I'm gearing up to convert an already heavily homebrewed 4e D&D game over to Genesys, and one of the players noted how he does not like how heavily stats/characteristics are tied to Species in Genesys. Some of the others voiced similar concerns, so I began playing with some ideas on how to address this and want thoughts on "balance".

Looking at the Bioroid as inspiration, I decided to make Species all 3/1s and then give them higher than average starting XP. I was thinking starting them in the 160-180 XP range, mostly so by the time players are "down" to 100, they've settled around some variation of 3/2/2/2/2/1. With this, I'd add that you cannot buy a 5 at character creation. Sure it's a bit of an illusion of choice, but it allows them to define what their character's "below average" Characteristic is, instead of the Species determining that. With that, I'm thinking of having each Species have two different 3/1s set ups, mostly to mimic the Archetypes humans get.

Or maybe I should just junk that entirely, start everyone at 90XP with a 3/2/1 set up. Thoughts?

Also, while going over Talents , something really stuck out to me; Beserk. This Talent feels different from the other Tier 2 Talents, mostly be virtue of almost replicating a specific D&D class feature, specifically a Barbarian's "Rage" ability. That got me thinking about a series of similar "Feature" Talents that would be exclusive against each other; you can't take more than one. Most of these would be roughly analogous to D&D classes to sort of "Define" a character beyond just career skills and would be slightly more powerful than Talents of their Tier (likely 2 to match Berserk). The idea is still rough, but here's some that I'm playing with. Some have names, others are just straight D&D class names.

Protector- Once per encounter make a Discipline check and add Success to one engaged ally's soak up to X value.

Backstab- Add additional damage against enemies engaged with an ally that haven't attack you this round.

" Paladin/Swordmage" - Once per encounter, make a basic Curse spell check targeting one enemy/Barrier targeting one ally as an Incidental.

"Cleric" -Once per encounter, make a basic Heal spell check targeting an ally as an Incidental.

" Wizard" -Once per encounter count the number of rolled Advantage as double for the purpose of activating an additional effect added to a spell.

i use the following quick lookup table for total xp costs of Genesys attributes:

for the d20 4e conversation i use the following formula:

(Attribute + Modifier) * 4/7 * 10XP

so an d20 attribute of

• 10 would be worth: (10+0) * 4/7 * 10XP = 57 XP
• 14 would be worth: (14+2) * 4/7 * 10XP = 91 XP
• 20 would be worth: (20+5) * 4/7 * 10XP = 142 XP
• 30 would be worth: (30+10) * 4/7 * 10XP = 228 XP

you might use the above to convert some starting attributes, or decide to assign 3s or 1s based on race.

since the 4e rules use mostly two +2 attribute score for racial modifiers,
you might get away with 3/2/2/2/2/1 and just require one 3 and one 2 in either.

example: an Eladrin might require a 3 and a 2 in either INT, PRE or AGL.

variant: an Eladrin might require a 3 in either INT, PRE or AGL and cannot put a 1 in these.

that makes a better diversification than the strict assignment from the core rules and it is the player choice ;-)

Oh I'm in no way intending to really take 4e/D&D stats over wholesale, just the idea of stat buying/creation. As long as it works out to something resembling balance, I think it'll be okay.

I mean, I'll be upfront here - I worry porting D&D over in such rigid terms will reinforce the "verb the noun" habits that game encourages, and keep people defined in a more rigidly prescriptive way than Genesys intends. Case in point - if you were an average human Knight, and you took Divine as one of your species skills, are you not a paladin or cleric already?

For backstab - how is this not the SW talent quick strike?

As for the cleric incidental heal - Heal is underpowered relative to D&D anyway, so "double aiming" a Divine heal spell will increase both your odds of succeeding and adding success to the pool. You might heal someone for... 1 or remove... 1 strain, IF you succeed, which frankly on a 3 difficulty check you might not.

I honestly think you're trying to smash a square peg into a round hole, when there's a perfect round peg literally right there for the taking.

4 hours ago, Cyvaris said:

Protector- Once per encounter make a Discipline check and add Success to one engaged ally's soak up to X value.

Backstab- Add additional damage against enemies engaged with an ally that haven't attack you this round.

" Paladin/Swordmage" - Once per encounter, make a basic Curse spell check targeting one enemy/Barrier targeting one ally as an Incidental.

"Cleric" -Once per encounter, make a basic Heal spell check targeting an ally as an Incidental.

