Nah man we need battle maidens back.

The problem Unicorn have is that their stronghold has the highest possible ceiling of any of the strongholds in the game so far. Moving your best character into a conflict on attack or defense is extremely strong and the reason why you see just about every Unicorn with a good (excluding overlapping movement) ability lacking the Cavalry keyword. It's kind of a tough spot to be in, but, eventually Unicorn will get some sort of Cavalry character that can really abuse the stronghold and then people will start calling for the nerf bat.

I don't think there is a certain card Unicorn "needs" at the moment. Unicorn really just need more people to play them. And for anyone that does play them, to be open to playing them in different ways, not just how they remember them from Old5R or what the FFG clan teaser says about them. The cards dictate what they can do, and there are plenty of viable options for Unicorn to be competitive in the current metagame. Some more obvious than others.

On 12/28/2017 at 1:19 PM, Ishi Tonu said:

The problem Unicorn have is that their stronghold has the highest possible ceiling of any of the strongholds in the game so far.

Disagree completely.

It's completely telegraphed when the stronghold can happen as it has THREE qualifiers: MIL (Not POL) + "Cavalry" + move TO (not from). It's so qualified that it destroys any element of surprise or uncertainty. Then to top it off with the lowest honor and zero defense value? Yeah, not seeing the "highest possible ceiling".

Take off 1 of those 3 qualifications and we may have a new conversation.

2 hours ago, caseycheesecake said:

Disagree completely.

It's completely telegraphed when the stronghold can happen as it has THREE qualifiers: MIL (Not POL) + "Cavalry" + move TO (not from). It's so qualified that it destroys any element of surprise or uncertainty. Then to top it off with the lowest honor and zero defense value? Yeah, not seeing the "highest possible ceiling".

Take off 1 of those 3 qualifications and we may have a new conversation.

All the strongholds are telegraphed and have limitations. The number of qualifiers is not what makes a stronghold good or bad. It has to be balanced with the effect. I don't really count moving to (and not from) a battle as a negative. No other stronghold can move any character in, so the movement part of the stronghold is only a bonus, not a qualifier.

Lion: only on attack , generally with a swarm of characters

Crane: only in a political conflict , bows 2 pol skill or lower

Dragon: character has to have attachments

Crab: only on defense , generally with a swarm of characters

Phoenix: 2 glory boost, target generally needs to be honored or dishonored

Scorpion: has to be less honorable , take an honor from your opponent

The net skill gain from each of these strongholds is about 2 skill value, with exception of the Scorpion, which generally translates into an extra card. Unicorn, Crane, Dragon, and Phoenix are the only strongholds that can be used on attack and defense to generate additional skill advantage for your army. While the additional requirement of "Cavalry" obviously makes the Unicorn stronghold more narrow, It had to be that way or it would cripple future design for Unicorn. Additionally Unicorn has Favored Mount and Seal of the Unicorn to grant "Cavalry" to a character. Since the Stronghold does not specify "Unicorn" this opens it up to any neutral characters, or out of clan/neutral conflict characters that have "Cavalry" or can be given "Cavalry." With what is available now to Unicorn, there are 3 characters with 5 or more military skill. Moving that amount of skill to a military conflict on offense or defense is a bigger skill gain than any other stronghold can produce unless under extreme circumstances (i.e. Lion attacking with 5 or more characters, Crab defending with 5 or more characters, etc.) Unicorn also have the Captive Audience to change conflicts to military, and get bonuses for movement, as well as prevent unopposed honor loss with the stronghold by moving in bowed characters on defense. The Unicorn stronghold is far more versatile than it appears on the surface.

The reason why it has the highest ceiling is that it's always going to be as good as the best character printed with "Cavalry" or best character that can be played in a Unicorn deck that can be given "Cavalry." The other strongholds will always be around a net 2 skill gain, with exception to Scorpion. As is stands now with just the core set and one dynasty cycle, the Unicorn can gain roughly double the skill of any other clan in a military attack or defense. Or they can bring in their best character with an ability and "Cavalry." While Unicorn still have the worst Champion, their gains from using Altansarnai with the stronghold yield results that are beyond what other clans can achieve with their stronghold. Just imagine what happens when there are good characters for the Unicorn to use with the stronghold.

