Games Workshop Studios: Nottingham, England, May,1990:

Maxim Gatling: "Why aren't there any female Space Marines?"

Rick Priestly: (sheepishly) "Well, the sculptors haven't figured out how to put a female in Powered Armor and still make her look...well, feminine."

And now, you know the REST of the story.

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Solution: A corset + modeled chestplate to be looked at like a female's chest, and a 60% of the miniatures not using a helmet... You know, where I an armorer, I wouldn't bother with the central depression which makes it look like some sort of fetichist cosplay, it would look like a woman wearing a jacket...

Attila-IV said:

Genetics

I am actually devising a seperate Heresy of my own to compliment the Astartes. And to quench this issue before it ever has a chance to become one in my games. Note I acknowledge some may not be satisfied with my personal way of dealing with it. Do not truly care. No RP police fear here. ^_~

I basically thought of this problem long and hard and came up with a "Radical" Nunciate of Sisters of Battle, Calling themselves "Sanctimonialis Astartes" or Sisters of the Astartes.

They are NOT female Space Marines.

They are Sisters of Battle who have chosen to closer emulate the men who share the burden of the Orders Militant. In recogniztion of this they have negotiated (reasons written into their backdrop) with the Cult Mechanicus and are allowed to have trained a very few Tech Sisters. Who's duties mirror the duties of the men they have chosen to emulate. Also as the Sisters have a singular knowledge of the Black Ships. This Nunciate has chosen to begun utilizing Sisters Libraria, modeled after the Librarians the Battle Brothers utilize. Sanctionites chosen for this are groomed extensively. And every single one is Hypno-Doctrinated.

They use modified ranks combining things found in the Tyrannus Conclave's Astartes release with integral Sister skills.

Their lore is about 12 pages long and I think relatively well explains why they have gotten away with what they have on the Fringe as they have. They like several other "Radical" idealists in the Imperium are frowned upon by Loose Puritans and Mono Dominants alike. But their ferocity on the field has earned the grudging respect of some Chapter Masters. This has enabled them to operate in unison with the Astartes on some numerous occasions.

They do not receive implants, nor do they receive "seed". However, they receive extensive gene modification in their Ascended ranks (based off a modified version of the Cannoness write up I am working on) that put them in the league of Marines.

Many may ask. Why? Because I figured in a game that focused on roles that were Battle Brother specific, having the option for a Female player to have a dynamic in that group in those same integral roles was important to me as a GM. And so I decided that Sisters, Inquisitors and such were all nice, but I wanted to be able to cover the possibility one of my players may want to play a "Female Librarian" or "Female Tech Marine". Now I do not have to bend the lore of Space Marines to do this.

Nor am I butchering the lore of the Sisters. Radicals exist. Some go so far as to use Daemonic powers items and or servants in their quest, some fall prey to Xeno tech. I found it darkly ironic to have some Sisters fall to the ways of their own Imperium, and yet cross a line that made them Radicalss.

If anyone wants to snipe the idea feel free, also I can give me email to anyone who needs it to share the lore and alt ranks with.

Alexis

*smiles*

Well, that is interesting. But be advised: a psychic Sister of Battle is a little... strange. Not because there have never been one, but because only the Black Templars have more issues with psyckers. Take a look at the Inquisitor's Handbook, the entry about "denounced and condemmed" (I think it was written like that): essentially just for being able to figure out if she can trust someone (which is considered a little supernatural power), a sister of battle can be tortured and killed, treated as a witch (in an organizationcalled Witch Hunters...), and if she is lucky she might be rescued by an Inquisitor.

As for the tech-sisters, the only reference I know of this comes from Dawn of War: Soulstorm (the sister's builder unit is a techpriest, like the Imperial Guard one, but with white robes -thus a novice in the mechanicus! XD- several dendrites and a black shadow where his face should be). Aside from that, nothing is written than I know of. Taking into account the techmarines and the fact that the mechanicus shares some secrets with some people (nothing important: building techniques of hive cities with local construction industry so they don't need to be there 24/7) I don't see much against it.