" Wizard" -Once per encounter count the number of rolled Advantage as double for the purpose of activating an additional effect added to a spell.

Just a few thoughts before you reinvent the wheel:

"Protector" sounds a lot like Body Guard, a talent that exists in Star Wars if not in Genesys (don't have the book in front of me).

"Backstab" should probably just be Quick Strike, as Endersai suggested.

The magic ones might be worthwhile 10-point talents.

I'm not sure they are worth it though. The odds of a quick, incidental heal - action without manoeuvres - doing anything to make it worthwhile are pretty slim. They only become good at like 200XP in, when your pool is >5 dice and you've got 1 x Dedication bumping your Divine attribute (away from book) to 5. Otherwise it's still minimum 3 purple to get the spell off, and base healing is the attribute - not ranks in divine.

So you'd probably want it as a Tier III or higher talent, because any cheaper and you're underpaying for its value later on. But it will never be as useful as aiming a heal and using surplus Advantage to heal your own strain, IMO.

Oh that's also worth considering - the incidental will still yield 2 strain, so if you let players have it too cheaply or too easily they can just battery farm heals and net off their personal strain. I haven't played much D&D in 4th or 5th ed, but aren't there limits to the number of times/day these spells etc can be cast - and how do you carry that over when the mechanics are so different?

5 hours ago, Cyvaris said:

Oh I'm in no way intending to really take 4e/D&D stats over wholesale, just the idea of stat buying/creation. As long as it works out to something resembling balance, I think it'll be okay.

if this is what you intend, then hand the table to the players plus 180XP, and you have your stat-buy system.

IMHO i would also use the variant score requirement
(ie. an Eladrin might require a 3 in either INT, PRE or AGL and cannot put a 1 in these)

6 hours ago, Terefang said:

For the d20 4e conversation i use the following formula:

(Attribute + Modifier) * 4/7 * 10XP

What...!? Why? Where are you getting these numbers from? You realize d20 also uses a (mostly) quadratically scaling point buy system? I.e.:

8 - 0pt

9 - 1

10 - 2

11 - 3

12 - 4

13 - 5

14 - 7

15 - 9

16 - 12

17 - 15

18 - 19pt

3.5 used a slightly different, but still essentially quadratic, method(14-18 cost 6,8,10,13,16), but 5e basically uses the same system as Pathfinder, adjusted for starting scores of 8 instead of PF's 10.

2 minutes ago, CMink said:

What...!? Why? Where are you getting these numbers from?

trial and error

Quote

You realize d20 also uses a (mostly) quadratically scaling point buy system? I.e.:

.. and Genesys uses a Gauss-Trick with S = ((n * (n+1))/ 2) ... ie. still quadratical :-)

on the other hand, Cyvaris just wanted to use Point buy in Genesys which is already built in.

• all attributes starting at 0 with +180XP
• or all attributes starting at 1 with +120XP
• or all attributes starting at 2 with +0XP
• or 3/2/2/2/2/1 with -10XP

given that the standard human has all 2s and 100XP to boot.

my conversion notes above should just help to have a comparison between d20 stats and Genesys.

fi you do the math you will see that:

• a 7- in d20 means 1 dice in Genesys,
• 8-10 is 2 dice
• 11-14 is 3 dice
• 15-20 is 4 dice
• 21-27 is 5 dice

which gives around the expected power level.

On 12/19/2017 at 4:00 AM, Terefang said:

on the other hand, Cyvaris just wanted to use Point buy in Genesys which is already built in.

• all attributes starting at 0 with +180XP
• or all attributes starting at 1 with +120XP
• or all attributes starting at 2 with +0XP
• or 3/2/2/2/2/1 with -10XP

given that the standard human has all 2s and 100XP to boot.

my conversion notes above should just help to have a comparison between d20 stats and Genesys.

fi you do the math you will see that:

• a 7- in d20 means 1 dice in Genesys,
• 8-10 is 2 dice
• 11-14 is 3 dice
• 15-20 is 4 dice
• 21-27 is 5 dice

which gives around the expected power level.

I have been looking around the forums, but I fail to find the 'stat' of level. I am curious about how much x.p. you would give to convert a higher then level one character into genesys. (3.5 if possible). Do you think epic spellcasting should even be attempted? And if I may ask one more question, If one was trying to import a character from either anima or from world of warcraft (I consider these to be close enough), what would the level equivalence be (if any). I ask this because (just as a thought experiment, not actually planning on incorporating into a game) I was curious how to express Ainz Oul Gown into genesys fantasy stats (is it even possible to convert his spellcasting?). Thank you for your time.

