So players can't play female characters? Or am I missing something? In a minis wargame that might not be much of an issue, but there are a lot of female roleplayers. And while I've seen a lot of guys play female characters, I've rarely seen the opposite. I do know one woman (Hi Mary!) who won't play if she can't play male, but she's the only one I've met like that.

My personal though about that is, that it depends a) on the setting and b) on the player of course. I personally play often the role of a female and know a few girls who like the idea to play a male, of course. In Deathwatch, the actors are the Space Marines and they are all male, but with a little work, you can bring female charackters into it, like a female Inquisitor. In most cases it depends on the GM and the Players, but I see there not much problems.

Nojo509 said:

That would seem to be correct, yes.I don't really see why it would be an issue, however. While SMs are technically male, it's not really an issue. Their modifications make them essentially genderless anyway.

My first thought is - so what?

It's a game about Marines. There are no female Marines. If there was a game that was entirely about Sisters of Battle, would people be complaining about that?

BYE

Simple solution: Add a female character from Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy who is leveled up to be "on par" with the Spacies. As far as that is possible for an unenhanced human. Could be an inquisitor, a techpriest an elite serf of a chapter etc. I would allow the same in a Sisters of Battle campaign, there can always be a male inquisitor or missionary.

Nojo509 said:

No

I have a terrible, terrible urge to write in block letters:

HA-HAH! TAKE THAT YOU POLITICALLY CORRECT-SHMORRECT BAESTURDS!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

On a serious note, though, if that is what results from the setting (and yes, it has been developed in the dark age of 80s, before the PC wave swept away such sexist nonsense), then there's no point in complaining about it. It would be on the absurdity level of complaining about "HIStory" instead of "HERstory".

All I'm going to say is this:

Under all that armour, who's to say there aren't a few women?

Considering the more kill crazy attitude of my female players I might just have female space marines and risk tipping the sexist male 40k verse on its ear.

I am between that and having a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader character with the group, especially with Ascension coming out. A Vindicaire Assassin or Inquisitor might fit well in the group.

Either way I have to come up with a solution - my gaming group is 50% female but I REALLY want to run this game.

fimarach said:

You could use the Adeptus Sororitas template from Inquisitor's Handbook for the female chraracters and give them circa 20,000xp to bring them to about the level of the Marines...

I don't really see why this gender thing is a huge issue, though. In real life I'm a hugely powerful telekinetic, but I don't INSIST on playing Imperial Psykers in DH. The essence of roleplay is exploring being something you're not. I bet your female players might ENJOY playing such a macho archetype as a marine...

Attila-IV said:

Years and years and years of background material?

If you want a power-armoured woman, you get Sisters of Battle.

There's no halfway point. Female Space Marines do not exist. The geneseed and other genetic modifiers that make Space Marines into Space Marines don't work with females.

The closest thing to female Space Marines would be female agents of the Officio Assassinorum. Their stats in the tabletop are pretty similar to those of Space Marines (guess they get mainly bionic augmentation but a similar brainwashing), except of course the power armour. If you want females in power armour you need Sisters of Battle or an inquisitor.

Concerning women playing Space Marines.... Well, to each his own, but for me the idea is similarly weird to men playing "Macho Women With Guns".

I would have to agree with several of the other comments here. The best way to handle this would be to use a Sister of Battle Template, Assassin, Rogue Trader, or an Inquisitor beefed up to be on "par" with the ability of the Space Marines. There simply are no female Space Marines. Space Marines may have at one time been actual men, but after all the alterations, they can barely even be called that. They are 7 to 9 foot tall bio-genetically enhanced men whose anatomy after the transformation could barely be called human. The tabletop version of Warhammer40k has had 25 years of background material written on the subject. You must understand. The Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and now Deathwatch role-playing games are based completely off of all that background material.

I wouldn't be upset by this, I think a barney bad-ass female Assassin would be a cool addition to the Deathwatch role-playing game. The rules from Dark Heresy, and/or Rogue Trader are easily adaptable.

Do people's groups really have an issue with this? Or is it just male GM's worried that their female players would have a problem with it? In my 14 years of GMing with a group of 3/4's female, I have never had a female player not play a battle frenzied psycho killer or a pyro-loving war wizard. And in both instances the gender barely even came up. Hell even in Rogue Trader my female players are the Arch-Millitant who has to be held back from murdering prisoners, and a navigator, who spends less time navigating and more time liquidating our enemies minds with her third eye.

I brought this issue up with some of them and one, being an even bigger 40k fan than me, nearly exploded with rage at even the thought of female space marines.

jareddm said:

I couldn't agree more.