The only tricky part could come from the organization of "the chapter": essentially, the Sisters of Battle came from the prohibition to the ecclesiarchy to "recruit, train and command men" (they recruited, trained and commanded women ^^), and I don't know if the ecclesiarchy will look good at an order of Sisters of Battle who, suddenly, change the way they are organized to a more Space Marine one (thus possibly endangering all the Sisters of Battle if some bureucrat founds a way to enforce the original edict).

I think it would be easier just to take a Sister of Battle, advance her to the level of a Space Marine (probably taking levels from Ascension too, Crusader, Hierophant and Storm Trooper might be the more interesting), and be done with it, but if you prefer to do that, hey, its your game ^^.

As I said in the first line of my post.

I am aware some people may not take to the way I handled it. But I really don't give two piles of poodoo. I have been playing Witch Hunter armies as long as I have been serious in the Tabletop. Started on Eldar and swiftly fell in love with both DH and WH armies. Am very well aware of their lore.

This Sisterhood is nothing shy of Radicalism. But I found it as I said ironic that they fell into Radicalism based on the Imperium instead of one of the enemy. And it works for what I want it to.

As you said, tis my game. And I find this preferable to house ruling in Female Marines.

Alexis

*smiles*

Let us now recall Doc Thunder's Black Widows, where Fabius Bile creates female CSMs as a bioweapon in the vein of genestealers.

Which, IMHO, was an awesome idea.

That said: I'll just hold my position that it's a long standing peice of fluff that makes no sense, has been violated by both GW sculptors AND the fan base (being THE number one most common fan request after 'bring back squats', 'give dark eldar a new codex', and 'please nerf/FAQ 'nids') and has been the subject of more heated threads then Doom of Malan'tai and Tactical Genius COMBINED and is the ONLY one that has absolutly no in game benifit one way or the other.

My personal one is just to use one of the Cursed founding chapters mutations is they turn into women as thier mutation, since technically it would be fluff kosher.

BaronIveagh said:

And yet here I am, like many, quite happy there are no female Space Marines. It may sound sexist, but I honestly wouldn't particularly be into Space Marines (or 40k by extension) if they were a part of it. I enjoy a fictional setting that hasn't homoginized the sexes in every possible way. So many have.

Hope I don't bring my raven gaurd successor chapter to any tournies you play at then, lol.

BaronIveagh said:

I'm not really into tournies. Takes the fun out of the game to me.

But if I saw you and you had a female Marine army I'd have a good laugh, and play you. As long as you had a good sense of humor about it. If you came at me like I should completely take your army seriously, well that might be different. I don't have anything against people doing stuff like that if they want. I'm just glad the official position on the matter is what it is.

First things first - I'm not an expert on the lore, most of my experience is playing Battlefleet Gothic, and that was with an Ork fleet (hundreds of battles, undefeated. I didn't win many, but I'm undefeated nonetheless )

This post could be put into the "How can this be a Viable RPG?" thread, as it has a focus on both this and that thread. This is because they have to make marines from other chapters work together. So there should, I feel, be an air of one-up-manship as each marine from a different chapter is trying to say that they are the best. Also, if the loyalty is like thus Emperor > Chapter > Deathwatch team, then there should be some inter-party conflict as their personal motivations come first.

So, by now you may be wondering why this is in this thread:

The reason is thus: I intend to run a game where you CAN play a female space marine. There is a Caveat to this of course. This is a major plot point for a campaign that focuses on the personalities, loyalties of the Space Marines. This campaign WILL have inter party conflict. Now, how and why do I dare spit in the face of canon? Simple, long ago there was a project to create female Space Marines. This, of course, was secret and a very long time ago. The whole thing took place in a long forgotten and remote part of the empire (sound familiar?). During the process of the campaign, and maybe linked to the Rogue Trader game I am running now, the Deathwatch party, or whoever will find a link to this long lost project.