Whoa Necromancy!

@Dogoegma Genesys doesn't really do level-scale, and its math is too tight to support a treadmill like D&D. Further, chances of success aren't as easily calculable in Genesys (which hinder's making any direct comparisons). So any attempt to convert one to the other is simply bound to fail, with the best case scenario being an awkward, kludgy result.

I would say that starting Genesys Characters are more like lower-mid level (3E) D&D characters in terms of competence; given that they're usually about half-way to capping out whatever their primary skill is (with an Ability of 3 out of 5, and a Skill of 2 out of 5), and a starting spellcaster in Genesys can cast a spell analogous to Fireball. 1st level (3E) D&D characters are comically inept in comparison.

Someone like Ains (of Overlord) is fairly 'easy' in that he's very clearly the most powerful character in his world. Yet hard because he's easily a Planetary scale threat (and thus utterly impossible to represent without toolkitting the rules to allow characters to be that powerful). His statistics would all be maxed out (4-6 in every characteristic), and he'd have supremely high skills. Even his Melee skills are likely capped out. Finally, he'd have every relevent arcane magic-using talent, but none of the combat ones. Said warrior-class talents appear to be the only 'edge' other characters have over him in the series. Ains is also a Level 100 Lich (likely CR 24ish in 3E D&D) while the next most powerful humans tend to be around 20th level (or 5th in 3E D&D), at least based on the presented spell-tiers (which are clearly analogous to 3E D&D's spell levels).

On 12/1/2018 at 7:16 AM, Cantriped said:

Whoa Necromancy!

@Dogoegma Genesys doesn't really do level-scale, and its math is too tight to support a treadmill like D&D. Further, chances of success aren't as easily calculable in Genesys (which hinder's making any direct comparisons). So any attempt to convert one to the other is simply bound to fail, with the best case scenario being an awkward, kludgy result.

I would say that starting Genesys Characters are more like lower-mid level (3E) D&D characters in terms of competence; given that they're usually about half-way to capping out whatever their primary skill is (with an Ability of 3 out of 5, and a Skill of 2 out of 5), and a starting spellcaster in Genesys can cast a spell analogous to Fireball. 1st level (3E) D&D characters are comically inept in comparison.

Someone like Ains (of Overlord) is fairly 'easy' in that he's very clearly the most powerful character in his world. Yet hard because he's easily a Planetary scale threat (and thus utterly impossible to represent without toolkitting the rules to allow characters to be that powerful). His statistics would all be maxed out (4-6 in every characteristic), and he'd have supremely high skills. Even his Melee skills are likely capped out. Finally, he'd have every relevent arcane magic-using talent, but none of the combat ones. Said warrior-class talents appear to be the only 'edge' other characters have over him in the series. Ains is also a Level 100 Lich (likely CR 24ish in 3E D&D) while the next most powerful humans tend to be around 20th level (or 5th in 3E D&D), at least based on the presented spell-tiers (which are clearly analogous to 3E D&D's spell levels).

Makes sense, but I am thinking that a rough 15-20xp per level seems somewhat right for now. I would imagine Ainz-tier to be about 10-20Kxp. Naturally they are only rough estimates. (3rd edition 1st level wizards are combat powerhouses compared to 1st edition. You might have 14 intelligence (got to get that wish spell, `approximately 5 times to even get access to 8th level spells, and to have a prayer at learning all of them), the spell dancing lights as your 'attack spell', have only a single use of it, and have about 2-3 hp if you are lucky (it could be worse). Have fun with that, lol (But, 1st ed was balanced specifically to turn the tables around in late game [if you lived that long]). Sigh* nostalgia.... (still remember partying with a 18/00 strength fighter, good times).

7 hours ago, Dogoegma said:

3rd edition 1st level wizards are combat powerhouses  compared  to 1st  edition     .  

Ehh... They're actually not that much more powerful than Magic-Users were (as they were called back then). I've played both, they're still frail as all ****. Getting a d6 instead of a d4 is only an average increase of 1 hit point per level, and they've basically the same spell-slot progression... Except High HP and high Saving Throws were generally scarce in 1E, and Ye Olde Magic Shop wasn't yet a system wide expectation, so their spells were actually more effective for their relative level. Also, your example wizard would have still eventually gained their upper level slots, they'd have simply been forced to fill them with lower level spells (woe is me, more Fireballs), or use a Headband of Intellect to raise their stat.

