuring isn't allowed for anything. There are two exceptions. The first is when choosing a target to attack, you can check arc and range to any ship before deciding. The second relevant one is when using an ability with a restriction. For instance, Asaj can stress anyone in her mobile arc range 1 or 2. You can check multiple ships to see who is a valid target before deciding who to stress. It could also be argued that this doesn't apply to Jyn though because again she can trigger it "successfully" whether there is anyone in arc or not.

Just my personal stance, if I was in a game and someone tried to Jyn and got zero, I'd let them choose a different action but I think there's a strong RAW argument that they are stuck with just getting 0 focus by the letter of the law.

@Parravon I don’t think Target Lock is a valid precedent in this case. Target Lock is binary. Either you get it or you don’t, and the rules are explicit in either case.

Breakdown:

Jyn says, “Assign 1 focus token to that ship for each enemy ship inside your firing arc at Range 1-3.”

0 is a valid value in X-wing. You can assign 0 tokens if there are 0 enemy ships. Target Lock, in contrast, is looking for a specific ship, not a number of ships.

”You cannot assign more than 3 tokens this way.”

Assigning 0 is less than 3. There is no minimum on the card to make 0 invalid.

If you use your action for Jyn Erso you will choose 1 friendly ship (at Range 1-2) and assign 1 focus token to that ship for each enemy ship inside your firing arc at Range 1-3. If there are zero enemy ships in your firing arc at Range 1-3 then you will assign zero focus tokens with the Jyn Erso action. The ability does not fail to resolve; you still assign 1 focus token for each (zero) enemy ship inside your firing arc at Range 1-3.

From the FAQ (pg5-"Acquiring a Target Lock"): "When acquiring a target lock, a player must first declare the intended target. Then, he measures range to the declared target to see if the target is within legal range. If the target is in range, the ship performing the action must acquire a target lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the player may declare a different target, or he may declare a different action." This is how target lock actions work because the FAQ says so .

The part of Jyn that can fail, and result in resetting your action, is the "choose 1 friendly ship" part. "Choose a ship" is what can be extrapolated from the Target Lock ruling.

The enemy ships are not being selected/chosen, they are being counted.

When using the Jyn Action: the first thing you do is call which friendly ship you have chosen, if that is outside range 1-2 your target is invalid and action is cancelled. If that is a valid target for this action you continue to the rest of the card and count enemy ships and assign tokens.

See Kylo crew for a similar case. The only part of his ability that can "fail" and result in a new action being chosen is selecting an enemy ship at range 1-3. After that, if he is unable to find a Pilot crit in the opposing deck, the action is still resolved.

FFG unintentionally opened a can of worms with the "zero is a valid number" routine.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

FFG unintentionally opened a can of worms with the "zero is a valid number" routine.

Gotta agree with that.

20 hours ago, Stoneface said:

FFG unintentionally opened a can of worms with the "zero is a valid number" routine.

In this case (Jyn Erso) I disagree.

I have no problem with the way this card works. The point being that one should be judging (eye balling) having some enemy ships in range 1-3 of the firing arc of the friendly ship you decide.

MY QUESTION would be... what if the friendly ship you choose is an Arc-170 and there is an enemy ship in the front firing arc and another enemy ship in the rear firing arc? Would you assign two focus tokens or one? The argument for only one being that Jyn's card says "firing arc" (singular) not firing arcs (plural).

Two. Each of them in an enemy in your firing arc. It never says to choose a specific one.

It also does not specify what kind of firing arc. The aux, special, and side arcs make the ARC, VCX, and Auzituck good carriers for Jyn because the available space to check for enemies is greater.

On 12/22/2017 at 11:41 AM, Sephlar said:

In this case (Jyn Erso) I disagree.

I have no problem with the way this card works. The point being that one should be judging (eye balling) having some enemy ships in range 1-3 of the firing arc of the friendly ship you decide.

MY QUESTION would be... what if the friendly ship you choose is an Arc-170 and there is an enemy ship in the front firing arc and another enemy ship in the rear firing arc? Would you assign two focus tokens or one? The argument for only one being that Jyn's card says "firing arc" (singular) not firing arcs (plural).

You are supposed to count the enemy ships in "your" firing arc, not the chosen friendly ship's firing arc. Jyn Erso would have to be crew on the Arc-170 giving focus to another ship.

1 hour ago, player2641873 said:

You are supposed to count the enemy ships in "your" firing arc, not the chosen friendly ship's firing arc. Jyn Erso would have to be crew on the Arc-170 giving focus to another ship.

Ooops, she can give focus to her own ship.

On 12/22/2017 at 0:41 PM, Sephlar said:

In this case (Jyn Erso) I disagree.

I have no problem with the way this card works. The point being that one should be judging (eye balling) having some enemy ships in range 1-3 of the firing arc of the friendly ship you decide.

MY QUESTION would be... what if the friendly ship you choose is an Arc-170 and there is an enemy ship in the front firing arc and another enemy ship in the rear firing arc? Would you assign two focus tokens or one? The argument for only one being that Jyn's card says "firing arc" (singular) not firing arcs (plural).

I agree, there's little confusion over how Jun works. My observation was about other situations where "zero is considered a valid number".