Lightbringer said:

I think I love you

Dartneis-Is-Back said:

I knew this would happen if I hung around these forums long enough.

First off, I know I love you Lightbringer.

Second off - everybody pay attention, I'm only going to do this once:

After Sebastian Thor's reconstruction began, the legendary Ecclesiarch authorized a bold experiment amidst the newly consecrated Sisters Sororitas. In addition to the newly founded orders, a group of Sisters of the highest genetic purity and moral convictions were subject to a series of "modifications" with the intent of elevating them to a physical level roughly equivalent to the Adeptus Astartes...

This experiments were a success.

The Sororitas Exquisitus exist to safeguard the dark places where pilgrims travel thoughout the Imperium. They are frequently called upon to assist the Ordo Hereticus. While few in number, their determination, enhanced physiques, and legendarily unyielding faith have allowed them triumph against neary impossible odds time and again.

Woila, female marines. I didn't even break a sweat. Do not doubt my ability to create Chapters whole-cloth. I've done it before, I'll likely do it again.

Being true to cannon (lore) no. But as many people have pointed out over the years with many rpgs part of they fun of them is adaptability, IF your group is ok with it as a GM you have the right to allow it.

Of course the females being picked to become SM's would not be the dainty little ones, they would be ones raised on feral/deathworlds that would put many of our current day NFL males to shame. The geneseed's would remove any emotional/physiological differences since male SM's become nearly sexless the females would become basicly neutered to removing the chance of enhanced rage once a month (not true in most cases anyway but a risk that would be removed anyway...some enemies smell blood) and slowly removing the more obvious differences assuming the female SM wouldn't remove them herself such as the amazonian legend about removing a breast to better shoot a bow (untrue supposedly but still around as a legend).

They might also feel the need to compensate more with even more enhanced enthusiasm and valor to tasks, possibly feeling the need to prove even further that they deserve to have been given the blessing of a geneseed.

And if anyone even so much things of bringing them flowers or slapping the ass plate of their power armor there will be a bolt round ready to return the affection.

Lask said:

Once again:

That's. Not. How. It. Works.

The Geneseed itself is incompatible with females due to the original genetic markers and other technobabble of the Geneseed being intended for males.

Geneseed isn't something that works with everyone. There's a specific age timeframe which it can readily be accepted in for Aspirants, and even then there's a relatively high rejection rate among Aspirants to the Geneseed.

Lask said:

LOL! This happens only if you don´t know how to woo the (hypothetical) female SM! Flowers?...PFT! How about a nice packet of Ammo or a fashionable Bolter! There are ways to get inside their power armoured knickers!

Your idea about removing the breasts is irrelevant. Why remove them? An Armorum Impetor or a "Termi" is a rather effective "sports bra"!

The same with fertility. You have women (and their potential offspring, be it male or female) able to accept the sacred geneseed, raising the potential numbers of the Angels of Death? Giving humanity more elite warriors? You bet that someone would see that possibility. In addition you can´t smell anything, when the armor is sealed.

And slapping their bottoms: Anybody slapping the ass plate of a 9 foot armoured warrior is sure he can get away with it or alternately has a serious deathwish.

Gunter said:

As said before, that's not how geneseed works. The two geneseed "organs" mature in a human body (which doesn't necessarily have to be a Space Marine but may reduce quality) and are eventually extracted when they can be used to turn a young male into a Space Marine. Space Marines are made, not born.

True, it might theoretically be possible to adapt geneseed for a female body, but this is an age of calcified knowledge! Not only that, but tampering with holy geneseed is the realm of some of the foulest of heretic. And even so, Space Marines are infertile (though I've never seen it clear how this works, whether it's the chemical way or the knife way) so no Baby Angels of Death.

Kanluwen

I was just giving potential options for those that want to bend the rules to allow female SM's. As I sort of said in different words the first rule of all RPG's is that the rules/lore can be broken/changed if it suits the gm and group. It's been the basic first rule of pencil and paper rpgs since their inception. Books give the RAW (rules as written) but GM's are allowed to deviate as much or as little as wanted for their games. Don't try to publish an adventure/book around female sm's but if you want to have them in your game you can allow it. Hell if you want all chaos space marines to where Power TuTu's you can make it so in your games it won't be even near cannon but if thats what you and your group want and are fine with DO IT.

Old DnD had many creatures alignments as ALWAYS Evil but with the basic PnP RPG rule as a GM if you wanted a lawful good black dragon paladin it was 100% completely in your rights.

Many people fully into the setting will possibly take offence to female SM's, I personally wouldn't allow them in my games but if a full group was fine with it go ahead. I'm pretty certain (don't take me to court on this ;p ) but i'm sure a GW/FFG lawyer is not going to show up at your door with a cease and desist order to stop allowing female SM's in your game.

