I think the actual crux of this issue is the choice of linguistic terminology used by adherents to both sides.

I actually further believe that despite semantics appearing the contrary we are all basically agreeing on 3 basic premises.

1. GW Fluff currently does not support the idea of canonical female marines. Again this refers to canonicity by GW.

2. Having said that, nothing is stopping GMs from personally modifying the game to suit their tastes. (despite the people going on about no longer 40k....bs is all I can say on that, its no less 40k than your 40k and any modifications you have made to the world, your modifications aren't canon and neither are the femme marines Equally, not canon.)

3. Though accepting of the fact that we "can" modify the game to allow for female marines, it is a divide in the fanbase and those who choose to delve into said realms should be prepared to deal with the derision such a change may cause in people we may otherwise agree with.

I have seen people against female marines say things with this at their heart, seen people for female marines say it, and I think the semantics of this issue are clouding our ability to speak to one another on the matter civilly.

Alexis

*smiles*

PS- There are no female marines in my games, I use a heretic order of S.O.B.s to fill that void, and it suits my needs, but I am completely nonplussed by the idea of female marines in other peoples' games.

Tell me, honestly, that in your first exposure to 40K you looked at a table filled with awesomely painted models depicting swarms of aliens overrunning the valiant armored and fearsome marines, and thought "Meh, that's dumb" up until a guy walked up to you and said "Hey, all the people in armor are MEN!" at which point you said "Wow, that's totally cool!"

Honestly.

Are you serious? Are you seriously trying to tell me that I at 12 was conscious of gender issues enough to only accept warriors when they were male? REALLY?

Wow, that's .... an interesting perspective.

If we have to get into one of these versus threads:

I got into 40k when I was 12 although I'd played heroquest and space crusade before hand. What drew me were the aliens (genestealers) and the cool looking armour. I also loved the idea of a Games Workshop (which to me at the time conjured up a dimly lit wooden cottage with people pottering away at making awesomeness).

I didn't have much money so would go into the local hobby shop and just look at the models in the blisters. My favourites at the time (as they had a limited selection) were the missile launcher space marine and the thunder hammer terminator. They looked cool to me because they looked like robots.

When I actually got 40k (with my own money saved up) I discovered what they were and although I liked the space wolves (because WOLVES AND AXES AND BEARDS AND VIKINGS ARE COOL!) I was drawn to the eldar. The old Jes Goodwin aspects, the Banshees and Scorpions.

So that's my 40k origin story.

I could go on about how when I was a kid I never had crushes on female actors in movies - except Ripley from Aliens. Because she kicked ass and (Freud would love this) reminded me of my mother - who also kicks ass. Never liked any of the prissy girls, only those carrying guns. The Aliens series was my favourite for a very long time. Or that I have 3 younger sisters who grew up playing soldiers with me and watching only the GOOD cartoons - Transformers, Dino-Riders, Batman TAS, TMNT, Exo Squad, Mysterious Cities of Gold, Astroboy, Voltron and so on.

But I think that you either have a very warped view of the world or are doing Gender Studies at the moment and see gender choice in everything. There are probably other options but I'm still a little wierded out about the certainty with which you seem to think that the gender of space marines played a role in my liking 40k.

Hellebore

This is an interesting discussion. If I'd want to incorporate Space Marinettes (Space Marionettes?) in my game, I'd do it the easy way: Imperium has lost much of its technological knowledge (and prowess), and nobody seems to be too able to keep up steady research. However, the idea that there is would be no (significant) progress made anywhere is astoundingly silly, considering the size and variety of the Emperor's domain. Unless humanity's ability for creativeness and science has been more or less permanently stamped out during the last ten millennia.

Consequently, it wouldn't be impossible to discover a faction, a planet, perhaps even an Astartes Chapter, which has been dabbling in forbidden knowledge and tampering with the geneseed to make it compatible with females. Heretical, to be sure, and a real secret to keep from the Inquisition et al. Not very common stuff, either. But still within the realms of possibility, which really is all that is needed. Yes, GW says there are no male Marines. I'm saying how there could be.

For me, that would be a rather interesting premise, which would allow a woman to join the bad-ass, exclusive club of ex-men. And it wouldn't hurt the canon really too much, because there would remain the things that really make Imperium tick: the wholehearted fear of the unknown, the weird, and the non-sanctioned.