As for Ains, he's not really suitable for use as a PC (he's a power-fantasy, the world isn't supposed to present a challange to him). So it doesn't matter what he would be worth, although 10,000 xp seems excessive. Considering that a capped Skill is only worth 75 xp and a capped Characteristic 150 xp (210 for a 6);

With 6 attributes and ~33 skills he'd cap everything out at a cost of about 3,400 xp (before getting to talents, which would take much longer to price). However I doubt he has very many ranks in social or general skills, considering his 'NPCs' are constantly out-maneuvering him as he struggles to keep up the facade that he knows what's going on. He's cerrainly overpowered, but the person controlling Ains is not particularly skilled; he was just a 'normal future-day human video-gamer'.

On 12/7/2018 at 7:51 AM, Cantriped said:

Ehh... They're actually not that much more powerful than Magic-Users were (as they were called back then). I've played both, they're still frail as all ****. Getting a d6 instead of a d4 is only an average increase of 1 hit point per level, and they've basically the same spell-slot progression... Except High HP and high Saving Throws were generally scarce in 1E, and Ye Olde Magic Shop wasn't yet a system wide expectation, so their spells were actually more effective for their relative level. Also, your example wizard would have still eventually gained their upper level slots, they'd have simply been forced to fill them with lower level spells (woe is me, more Fireballs), or use a Headband of Intellect to raise their stat.

As for Ains, he's not really suitable for use as a PC (he's a power-fantasy, the world isn't supposed to present a challange to him). So it doesn't matter what he would be worth, although 10,000 xp seems excessive. Considering that a capped Skill is only worth 75 xp and a capped Characteristic 150 xp (210 for a 6);

With 6 attributes and ~33 skills he'd cap everything out at a cost of about 3,400 xp (before getting to talents, which would take much longer to price). However I doubt he has very many ranks in social or general skills, considering his 'NPCs' are constantly out-maneuvering him as he struggles to keep up the facade that he knows what's going on. He's cerrainly overpowered, but the person controlling Ains is not particularly skilled; he was just a 'normal future-day human video-gamer'.

As have I. The problem is that 1st level wizards (I am aware that they are technically called Magic-Users), might roll crap for their initial 4 spell rolls (5 if your Dm was generous). Compared to the typical 2 first level spells and 3 cantrips of 3.5th edition, your 1st ed 1st level MU is possibly going to get shafted at the start. Granted, after about level 5, the 1st ed wizard starts to get a lot more viable (nearly equaling 3.5 ed), the cavet remains the 1st level.

Back on topic. (I do miss those level titles, nothing like being a prestidigitator, lol, seriously though, back on topic) Do you think that 15-20 xp sounds reasonable? As far as Ainz is concerned, if we use the estimation method, we would get 1200-1600xp. This would be rather large. (The 10,000 xp is the estimate I use for a Star Wars force sensitive with maxed out specialization trees, force powers, and skills [in the career]). If I only consider genesys rules, maybe 10xp per level sounds better?

Obviously Ainz, is a power-fantasy character (that is half the fun of trying to PCify him). Nonetheless, I am still putting this forward as a thought experiment. (The more difficult challenge [if your up for it] is to try and create a conversion into Anima: Beyond Fantasy).

An idea to import epic spellcasting: I was thinking of adding what I dub an Advanced Skill to the game. A special 5th tier talent is required, with GM permission (and with an ingame quest after maxing out the basic version of a skill), that qualifies you to start taking ranks in the advanced skill (note: that it is never [most likely] a career skill). Each rank of the advanced skill gives 1 boost die to every use of the basic version, but also allows what would be considered impossible checks to be made with that skill. Basically, instead of flipping a destiny point to do an impossible task, you would roll against an advanced check (it would have its own version of impossible [god-tier miracles and the like, that require a destiny point flip]).

In keeping with the absolute disorganization and lazy writing with my usual response, I had a question about Super-characteristics. What is the max number (if any) of additional yellow die? This is just an out-of-topic side question. I was thinking it works like the World of Darkness rule set in allowing for potentially infinite rolls, but I can also see the interpretation that seems to suggest a max of 2 additional yellow dice. Which do you think?

Thanks for your response.