Gunter

I forgot about the sealing thing of the suits, just thinking of it as a 'reason' some people may thing females 'weaker' or more vulnerable. I know differently a female with training is going to be just as effective at fighting as a male, if not more so. My roomate is in the military and she's only 5' tall and about 95 pounds....as she pointed out she's had to compensate for her size by simply learning to fight dirtier but against anyone her size she's on equal footing....and I really doubt the SM's would pick the dainty ones anyway (Again if the GM allows it). The removal of the breast thing was just an idea if you wanted the female to be one that felt like she had to try even more to fit in since even if allowed they would probably still be rare and possibly judged more harshly (unfair but true even in today's society sometimes). It would almost be an act of sacrifice to show ' I am not female, I am space marine'. Leaving SM's male/female fertile and/or removing sexual urges has benifits and negatives. Again something you can change in your own game at will, though I personally would make them all sterile, the geneseed possibly could have severe effects on offspring and probably wouldn't be a risk worth taking.

But again if you want female SM's make it so, but just expect critism or flames from people if you post about it. I have 2 female players in my group so I'm going to have to figure out what to do myself (one probably won't have an issue playing a male but not sure on the other). I'll probably leave the option open for them to play a DH/RT character leveled up to be on equal footing possibly even the junior inquisitor in charge of the squad.

Lask said:

Hi, Lask!

I know the 40k universe relatively well. My female SMs are actually a plot device. I have an adventure made where they play a role. A world recently came out of the shadow in the warp. This IoM world was under Siege for hundreds or thousands of years. They were industrial enough to manufacture new equipment and repair the panzers, Artillery, etc. of the IG and the (stranded) ships of the Holy Navy in system, but began to run low on people. (Sieges are not good for population increase ). Desparation breeds new/strange ideas. The planetary leadership, the Military, the AM and the local SM chapter began to tinker and they succeeded spectacularly. Female SMs. Now the Inquisition (DH chars) arrives, Rogue Trader smell big profits on the "new" world (RT chars) and Space Marines come to reinforce this world(DW chars, if it comes out early enough) and the **** hits the fan, so to speak. The planetary leadership says they had a vision from the emporer to do this research, etc. Secrets, double crossings... What do you think?

As an aside: Since we talked about presents for female SM; what about a Chanel-pattern Energy Fist or a Versace-pattern Plasma Pistol?

Heh, i love debates where fluff is being used to beat down on other fluff... and personal choice... or people hopes and dreams among other things.

This is one of those things where its probably just be to ignore the whole debate and not respond but...

If any of my players asked to play a female SM the answer would be a sharp NO (Probably followed by a sarcastic comment). I would then trust my players to get on with the fact its an RPG and its all about trying on a role. There is some wiggle room in the science-fluff of 40k to possibly have female marines (A mechanicum experiemtn that turned women into near men for the implants to work or a sudden mutation of a combined gene-seed) and their isplenty in the fluff that clearly indicates MArines are so enhanced they are no longer "Male" they don't get those sort of urges (Unless chaos gets involved)

Over the years I have followed 40k I have seen debates and fanfic/information (some very evry bad stories) about female space marines, even read articles on GW staff being directly asked about Marines with Boobs by these fans and they have simply said never going to happen. Its why they made the Sisters of Battle.

Why did they make this choice? Well the idea in part of Space Marines, is to represent the Iconic Hero Archetype, they are larger than life (literally) can fight anything, accomplish great heroic feats and sunder any enemy but they loose their humanity, they are distant, aloof, like a lot of old gods/demi-god were portrayed. Its almost hand me down Sexism in a way, the feats a marine can accomplish are drawn from historical/mythological literature from days when men "did it all". Aiming for that feel has led to the Marines single gender.

I know some people who have thought about female space marines are looking at the the quote "are fashioned into near perfect speciemens{" i.e. the genetic process bulks out the marine, makes them physically fit etc and thus would make a emale marine into a goddess), but in most of the fluff Marines aren't attractive they are angry looking, rugged and often heavily scared from war and unless you have a thing for female body-builders (which I dont need to know about thankyou) then the number one reason for playing a female character dissappears.

In any event the openning poster was asking if people would have a problem with this, the answer is that its up to the individual group, some will have issues others won't. In my experience its best to ask your group if its a problem, if its going to be then Don't play Deathwatch the game is probably not going to be a good fit for that group and if you try to run it with disgruntled players it will be a rocky game.

Space Marines themselves don't seem to have an issue with gender, they will respect any who can fight so why should I take issue with that?

- Raith