Illithidelderbrain said:
I'd prefer my group played their characters according to the background they provided, in the setting that has been presented, without some 20th century notions regarding equality or the perceived lack thereof. The setting is 41k, not 2k, and some theories about equality have been changed to reflect that.
Well said...
Kage
Not to bunch anyone knickers, but I like the idea of a female AA. after all i want to see my horn-dog player try to "tap that" NPC and find out it wont be as easy as a charm die roll and more like a bloody duel to see if he is "worthy of the honor" as it were. Anyone, anyone questions?
Sergeant Brother said:
The Wyzard said:
It's actually kind of a weird topic, and vastly beyond the scope of this thread, but I can't really criticize anyone for disliking double-standards as a matter of instinct.
I used to argue strongly against them (in undergrad I was a strident and effective critic of hate-crime laws specifically and, as another example, differential physical fitness requirements for female police or soldiers, etc.) So, I'd be hypocritical if I said something to the effect of "You should be totally cool with double standards!" Or different standards for different groups, or however you want to put it.
I changed my mind from a hard-line stance against them some time between my first and second year in law school, though, and now I see some value in them, when carefully applied. The reasons for that, though, are vastly beyond the scope of this thread and probably something that FFG doesn't want to see a flame-war erupt over (a sad possibility.)
Anyway, you can PM me if you want to get into the topic (as can anyone else). I won't be offended in the least if nobody does, of course.
Well, I do like to get into discussions on that sort of thing, unortunately, lately I've been in so many internet arguments that I'm a bit burned out on arguig over *** so I think I'm going to have to respectfully declines. Though I do have one question. If a male player in a game you were running said that he really really wanted to play a male Sister of Battle (a Brother of Battle as it were) and wanted to change fluff to make it allowable, would you let him?
I'd have to think about it, and it would depend a great deal on his reasons for wanting to do so. The most I can say is that I'd do my best to be fair. Obviously, the guy giving me a really good pitch would help his odds.
Does he like the mechanics? Is he doing it just to be contrary? Does he have a real liking for the Sisters' mythos or something? That last one would strike me as the most odd, since the SoB's big schtick is "nuns with guns,"* and so I'm not sure what other parts of the Order's character it is that would attract hypothetical-dude to playing one.
*My feeling on the Marines is that their schtick isn't so much all-male army (yes, that's canon, but it doesn't seem central to the concept) so much as post-human engineered-by-the-Emperor hyper-loyalist army.
Liam Kelly said:
Cam I suggest a thread hijack about recommending good beer. Dear Lord, if you want female SM have them, if you don't, don't, it's your game and your mates/partners.
By the way I like Guinness
I second the thread-jack. I also second the Guinness, preferably on tap.
-=Brother Praetus=-
The Wyzard said:
*My feeling on the Marines is that their schtick isn't so much all-male army (yes, that's canon, but it doesn't seem central to the concept) so much as post-human engineered-by-the-Emperor hyper-loyalist army.
Huh? A major part of their schtick most certainly is that they are all male. They are a fraternal order of super soldiers. Rank and file members are referred to as Brother . They are modeled after the warrior brotherhoods of human history who were all-male. It definitely is part of their schtick. In fact Sisters of Battle exist specifically as a female counter-point to the maleness of Space Marines.
Seriously if you want to have female marines in your game, cool, but please don't act like it isn't a complete and utter violation not only of the lore but the intent behind the lore...
The Wyzard said:
The Wyzard said:
*My feeling on the Marines is that their schtick isn't so much all-male army (yes, that's canon, but it doesn't seem central to the concept) so much as post-human engineered-by-the-Emperor hyper-loyalist army.
Like previous poster already pointed out, this is where you should read your lore. Adeptus Astartes are all-male religious order (yes, they do wear power armor and carry bolters, but they are still religious order).
To cut a long story short: Imagine Marines as catholic order of monks. No, they is no female monks any more than there is male nuns. They are gender-specific.
To further elaborate: This doesn't mean you can't play a female character in Deathwatch. There is plenty of female warriors in 40k universe and some of them can even kick SM ass. Just that you can't play a female Space Marine.
The whole concept of female space marine is as absurd as an eldar space marine or a tau space marine... Its not like space marines are humans (or females) any more than horses are donkeys.
Moreover, trying to adapt any sort of notion of modern equality into 40k is bound to fail. Its a fascist society where the profession, social status and fundamental "worth" of each person is decided purely by the governors and adeptus and vary hugely from planet to planet. The whole concept of "equality" (no matter if its gender, race, social class based or what) is simply considered waste of resources and heretical in extreme.
One thing that keep getting in the way of this debate is that I get a feeling that some of the "pro" female AA faction just keep flogging this from a I want this my way now and I want it to be canon. What is this obsession with canon? The setting is as pointed out several times fascist, playing a member of the inquisition is like playing a member of the gestapo, kgb or any other secret police in history, the only difference is that there is an actualy threat to all of humanity not just some deluded dictators paranoid dellusions.