*The new phoenix stronghold was not included in this as it was not printed at the time I made my original comment*

I disagree because it simply provides strategic options, rather than raw power. On average, strongholds provide about 2 skill to a conflict, usually with ways to get more. The only way to 'gain' power is to make a small attack, and force your opponent to treat it as a larger attack. The fact that it only works with a military attack (and cavalry) severely limits the power of this play, especially when you see that you need a pretty large board to represent other attacks as well. Sometimes the feint works well, but it's usually awkward, doesn't work well against lopsided-powered characters (best against even-stats), is weaker early-game, etc. Like a lot of potentially cool unicorn cards, there are too many hoops to jump through to harness the potential.

Basically, at the end of the day, you have 7 fate worth of skill, and they have 7 fate worth of skill plus 2 from their stronghold. Sometimes you can trick your opponent into a misplay and make up that difference, but if your opponent wants, they can just ignore your feint and attack back. They'll have the advantage in a race, because their stronghold contributes 2 skill while Unicorn's does not.

It has potential, but there are too many hoops to make the setup worth it.

2 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

The reason why it has the highest ceiling is that it's always going to be as good as the best character printed with "Cavalry" or best character that can be played in a Unicorn deck that can be given "Cavalry." The other strongholds will always be around a net 2 skill gain, with exception to Scorpion. As is stands now with just the core set and one dynasty cycle, the Unicorn can gain roughly double the skill of any other clan in a military attack or defense. Or they can bring in their best character with an ability and "Cavalry." While Unicorn still have the worst Champion, their gains from using Altansarnai with the stronghold yield results that are beyond what other clans can achieve with their stronghold. Just imagine what happens when there are good characters for the Unicorn to use with the stronghold.

This is the main argument, yet there's a massive opportunity cost even in the best case. Basically, it lets you use an additional body in the conflict (sometimes). Great, but then you can't use them elsewhere. The net effect is not positive - it's zero. It provides ZERO actual "skill gain". And in reality, the opportunities to be able to move in another cavalry unit on a military conflict is very low. Typically you have 2-3 units on the board. Very easy to predict and counter.

@AradonTemplar

While the "cavalry feint" is the most obvious use of the stronghold, it's not where the stronghold begins and ends. If you can't acknowledge the other options this stronghold opens up then we really can't have a good discussion about it. I get your point, but, this is rarely how I use the stronghold.

Sorry AT I have no clue why I tagged you since this clearly a disagreement between me and CC. My bad

5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

@AradonTemplar

While the "cavalry feint" is the most obvious use of the stronghold, it's not where the stronghold begins and ends. If you can't acknowledge the other options this stronghold opens up then we really can't have a good discussion about it. I get your point, but, this is rarely how I use the stronghold.

You said the reason it has the highest ceiling is it gives potentially the highest skill. That's not true. It generates no additional value. It only shifts value from other opportunities.

Regarding the other options, even though you only included one: the option is to move a bowed character to save 1 honor loss. That, at least, saves 10% honor loss. This is by far the best and most reliable use of the stronghold at the moment, unfortunately. And, again, factoring the least starting honor and the least defense and you've got yourself objectively the worst stronghold in the game with a mediocre ceiling.

7 minutes ago, caseycheesecake said:

This is the main argument, yet there's a massive opportunity cost even in the best case. Basically, it lets you use an additional body in the conflict (sometimes). Great, but then you can't use them elsewhere. The net effect is not positive - it's zero. It provides ZERO actual "skill gain". And in reality, the opportunities to be able to move in another cavalry unit on a military conflict is very low. Typically you have 2-3 units on the board. Very easy to predict and counter.

This is an example of a bad use of the stronghold, imo. I'd much rather commit my army and use the stronghold to prevent uopposed honor loss in a military defense than commit to a bad attack and hope my opponent falls into my obvious trap. If you aren't threatening the province without a nice in then you're doing it wrong.

More often than not, I'm using the stronghold on someone I've already gotten their skill value out of, or to trigger effects that key off movement.

5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

This is an example of a bad use of the stronghold, imo. I'd much rather commit my army and use the stronghold to prevent uopposed honor loss in a military defense than commit to a bad attack and hope my opponent falls into my obvious trap. If you aren't threatening the province without a nice in then you're doing it wrong.

More often than not, I'm using the stronghold on someone I've already gotten their skill value out of, or to trigger effects that key off movement.

Exactly. Using the stronghold to prevent honor loss or to trigger spyglass is the best use. That's terrible. Add in lowest honor and lowest defense? Haha! Terrible stronghold.

Any application is mostly reactionary. At that point, you're either desperate enough that you're scrambling to prevent a loss. Any applications of it strategically are more gambles than strategy.