So, a rough campaign synopsis follows:

- The party of mixed chapter space marines get inducted into the Deathwatch

- Rivalries, friendly or otherwise, develop amongst the different orders

- The aforementioned plot hook gets found out about

- The group has to locate this. Which is, of course, located deep within a xeno-infested area. Cue copious amounts of fighting to get to said MacGuffin, possible infiltrating a space hulk or two.

- Upon finding the MacGuffin, or at least info about it, the party realizes that the project is something known as a Space Marine Matriach - a female that can give birth to humans with implants pre-formed in them, yes child space marines. Being a loyal member of their chapter, they realize that whichever chapter has this would have an advantage over the others. Giving birth to full fledged marines would make replenishing losses easy. The party members, each want their chapter to benefit, but they have to work together to get there, or none of them will.

- Cue a Stand-off/inter party plotting as each decides how to make their chapter benefit

- Upon actually locating the MacGuffin, they realize just what it is, the aforementioned female Space Marine Matriarch. There is ONLY one in suspended animation (which is possible because of a sus-an implant -I did some research). CUE THE MUSIC, in this case, stolen from Highlander, Queen - Princes of the Universe. Yes, there can be ONLY one. The party fight over who gets this, but, maybe there are other chapters looking for this too. Lots of enemies and conflict to make a campaign out of. Possibly needed a device that imprints thought patters to be used, and possible a genetic sample (mind out of the gutters people) to be provided resulting in the death of said character, but a bright future for their chapter (assuming they get away with the prize)

- Effectively, this process will replace the male space marine character with an (almost) exact copy of their character, other than it being female. There will be other memories/programming where they know their purpose and think of themselves as always being a female. Depending if the rest of the party survives, the campaign will continue as the party has to escape from the space hulk, or if only the survivor is there, which is a possibility, the rest is told in a Epilogue.

-If successful at the end of the campaign, the Matriarch will usher in a new era for said chapter, as it provides both male and female Space Marines, with pre-formed implants. This chapter, and this chapter alone can have FEMALE Space Marines. fiddly details to be determined in the campaign of course - this is a rough guide line as stated.

I want this to be a serious campaign. While the Matriarch is female, they will not be sexualized overtly. They are going to have the proportions of a Space Marine, Size, and bulk (well, maybe not as bulky) but they will look like a warrior through and through. This will allow, if characters need be replaced to have members of one chapter play female marines eventually. The idea is to give an over-arching story set in the 41st millennium that gives the players a chance to have a huge impact on said universe, and a lasting legacy with long standing rewards for any future campaigns I do.

Also, if done right, things can be left open - what happens to the Matriarch? Does she and her allies branch off to have their own chapter? How do the powers that be feel about this? Will the chapters go to war over this? How can more Matriarchs be made? Is this even possible? Will she give birth to a successor? What does this mean for the Imperium of Man? Will the dead Emperor be replaced with an living Empress? Lots of possibilities.

Atheosis said:

I don't take anything seriously. But it's great fun to needle the people who are really serious about how male space marines are. Remember, folks, they don't get a viagra implant.

BaronIveagh said:

Heh, they're actually more like warrior eunuchs than anything.

now I remember a battle report from a friend. It was three armies (Ultramarines, Sororitas and Space Wolves VS Chaos). Marine turn:

• Space Wolves player: "Ok girls, let's go for them".

The Ultramarines player begins to move his troops to engage the enemy

The Sororitas player frozens for a second

The Space Wolves turn and begin to massacre the Ultramarines

The Sororitas try to make their damned best to keep the chaos at bay, deploying Fusion Grenades to block advance routes and all (that age, Seraphims used to have them, limitless I think.... It was 8 years ago, give or take).

At the end of the battle, the Ultramarines where all dead. I think the Chaos was defeated, but can't really remember...