Have we debated how its morally inappropriate for your characters to engage in torture, state sanctioned murder and the eradication of worlds in DH or the exploitation of native culture for personal gain and glory in RT?
The appeal of this setting is that we get to explore this dark side, this part of human society and history that we all (hopefully) want to distance ourselves from in everyday life, trying to twist the universe to be more PC is counter to the very idea, its a "punk" comment on society, just like judge Dredd.
How is it after 18 pages this Discussion is still going on there is no female marines but female Characters will be easy to Implement be the sisters of battle or Assassins here ends the lesson
greystroke said:
How is it after 18 pages this Discussion is still going on there is no female marines but female Characters will be easy to Implement be the sisters of battle or Assassins here ends the lesson
Next lesson: Grammar & Punctuation!
Polaria said:
The Wyzard said:
The Wyzard said:
*My feeling on the Marines is that their schtick isn't so much all-male army (yes, that's canon, but it doesn't seem central to the concept) so much as post-human engineered-by-the-Emperor hyper-loyalist army.
Like previous poster already pointed out, this is where you should read your lore. Adeptus Astartes are all-male religious order (yes, they do wear power armor and carry bolters, but they are still religious order).
To cut a long story short: Imagine Marines as catholic order of monks. No, they is no female monks any more than there is male nuns. They are gender-specific.
To further elaborate: This doesn't mean you can't play a female character in Deathwatch. There is plenty of female warriors in 40k universe and some of them can even kick SM ass. Just that you can't play a female Space Marine.
The whole concept of female space marine is as absurd as an eldar space marine or a tau space marine... Its not like space marines are humans (or females) any more than horses are donkeys.
Moreover, trying to adapt any sort of notion of modern equality into 40k is bound to fail. Its a fascist society where the profession, social status and fundamental "worth" of each person is decided purely by the governors and adeptus and vary hugely from planet to planet. The whole concept of "equality" (no matter if its gender, race, social class based or what) is simply considered waste of resources and heretical in extreme.
I agree with this. This is the reason I don't like female Astartes, because I like sexism in the setting. I like racism in the setting. I like all sorts of political incorrectness in the setting, in fact for me that is a large part of the appeal of the setting. I care less about individual points of canon and more about how particular issues change the feel of the game - and making any sort of gender-equality point in the setting really kind of defiles the themes of the game in my mind. I even feel that way when it comes to gender equality in other Imperium institutions when it is supported by the fluff.
Sorry dyslexia is pain in the ass I should have used word to type the post
UncleArkie said:
One thing that keep getting in the way of this debate is that I get a feeling that some of the "pro" female AA faction just keep flogging this from a I want this my way now and I want it to be canon. What is this obsession with canon? The setting is as pointed out several times fascist, playing a member of the inquisition is like playing a member of the gestapo, kgb or any other secret police in history, the only difference is that there is an actualy threat to all of humanity not just some deluded dictators paranoid dellusions.
Have we debated how its morally inappropriate for your characters to engage in torture, state sanctioned murder and the eradication of worlds in DH or the exploitation of native culture for personal gain and glory in RT?
The appeal of this setting is that we get to explore this dark side, this part of human society and history that we all (hopefully) want to distance ourselves from in everyday life, trying to twist the universe to be more PC is counter to the very idea, its a "punk" comment on society, just like judge Dredd.
This is the answer to this entire pointless rant.......read it accept it....stop the useless bickering.......this is a DARK universe...note the key word there
I guess after this we will have to start a post on why its bad to mistreat POWs and other "alien" races....can't we all just get along with hugs and rainbows??
Now since we're on the subject of political incorrectness in 40K, how about -5 to Strength and +5 to Fellowship for female characters?
I find it a bit sad that one of the longest running threads in this forum is about female Space Marines. I mean really? There are no female space marines, period. This is a game about Space Marines; though you could include a female assassin/inquisitor/sister/etc. if you really wanted to.
It seems people think Black Industries/Fantasy Flight set out to make a sexist game; they didn't. They didn't write the fluff that the technology used to create Marines only works on males, Games Workshop did. As such, they set out to make a game about Space Marines. This meant they would ultimately end up with a "sexist" game in that regard.
I think my wife said it pretty good: "Oh, so since this game is all Space Marines, you have to be male right? I suppose if I ever played I could make a pretty long-haired Blood Angel though, that'd be fun."
Sergeant Brother said:
Now since we're on the subject of political incorrectness in 40K, how about -5 to Strength and +5 to Fellowship for female characters?
I think this could turn into a whole can of worms that no one wants to get into.......
Accept that there is no "right" answer and let this thread die?
Kage
Well, the 40K universe is pretty Fu**ed up, and there's a lot of sexism in it,
But seeing there are no male SISTERS of Battle, I see no reason for Female Battle Brothers.
Case and point.
Besides, they'd have to add ''Breasts" to the 'Breastplate' and that would be heresy.