Of course, the disadvantage is that it would be forbidden. Which again makes it interesting. A whole Chapter of mixed genders, that's some good drama right there.

I don't personally believe that the reason why GW decided to make the Marines all-dudes has anything to do with it somehow being objectively a better choice. logical. Given the technology they use to make the Marines, they'd have no trouble putting a bit more muscular mass on women, if that's the issue. No, I think that the designers, being guys, simply couldn't imagine their girlfriends or wives or whatever their female ideal is, walking around in hulking power armour, decimating countless enemies with their heavy bolters, spewing battle-brotherly rhetoric in a gruff voice. Let's be honest here, Marines are the epitome of macho BS, and having gurls doin' it can certainly feel wrong to some people.

Plus there's the canon it clearly violates, unless you come up with explanations.

But that's just me. Your mileage may, as ever, vary.

Creating female marines would not be too terribly difficult; the existing technology is there, but everybody's too freaked out about the idea of how their glowy **** works to do anything about it. All it takes is a curious techpriest/heretek(or ten working together...) to become determined enough to start tampering with things and tailor the genetic modification process to the female physiology.

Artemesia said:

My thoughts exactly. With less words.

To keep rambling about the gender issue, there is of course the obvious thing: Space Marines are the dark future version of the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaller. The best and holiest warriors the Occident had to offer, almost wholly independent as organisations answerable only to the Pope, clad in expensive armour, defending the Holy Land from the hordes of infidels, and a single knight was believed to be equal to ten normal soldiers... And not too many women accepted as members, either.

Artemesia said:

You can find my exact same thoughts far earlier in the thread. The point is that the unreasonable people demand female SPACE MARINES not female black project tech heretic geno soldiers, or non Imperial human super soldiers. They must specifically be space marines, created by the emperor, referred to as the adeptus astartes, descended from a primarch etc. It's not good enough to simply be as good or better than one, they have to BE one or the struggle wasn't won.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Assuming that's how it'd go down, people would then argue if they're actually space marines or not due to the process not being officially sanctioned.

Some people feel the need to ***** about the silliest things.

UncleArkie said:

Actually this is where you are wrong. The RT book did not have "an illustration of a female in a power armour, that later became the sisters. The aformentioned female marines where retconned out of the setting when the primarchs where invented". I happen to have the orginal RT book and the caption to that illustartion had a afull page of text describing the female in power armor as a member of ecclesiarchy-lead organization of Adepta Sororitas. There was no retconning as the Adepta Sororitas were there all along.

Sandepande said:

Funny sidenote, Knights Templars started as an independent, privately funded organization which later opted to swear fealty to Pope. From the early popal letters you can find out that after that the catholic church started to impose several limitations on the recruitment of Knights Templars. When Latin Rule was imposed in 1129 the article 53 forbid them from "adding more sisters to the order" and thus the custom of recruiting females to Knights Templars was discontinued. What happened to the existing sisters is unknown. However, as Latin Rule had a whole load of other recruitment standards and it *is* known that earlier recruits who did not meet the new standards were allowed to continue serving untill deadth or retirement it also stands to reason that this was the case with existing sisters. Also worth noting is that the only reason stated in article 53 for not accepting more sisters was "that the flower of chastity should always be evident among you".

Knights Hospitallers, however, never had females untill the modern ages (I think it was 1990s) when Sovereign Military Order of Malta started to ordain "dames" in addition to "knights" into the order.

Isn't the easiest way just to make a genetically enhanced female inquisitor in Power armour?

Reclusiarch said:

Not only easiest but also including such character would add a great plot-device to otherwise a bit one-dimensional kill-squad makeup.

I know that she was an Adepta from the beginning, but that drawing is pulled out of the closet by so many people as "see a girl marine" even if she is wearing a habit... And shooting a member of the rainbow warriors, wonder if they are one of the expunged founding chapters *ponders*. Now where did I put my own copy of the book.

Lets see...Imperial Assasins, Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors...lots of options.

I think the best possible choice would be in a female inquisitor character who is attached to the kill-team for whatever reason. Other possibilities would like in a Sister of Battle or some other Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader character hopped up the right XP level.