Sounds like you could get a lot of mileage from that plot. Especially if any of your players try to destroy the Matriarch, since it probably would have taken Heretical science to produce, or at least they might feel trying to mimic the Emperor's work with your own impure hands is blasphemous.

Be even better if when they woke the Matriarch up, they find out the women weren't exactely volunteers for the procedure, and hundreds of women died in the experimentation. And now you expect her to be some sort of a brood mare? The roleplay as people either sympathise with her, and yet try to convince her that her contribution to the Empire would be too great to allow personal matters to interfere, or demand that she comply and that all of it was justified in the name of humanity would be interesting to see.

Well in my deathwatch game their will be a valkyre gene-seed to allow female space marines. This is mostly driven by the fact that i have a wife that RP's with us and would be really put out if she had to play a male character. To sum it up, i don't want to sleep on the couch

Well having played this game since rogue trader came out in the mid 80's i have seen a lot of stuff come and go from the Canon as the game has reinvented itself over and over, and frankly they allow much more aberant stuff than female space marines. Ultimately I think there are good ways to work women characters into a Deathwatch game: an ascended inquisitor is right at home, so is an assasin, or any other class. If you like purity to the canon, fine.

But really, the wh40k universe is a big place and entire chapters of space marines have disappeared. so there is room for expereimental chapters, maybe these experiments went wrong....But really, if it is the will of the emperor that a woman is destined to be a dark angel, then who can dispute it? As a GM this could be a very interesting plot hook. So if you have a woman player in your group (or several) I say give them the option: its your game you are free to be as sexist or feminist as you want. opinions ont his forum, including mine, are worth a hill of beans. As a gm you must do what makes the game fun for your group.

Okay, in the 40K setting, there are no female Astartes, but if you have a player who is dead set on portraying a woman, this is Deathwatch, you work for the Inquisition.

The Sisters of Battle have only limited genetic enhancements, but their wargear and training are up to Astartes standards. A Battle Sister on a death-oath makes for a potent Inquisitorial Agent. Imperial Assassins are horrifying powerhouses with extensive gene-mods, and while the temples usually favor one gender over another for various arcane, having-to-make-half-as-many-tabletop-assassin-model reasons, assassins can be of either gender.

A favorite, for me at least, would be a Psyker with the Templar Calix Elite Career from the Inquisitor's Handbook. The Templars are extremely rare, greatly feared and highly coveted and you could easily have one serving as the Inquisitor's eyes and ears in the field. They're not as phsyically powerful as a Marine, but their mental powers can more than make up for this, especially with access to disciplines like Biomancy and Telekinesis.

The lost Legions?

What if they were female, with female Mimarchs?

Azraiel said:

Thanks but im just going to let her and the other females in my group play female space marines and let all the diehard fan-boys throw fits over it. Its not the most off the wall thing ive ever done.

Two games ago I had a player who wanted to play a Tyranid. After some work we came up with a rogue tyranid that could shift between a human form and other tyranid types (genestealer, gaunt, ect...). After that i ran a game where a ordo malleus inquisitor and his team (which included eldar, Tau, and that tyranid) woke up the emperor and had to deal with the fallout of that.

In these examples i let these things happen because in all cases the players role played vary well and had fun playing (which is the point of playing in the first place). My stance on game building is this, story comes first, setting second, and rules third.

Logan Ambrose said:

Make her play a SoB...or get back in the kitchen and make you a sammich!

(just joking...though a sammich would be nice)

I have played the SoB, I want to play a Space Marine now... and you can go make your own damned sammich.

RosalindAmbrose said:

See what i get to put up with.

Logan Ambrose said:

This is a wise, wise man.

I would be inclined to keep the Space Marines male. Now what the forces of Chaos get up to. The heresy of a female Chaos Space Marine should suitably raise the hackles of good Emperor fearing Space marines. Obviously it just a game, play it the way you want, that's just my tuppence.