HERESY!!!!!! HERESY I SAY!!!!!!
Not that you can't play a female in deathwatch, just not a marine. FFG has been quite helpful, giving us RT and Ascension and now Deathwatch and linking the three of them together to use all kinds of characters between them. I am quite content, but I do not speak for the females in this discussion.
I see no major obstacles to creating female Space Marines; if the Imperium can't do it, well, it only means that the Imperium can't do it. They don't possess the best track record when it comes to technological advancement. Besides, I suspect that there would be zero-to-nil difference between a girl Marine and a boy Marine; the whole process probably causes everyone to become raspy-voiced, square-jawed grunt, no matter how cute you were in your previous life.
However, I also think it is rather pointless to go against the fluff. The gameworld offers plenty of possibilities to play a character just as powerful, just as fanatical and just as well-equipped as your friendly neighbourhood Space Marine. Of course, she isn't a member of the exalted Adeptus Astartes (serious kudos deficit), but so what? A real toughie doesn't need that sort of reputation: she makes her own all by herself, not by just being a member of some gentlepersons' club...
As far as my understanding goes, Space Marines are essentially genderless. The process of becoming a marine leaves the subject sterile, they have no interest in women, they don't take brides or have a sex drive, etc. I would assume the same would go for female Marines(though replace women with men.... well...depending on the individual...). Their sole purpose is to wage war against the enemies of the Imperium, and I see no reason why female Space Marines should be any different.
It's not entirely true : if I remember right one of the chapters who fell to Chaos did so out how enjoying 'rest and relaxation' - which landed them into Slaanesh's service. Thought it might have lead to tinkering with the indoctrination and possibly the geneseeds themselves to shiled the Mariens from such temptation - if they don't give a fig about that sort of things, odds are they'll be harder ot lead astray.
They are still male, in a few of the HH (A Thousand Suns) books there are even hints that one of the rememberances has a relationship with one of the sons, now true this chapter does fall, but at this point the chapter considers itself ultra loyalist and sees the spaceweolves as savages who veer too close to the edge of superstition and heresy. Now with that said I would like to point to my earlier post, the point to the post that said, lets just let this thread die shall we and move on.
BloodAngelAzrael said:
Not that you can't play a female in deathwatch, just not a marine. FFG has been quite helpful, giving us RT and Ascension and now Deathwatch and linking the three of them together to use all kinds of characters between them. I am quite content, but I do not speak for the females in this discussion.
This may be true for your games, but you can't tell other people how to run their games.
If someone wants to incorporate female marines in their games, then that's theri choice. How can you tell them that they can't do that?
Fluff?
Sure GW have never, and will probably never make female marines, but GW does not get to dictate how someone plays a game based on their IP. I think everyone who wants to include female marines in their game should do so, and those who are against it should focus more on their own games and less on telling others what they can or cannot do.
UncleArkie said:
They are still male, in a few of the HH (A Thousand Suns) books there are even hints that one of the rememberances has a relationship with one of the sons, now true this chapter does fall, but at this point the chapter considers itself ultra loyalist and sees the spaceweolves as savages who veer too close to the edge of superstition and heresy. Now with that said I would like to point to my earlier post, the point to the post that said, lets just let this thread die shall we and move on.
And oh yes I almost forgot, Arihman grows wine in his spare time, I like the thousand sons more and more.
Jackal_Strain said:
BloodAngelAzrael said:
Not that you can't play a female in deathwatch, just not a marine. FFG has been quite helpful, giving us RT and Ascension and now Deathwatch and linking the three of them together to use all kinds of characters between them. I am quite content, but I do not speak for the females in this discussion.
This may be true for your games, but you can't tell other people how to run their games.
If someone wants to incorporate female marines in their games, then that's theri choice. How can you tell them that they can't do that?
Fluff?
Sure GW have never, and will probably never make female marines, but GW does not get to dictate how someone plays a game based on their IP. I think everyone who wants to include female marines in their game should do so, and those who are against it should focus more on their own games and less on telling others what they can or cannot do.
Well, yes, but then you wouldn't be playing 40K, but some other twisted dark alternate reality where women are called brothers.
technically they would still be playing 40k...just their version or take on the lore. i have no problem with female space marines, but i'm also one who will readily denounce canon for the sake of my players' enjoyment. so far, it would seem that the women at my table would happily play amped up sisters of battle or assassins. all that being said, as amusing and interesting as some of the arguments for or against female space marines are...i have to wonder how people would react if indeed FFG decided to go ahead and include them in this product? riots? chaos and mayhem? i doubt it will be so, but it's sort of funny to contemplate if it did. the nerdrage would be epic!
Indeed.
By the way, I'm not saying you can't have female space marines, just that it doesn't seem quite right for the universe.
Use them, if it makes your players enjoy the game and the story better, but I won't be using them in my games.
Remember, just because someone says something doesn't mean you have to agree. It's just their opinion.