That being said, the golden rule of gaming is simply that if a given rule doesn't work for your game, you should change it. Always better to err on the side of everyone having fun, than on the side of 100% unerring adherence to the canon.

I've discussed the matter with my group, and our one female player is one of the sort who usually plays male characters and is incredibly excited about playing a space marine. In my case at least, the question of female characters isn't even a concern. (Perhaps I am more fortunate than some. :-) )

The only problem with having all these Sisters of Battle or female Inquisitors or Officio Assassinorium is that they aren't actually part of the Deathwatch (not even the Inquisitor). The Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of Ordos Xenos and thus the Ordos and the Deathwatch have two different functions (though they would dove tail in on some points). The Sisters of Battle wouldn't ever be seconded permanently to the Ordos Xenos - that's not what they do. I find the idea of Imperial Assassin permanently seconded to anyone to be a bit silly (even Inquisitors) since they act solely on the orders of the High Lords of Terra and aren't anyone's bully boy.

In any event, any non-Marine will find it difficult to keep up with genetically engineered superhumans, especially at higher levels. The might of an Inquisitor is in their influence, not their pure martial power. A Sister of Battle is basically a Storm Trooper in power armour and so will peak at a considerably lower level than a Marine. An Imperial Assassin is only really good at their one thing and that's it. They train in one area and one area alone, revolving around the unction of killing a target. None of them are equipped to deal with a combat in a Thunderhawk onto a Hive Ship, for the purpose of anhillating a Norn Queen or something like that. Only Deathwatch are truly equipped to do that.

And unfortunately for all you politically correctness junkies, Marines are male, not female. I guess you'll just have to build a bridge and get over it.

And also, women wouldn't be as good for the purpose of making super soldiers as their bodies are nowhere near as well equipped as guys are. A guy's body is 40% muscle, compared to 23% for women. Guys have much more of the hormones (testosterone, etc) that you would need for the radical transformation that a Space Marine undergoes. Sure women can be as skilled as bloke but in the end, body chemistry doesn't lie. Blokes are much better equipped by virtue of their physiology than women for warfare.

@carrotcolossus

I agree and I disagree. I agree on the simple scientific facts that guys are better equipped musclewise... But thats the average. Not the top-of-the-world series. At Olympic games level the difference in endurance and power is far, far less than in average. Also, women react to stress and pain differently from men. Funny little thing: When adrenaline rushes you actually become less accurate in fine-motorics like aiming firearms. With less testosterone women have less prominent adrenaline rush and tend to react more passively under it while men tend to be more aggressive. However, the downside is that while men may attack faster they also suffer more from the adverse effects and thus are less accurate under stress. Other interesting thing is that under stress men actaully bceom worse in judging behaviaorial signs while women become noticably better. Thus women are better equipped to guess what the enemy is doing next.

During the Age of Swords raw power, attacking instinctively and ability to carry more weight was a clear advantage for men. During the Age of Great Equalizer (firearms) its far from clear who is really better to bring into a gunfight. I at least don't mind having a female partner when going out on patrol.

carrotcolossus said:

Funny that you should say that, since in the Deathwatch introductory adventures Final Sanction - Oblivion's Edge there is a Callidus Assassin who is seconded to to Ordo Xenos and is pretty much equal to Marines... But hey, you don't have to use the FFG version of the universe either.

Polaria said:

Alas, gone are the days (2nd edition 40k) where Imperial Assassins were flat-out superior to even Astartes captains at both range and in melee.

@carrocolossus: Sure, a Vindicare specialises in sniping, but he's more than capable of tearing a man's head off with his bare hands... the whole "X is specialised to be really good at a particular thing; thus they must be utterly feeble at everything else" is a fallacy I don't like seeing applied. I've seen people tar Aspect Warriors and Officio Assassins with that brush too often, and it rings false every time.

Polaria said:

I don't doubt that in some situations women can outperform men in combat but if we're talking about who is better physiologically at handling a massive genetic reconstruction of your system, men clearly will be better as they start off at a superior position. And if you look how sports work, I think if you were to include women permanently in some of the more physical forms of football (rugby, Australian Rules football, gridiron [what we call American football in Oz]), they would get thumped. I know you occasionally have women face men in tennis or whatever but if a guy is a 110kg and he tackles a 80kg woman, she's going to get crushed.