I usually try to clarify this before playing with Jyn. In every case but one, my opponent has quickly said that if I get no focuses from the ability than I can choose another action.

It rarely needs to be applied.

On 12/27/2017 at 11:23 AM, Milovy said:

I usually try to clarify this before playing with Jyn. In every case but one, my opponent has quickly said that if I get no focuses from the ability than I can choose another action.

It rarely needs to be applied.

This is an incorrect application of the rules, though. Fine for casual games, not fine for events.

On 27/12/2017 at 4:23 PM, Milovy said:

I usually try to clarify this before playing with Jyn . In every case but one, my opponent has quickly said that if I get no focuses from the ability than I can choose another action.

It rarely needs to be applied.

Yeah, this is wrong.

As stated above, the action succeeds if the target ship is in range. You will get no focus tokens if there's no ships, hence 0 being a valid number.

On 20/12/2017 at 11:27 PM, nitrobenz said:

The part of Jyn that can fail, and result in resetting your action, is the "choose 1 friendly ship" part. "Choose a ship" is what can be extrapolated from the Target Lock ruling.

The enemy ships are not being selected/chosen, they are being counted.

When using the Jyn Action: the first thing you do is call which friendly ship you have chosen, if that is outside range 1-2 your target is invalid and action is cancelled. If that is a valid target for this action you continue to the rest of the card and count enemy ships and assign tokens.

This isn't exactly how it works. In the FAQ under "Measuring Range" it states the following

"When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability."

So you can, if you wish, measure range to all of your friendly ships after you declare you are using the ship's ability before deciding which of your friendly ships you wish to give focus tokens to.

I only know this as I saw a different post today for Asajj stating that Asajj can measure distance to all enemy ships before choosing which gets stress which is not how I've seen it played. I therefore checked the faq.

I'm now questioning the perceived wisdom that you may "cancel" the action if your desired friendly ship isn't at range 1-2. I can't find anything in the rules or the faq that states this is the case. I suspect that I've missed something but I can't be certain.

From my current reading of the rules / faq once the player has stated that the action is to be used then it's used. Maybe, if there wasn't any friendly ship at range 1-2 you could cancel it but there is always at least 1 (i.e. the ship with Jyn on it).

Can anyone reference anything in the rules / faq to show that the action can be cancelled?

I think the difference between Jyn and Asajj is that Jyn says "Choose one friendly ship..." Where Asajj says, "you may choose a ship..."

The 'may' bit is what gives Asajj extra flexibility in selection.

As for a rules reference, that is largely taken from using the Target Lock rule clarification as precedent. From p. 5 of FAQ4.4.0, under Rule Clarifications :

acquiring a target lock
When acquiring a target lock, a player must first declare the intended target. Then, he measures range to the declared target to see if the target is within legal range. If the target is in range, the ship performing the action must acquire a target lock on the target. If the target is not in range, the player may declare a different target, or he may declare a different action.

This "clarifies" the original rulebook text which stopped at saying you may aquire that Target Lock, instead of forcing you to, if the Target is in range.

Using the above to say Jyn must choose before assigning is only common precedent though, not an official ruling. It could be clarified by FFG in a future FAQ that the Target Lock is the only instance of hard and fast selection. Or they could reverse the clarification, thereby reversing the precedent for cards that say "Choose one ship at range x." Or they could confirm the precedent (!)

I think they will most likely just leave it as is and let people assume and argue as to whether things like Jyn are 'select then measure' vs. 'measure then select'

In line with Asajj's ruling, the ship with Jyn Erso would be able to measure range to all ships but must (unlike Asajj) pick 1 friendly ship. If you read "Choose 1 friendly ship" it looks like you must choose before measuring, but if you read the whole sentence: "Choose 1 friendly ship at Range 1-2 . " This means the ship you choose has a restriction to be applied before it can be chosen (at Range 1-2) and therefore you may measure to all your ships to determine which ship fits this restriction and is chosen. Now, you must pick at least 1 friendly ship and if no other friendly ships are at Range 1-2 you're left with only one choice: yourself.

So the Jyn Erso action can never fail and you may only change your mind on declared actions when playing casually, we have no place in telling you how to play X-Wing with friends in a casual setting. But, strictly within the Rules of the game, if you declare Jyn Erso as your action you must execute and complete the whole action - even if this means the ship with Jyn Erso must pick itself as "a friendly ship at Range 1-2" and/or it results in assigning zero focus tokens to that friendly ship.

EDIT : The target lock rules reference has no baring here as it a separately and specifically defined order of events. In order for Jyn Erso's ship selection to align with target locking her card would have to be worded: " A CTION : Choose 1 friendly ship. If that ship is at Range 1-2 assign 1 focus token to that ship for each enemy ship inside your firing arc at Range 1-3. You cannot assign more than 3 tokens in this way." [Which creates the argument that you would be able to choose ANY ship and the rest of her card would do nothing...] This is not the wording on Jyn Erso's card, she must "Choose 1 friendly ship at Range 1-2." which means you are prevented from choosing a ship not at range 1-2, how do you determine if she can or cannot choose a specific ship? You must measure range before making your selection.