1 hour ago, caseycheesecake said:

You said the reason it has the highest ceiling is it gives potentially the highest skill. That's not true. It generates no additional value. It only shifts value from other opportunities.

Regarding the other options, even though you only included one: the option is to move a bowed character to save 1 honor loss. That, at least, saves 10% honor loss. This is by far the best and most reliable use of the stronghold at the moment, unfortunately. And, again, factoring the least starting honor and the least defense and you've got yourself objectively the worst stronghold in the game with a mediocre ceiling.

Actually I said it was because it brings the best Calvary character to the battle. Sometimes it can be that simple skill boost. Since we attack and defend in the same turn I still have to consider the possibility of a return attack from my opponent. Of they overload the defense I can then decide if it's worth commuting more. So saying there is no skill gain is somewhat disingenuous. Beyond that there are still skills to consider.

What if there were a military equivalent of Kachiko and you had cavalry on it? You now have a threat that punishes people that defend. So the attack goes unopposed and if your opponent tries to attack back militarily you could move it in an still use the ability on defense.

The ceiling will rise with the inevitable powercreep because as it's as good as the cards that are available, whereas the other core strongholds value will not change.

3 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

What if there were a military equivalent of Kachiko and you had cavalry on it? You now have a threat that punishes people that defend. So the attack goes unopposed and if your tries to attack back militarily you could move it in an still use the ability on defense. The ceiling will rise with the inevitable powercreep because as it's as good as the cards that are available, whereas the other core strongholds value will not change.

If you're making up units, you can't say other strongholds' values will not change. Want me to make up a unit that procs a bonus when you steal an honor from your opponent for Scorpion? I mean, come on.

As of today, the Unicorn stronghold is objectively the worst in the game.

9 minutes ago, caseycheesecake said:

Exactly. Using the stronghold to prevent honor loss or to trigger spyglass is the best use. That's terrible. Add in lowest honor and lowest defense? Haha! Terrible stronghold.

So it's terrible when I defend politically with Altansarnai, then drag her in on a military offensive and still be able to use her kill ability when I break a province? Its terrible that I can drag in a bowed defender and then use their base stats to Rout or Policy Debate my opponent?

I could spend all day going over examples of good ways to use the ability, but, that's not really the point, which you seem to be missing.

If you can't see the potential for the Unicorn stronghold to get better as the card pool gets deeper (something no other core stronghold can boast) then we really aren't discussing anything.

Maybe we should start with you explaining to me how the Unicorn stronghold doesn't have potential for growth as the game grows or explain how the other strongholds will improve at the same or better rate?

48 minutes ago, caseycheesecake said:

If you're making up units, you can't say other strongholds' values will not change. Want me to make up a unit that procs a bonus when you steal an honor from your opponent for Scorpion? I mean, come on.

As of today, the Unicorn stronghold is objectively the worst in the game.

Again you miss the point. Making a charcter that triggers when the stronghold is used is not the same as making any strong character that can be played by Unicorn. Your comparison would be equivalent to Ide Trader or Spyglass as those trigger when the stronghold is used.

If Kachiko's stats were flipped and her ability was for military and she was given Cavalry instead of courtier and then you painted her purple, slapped a pONI mon on her and called her Kamoko instead, she would already be better than Kachiko, beacause of what the Unicorn stronghold could do with that.

The reason why the Unicorn suffers is because design has to rein in the Unicorn characters (pun not intended) because of how they could interact with the stronghold. That is why the Unicorn characters generally lack raw stats and/or good abilities. Its not like the characters are great and the stronghold is holding them back.

Would a stronghold that allowed move in and out be better? Of course. Would it be better if it had more province strength or granted more starting honor? Sure. Would it be better if it could bting in any character in military and political? You bet. But now you just doomed the Unicorn to the worst characters ever for all time because that stronghold is no longer balanced.

51 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

The reason why the Unicorn suffers is because design has to rein in the Unicorn characters (pun not intended) because of how they could interact with the stronghold. That is why the Unicorn characters generally lack raw stats and/or good abilities. Its not like the characters are great and the stronghold is holding them back.

Phoenix just got a new stronghold. I'm assuming Unicorn will as well - possibly as early as April. You're telling me the reason Unicorn suffers is because of a stronghold that could very well be replaced within 6 months? That's the reason they generally lack raw stats or good abilities?

11 minutes ago, caseycheesecake said:

Phoenix just got a new stronghold. I'm assuming Unicorn will as well - possibly as early as April. You're telling me the reason Unicorn suffers is because of a stronghold that could very well be replaced within 6 months? That's the reason they generally lack raw stats or good abilities?