I know the feminists of the world would like us to think there is no difference between men and women but in the end there is. How our brains work, how our bodies develop - there are significant differences and in the case of creating genetically engineered superhumans, where there would be a reasonably high mortality rate from the process anyway, men would have a better outcome.

Funny that you should say that, since in the Deathwatch introductory adventures Final Sanction - Oblivion's Edge there is a Callidus Assassin who is seconded to to Ordo Xenos and is pretty much equal to Marines... But hey, you don't have to use the FFG version of the universe either.

Yeah I know there is one but all the stuff in the 40k rulebook basically states that they get sent out at the request of the High Lords for particular missions and very sparingly so it just seems a bit stupid that one can just wander around the galaxy with an Inquisitor (I blame Ian Watson for his stupid Chaos Child series of books, that were totally crap anyway).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Except a Vindicare wouldn't kill his target like that. They wait for how ever many weeks outside a public venue then pops up, pulls the trigger, blows the guy's brains out and off they go. If they can tear someone's head off with their bare hands, it certainly isn't borne out in the 40k rules. An Eversor assassin however could tear someone's head off but then they work differently. I wouldn't want to get into a fist fight with a Vindicare but to say that they are as skilled as an Eversor or a Marine for that matter just isn't true.

Aspect Warriors are specialized - each Temple reflects one aspect of Khaine. I don't know how you can say that they aren't. Every bit of fluff about them speaks to their specialization, as do their rules in 40k.

For my one female player its not a problem to play Brother and if it was, I’d make Adeptus Sororitas for her w/o any problem. Stay flexible ppl, rpg is a game of imagination :-)

The one issue that I find interesting with this unkillable thread is that it tacitly ignores the ultimate caveat when it comes down to 40k: for every statement, for every interpretation, there is a silent "for me" in there somewhere. Despite the previous statements of people like Marc Gascoigne, it's also interesting to note that we seem to have seen a resurgence of "Revisionism," or the idea that for both 'fluff'/background and 'crunch'/rules (whatsoever is your preference of terminology) that "new is true," or what is published in the later material automatically overwrites the older materials. This is a phenomenon that seems to go around every few years and normally leads to bouts of "argubates" at best, flame wars at worst.

40k canon—which is to say the published body of material since the inception of 40k and that is produced or otherwise supported by GW through one of their license holders (and not the fan stuff, just to be clear, regardless of its relatively quality)—has ever been a broadly superficial look at the universe, with occasional bits of deeper insight that, despite that, must always be questioned since it is produced on the basis that it is all "half truths and half lies." As the 40k hobbyist reads through this material, different bits "resonate" with their own preferences such that, in the long term, anyone that looks deeper into the material will ultimately construct their own interpretation of that 40k universe. After all, if all of it is truth and all of it is canon, then "there is no spoon" (or the spoon/canon is what you create for yourself). Maybe?

Yet there are all things that most fans of the 40k universe agree on. The Emperor exists (though some believe that is Horus or Malcador), the Space Marines are awesome (to varying degrees), the Eldar are dying (though to differing degrees and some more than others), the Old Ones were powerful (but varying power, and some believe they are multiple races and some believe that they are still the Old Slann), and so on and so forth. Even in the central "beliefs" there is still variation, or schools of thought.

Ultimately, the above is the reason that discussion can happen, and it also seems that it is the deliberate intent of the publishers. After all, if they want to present a more coherent story it wouldn't be too hard to figure one out. After all, the fans have been finding solutions to the problems of the 40k universe for years (they just get accused of having an interpretation that is unrecognisable!).

The female Space Marine argument, for me, is not one that I would spend too much time bothering about. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that, as per the 'fluff,' that the zygotes are intimately tied to the male physiology and biochemistry. I'm not too bothered to explore the concept that one of the Missing Legions, or both, were based around female physiology/biology. I don't need to see the "nun in power armour punishing the Space Marine" image from the original Rogue Trader (wargame) rulebook to be indicative of female Space Marines. After all, one could equally see it as a representation that power armour is a great leveller when it comes down to personal combat abilities and that perhaps Marines aren't quite as "awesome" as they have subsequently been made out to be (the "Spehs Mareens"). I don't need to see Space Marines as the epitome of combat potential in the 40k universe, capable of beating everything to a pulp with their bare hands, nor do I have a problem with female characters being able to defeat Space Marines (or xenos or whatever) in the game. I do not feel shackled to the interpretation or preconceptions of others, which includes them saying that my interpretation is "barely recognisable" because that it doesn't fit into the niche that they've placed 40k.

I do know that I tend not to allow cross-gender characters, given my experiences of such PCs in the past, but that doesn't mean that I could not be persuaded otherwise. Experience is, after all, something that continues to evolve. For a game of Deathwatch, therefore, I would not allow a female player to take on the role of the Marine, preferring to explore other options. This is not sexist or gender-insensitive, since a game focused entirely around succubi I would not allow a male player to take on the role of a succubus, but would explore other game- and theme-appropriate alternatives.

From a gaming perspective, I remain broadly uninterested in Gender Studies insofar as it applies to Deathwatch . On the other hand, when exploring gender issues in universe, bring it on.

Of course, that's just me. Everyone is willing to construct their own interpretation of the 40k universe and RP it in any way that they want. I'm up for discussion, but for now I think that I shall hope that this thread sinks into the depths.

/Kage

carrotcolossus said:

Actually if you look at original 40k rules all the Temple assassins (Callidus, Eversor, Culexus and Vindicare) have the same basic statline but different equipment and different abilities:

WS5/BS5 - Far better in combat skills than normal Space Marines and only slightly worse than Space Marine captains

S4/T4/W2 - As strong as Space Marines. Tougher than normal Space Marines but not as tough as Space Marine captains

I5/A3 - Far faster than normal Space Marines and same as Space Marine captains

This is actually an interesting thing since it pretty much confirms the original idea of fluff: Both Temple Assassins and Marines are hand-picked, genetically enhanced and basically superhuman. The thing is that Marines are still sort of "mass produced" whereas Assassins are tailor-made. Thus temple assassins are rare but tougher... to a point. The best of the best in Space Marines (something like 10 best guys of every chapter) are tougher and better, but normal marines fall below assassins in skills because assassins biomods and genetherapy are tailor-made for that individual only.

Second thing is that although Vindicare would prefer to kill his targets by sniping he might not always have the chance. He is basically alone, deep inside enemy territory and might have to kill quite a few people to reach his target so he has to be trained and equipped to deal with myriad of different scenarios that come up.

carrotcolossus said:

Aspect Warriors are Eldar. Xenos. Not human. I don't think musing on them will contribute anything significant to discussion about humans and Imperial way of warfare.

carrotcolossus said:

Same basic profile, and Imperial Assassins of any variety have shared a single profile in any edition of 40k.

Similarly, look at the Vindicare Assassin rules in Ascension - they've got access to skills and talents enough to make them more than capable in close combat using nothing but their hands, to the point where they're on par with the Astartes.

carrotcolossus said:

If you had read my post, rather than commenting on what you wanted it to say, I never claimed that Aspect Warriors or Imperial Assassins weren't specialised. Merely that their specialisation doesn't prevent them being skilled and dangerous in other areas as well (remembering that specialisation in 40k is often as much an equipment factor as one of training - the fact that an Eversor can shoot the wings off a fly from 1000 paces means little when they're armed with a short-ranged pistol rather than a precision rifle... the difference is between what an individual is capable of doing and what they're equipped to do).

Howdy!

Woman can't be Space Marines, and Men can't be sisters of battle. Unfair? The reason there are no female Space marines is because there were no female Primarches. This is all about the Primarch gene seed not being rejected by the host. Which is why they start converting the future space marines around puberity and have a very high failure rate. The biologist in me reminds you that girls have an extra X chromosome instead of the boys Y, increasing the chance of failure. The game master in me reminds you and all of my players that we can work around alot of this with creativity and imagination. Interogators, Sisters of Battle, Clerics, Inquisitors, Assasins, Experiments, Tech Priests, living Saints, etc are all great work arounds. BTW I have 2 RL daughters that love this game, 1 is playing a female Sister of Battle trying to become a living Saint, and the other one is a male Dark Angels Devastator that loves the Dakka Dakka with her heavy bolter.

Thanks

P.S. As an actual US infantry Marine in real life I can personal attest the quality of a warrior has little to do with gender and everything to do with whats in your head, heart, and spine. BTW all Marines are brothers regardless of their gender. Semper Fi Brother Marines!