Getting a new stronghold doesn't replace the old one. I'm not commenting on whether or not Unicorn stats have been cut due to interaction with the stronghold, as I have no idea on that one. However, if they get a new stronghold, the old one remains legal as well, so any knock-on effects from it must still be accounted for.

1 hour ago, caseycheesecake said:

Phoenix just got a new stronghold. I'm assuming Unicorn will as well - possibly as early as April. You're telling me the reason Unicorn suffers is because of a stronghold that could very well be replaced within 6 months? That's the reason they generally lack raw stats or good abilities?

Replaced? That's a pretty big leap. Does the new Phoenix stronghold replace the core one? Maybe. We don't know if the cards from the clan packs will be evergreen or not. We don't know how long it will take for all the clans to get their clan packs. We don't know what the new Unicorn stronghold will do.

We do know that the core strongholds will be around until core rotation (years from now) or errata/ban so yeah I'd say that design is clearly working around the potential of the core Unicorn stronghold.

The new strongholds will give extra options for deck designs, not replace the previous strongholds. Maybe long run some of the cards will cycle out... but not any time soon.

And a move in ability is powerful, particularly with the straightening cards/abilities that Unicorn have available (I say this as a Phoenix player who splashes Unicorn for almost exactly this reason). Anything that allows multiple use of a powerful card i.e. the ability to use a character multiples times in a turn. Tonu is just pointing out that the limitation of the Unicorn stronghold at the moment is that the characters available to use multiple times in more than one conflict are limited and not particularly powerful; once that changes the Unicorn stronghold could become a powerhouse.

Seeing as the new Phoenix pack will be providing Phoenix with more cards (at least one) that key off superior glory (like Haughty Magistrate mechanics), I doubt it will be losing favour on release. If Crab continues to be strong, maybe the core stronghold will remain in favour.

On 04/01/2018 at 5:02 PM, Hordeoverseer said:

Seeing as the new Phoenix pack will be providing Phoenix with more cards (at least one) that key off superior glory (like Haughty Magistrate mechanics), I doubt it will be losing favour on release. If Crab continues to be strong, maybe the core stronghold will remain in favour.

The new stronghold will become the basis for the Shugenja/ Spell based Conqueror decks... the old stronghold will continue to be used for the Courtier, Glory based honour/dishonour type control decks.

On 19/12/2017 at 6:39 PM, Schmoozies said:

sub themes that were less explored

Crane - Duelist/Daidoji expansion. Right now its mostly honor tricks so a push of the duelist and the military arm of the Crane might be nice. For a large "creature" type release I'd go with Kakita Toshimoko, show why he was the most feared duelist in the Empire or a Foxwife spirit could work.

Yeay, in another way I actually try to build a Bushi (Doji if possible) deck (see my name), elite warriors of honor, core guardians of the Crane clan. But I have to put in some Lion.

You know, after seeing a lot of debate lately about Policy Debate, I think that the Crane Clan Pack should be focused on dueling, but mostly to give all clans some ways to counter them. Things like:

-Duelist Trainer (character with the ability:)

Interrupt: When an honor bid is revealed during a duel - raise or lower your bid by 1.

-Kakita Yojimbo (conflict character with:)

Interrupt: When one of your characters is challenged to a duel - Put this character into play. He becomes the challenged character instead.

-Dishonor on your cow (name in progress, neutral event)

Interrupt: When one of your characters is challenged to a duel - Dishonor that character. The duel does not initiate. Cancel the effects of the duel.

-Niten daisho (attachment with +2 MIL)

Reaction: After a duel initiates, but before setting up the honor bid - play this attachment on a character participating in the duel. (Not sure on this one, maybe after setting up the bid but before revealing will be better)

Maybe the wording is not entirely right, but my point is making some cards that make your opponent think twice before challenging you a duel, and making the bidding mechanic actually a risky bid, and not as predictable as it is now. I think that dueling desperately needs a rework, but instead of make it changing the rules, just through cards that interact with the Duel Timing sequence. And the Crane pack can be perfect for that.

I agree! When Policy Debate isn't a sure win, it gets a lot less appealing. Which has always been the bane of dueling (in the old game) - if you aren't bully-dueling, then why bother ?

But when dueling becomes a sure win, it loses all it's interest as a bidding mechanic...

It is when the guys throwing the duels become unbeatable than dueling becomes a NPE for the opponent.