Just finished out first game. Great mechanics. One nasty debate.

The Melee attack rule says it can only target an adjacent square (p. 11). Can I use a melee weapon (e.g., sword) and be further away than an adjacent square?

One player insisted that all red based weapons (think Beastman attack, sword, axe etc.), can ONLY attack from an adjacent square and no further.

Another read of page 10 suggests that you can be further than one square away with a melee weapons and if you are, you must satisfy two conditions: (1) you can't roll a miss and (2) you have to roll a total range equal to or greater than the distance. In other words, if you're not adjacent and you use a melee-based weapon, you simply lose the "no-miss" range rule you get for being adjacent.

For example, can a sword hit from 3 squares away if it rolls sufficient range ad rolls no misses?

If the second interpretation is right, it means that the only practical difference between a range and melee-based weapon is the color of die and the probability of hitting from far away.

Thanks and two six packs await the winner of the debate.

:-)

Range is not counted on Melee weapons, you either hit or don't. The "range" is adjacent unless you have the Reach ability. Look at page 11 of the rulebook:

" Melee Attacks : Melee attacks can only be declared
against adjacent spaces . However, a melee attack only
misses if a miss result is rolled. Range results are
ignored during melee attacks. When a hero makes a
melee attack, he adds a number of power dice to his roll
equal to his melee trait. "

The Reach ability allows the melee attack to go further than just adjacent (one space for each rank of Reach).

-shnar

Thanks for the response, but it begs the question I was trying to ask.

Page 10: STEP 3: "Count Range and Roll Attack: After determining the range of the attack, the attacking player rolls the dice corresponding to the ATTACKING WEAPON or monster (emphasis added). "Step 4: If no miss results are showing, the attacker adds up all of the range number results rolled on the dice. THe attack HITS if the total range of the rolled dice is equal to or greater than the attack's range."

Steps 3 and 4 make no reference to the type of weapon (bow versus sword). In fact, it says you roll the colored dice corresponding to the attacking weapon.

Let's use the sword as an example. IT hits with a red and green die.

The red die has a max range of 2 and the green die has a max range of 1. That means, that if you roll max range, a sword can hit from 3 spaces away (following page 10 as written).

Of course, a red die also has a range of 0 on it (as does the green one). So I could also roll a range of 0.

The only import of the section on page 11 you quoted is to say that if I'm adjacent, rolling a zero for range doesn't matter. The only way I miss if I'm adjacent is if I roll an "X." But, I can still hit from further than an adjacent square with the sword, so long as I roll a range equal to or greater than the range to the target.

Did you miss the "Melee attacks can only be declared against adjacent spaces" and "Range results are ignored during melee attacks" parts?

Range. Results. Are. Ignored. During. Melee. Attacks.

That being said, it is pretty silly to have range numbers on the red die.

Right. Read my previous post more carefully. I've read page 11 and quoted it. Doesn't answer the question in my mind.

facie said:

No, you're intentionally misinterpreting the rules here, just to try to prove you've found a secret loophole that no one else has ever thought of.

Out of niceness, I've removed the troll accusation.

I can read. You STILL haven't addressed the question. A melee attack is defined as one which is made adjacent. If I am adjacent, I ignore range results. I get that. And. I. Can. Read. LOL

The question is whether I can choose to use a melee-based weapon, like a sword to make a non-melee attack. If I follow page 10 (steps 3 and 4) there's nothing that says you can't. And, the language on page 11 doesn't say otherwise. It presupposed, I'm adjacent and using a melee attack. Can I choose to make a non-melee attack with that weapon?

LOL. No loop hole. Just reading the rules as they are written. And, I'm not sure how others play. Tonight was our first game.

And the red die are part of what confused me. If I can't make a melee attack from a space that isn't adjacent, why are range values printed on the red die? Are they used somehow in an expansion or something?

facie said:

The type of the attack is specified on the weapon card. You'll notice that the sword card is a melee weapon and it has a red die in the lower right corner. Red is melee, blue is ranged. If you're rolling a red, you're doing a melee attack, which is, as you know, for an adjacent, range ignored attack (unless you have Reach). You may be able to read, but your comprehension is lacking.

Reply again with a "you haven't answered the question" post and you've put on Eau De Troll again.

Gosh. I suppose not agreeing immediately with you or suggesting there's a (gasp) ambiguity with a board game rule makes me a troll. Good grief.

And restating the same thing hasn't answered the question.

Perhaps others can respond as well.

I think I just found the reference I was looking for. Page 20 says (under "Item Cards"), "If an item is a weapon, a smaller trait underneath describes what sort of attack it makes (Melee, Ranger or Magic)."

Combined with page 11, it means the Sword (in my example) can only attack adjacent and that trumps Step 3's language on page 10.

In effect, I was trying to figure out of a "melee" weapon could voluntarily be used for a ranged attack if you wanted to give up the auto-miss rule. Page 20 suggests "no."

And page 11 does too, it explicitly states that melee can only be used next to an adjacent space. I'm not sure why you can't see that it's pretty explicit, all melee attacks are on the adjacent space. Pretty clear as day. Glad to see it's now all clear

-shnar

facie said:

Nah, I don't mind being disagreed with. Enjoy it, in fact. It can create great dialogue. I even mentioned how the sword is classified as a melee weapon and the logical conclusion to that, combined with the rules that Shnar and I referenced, gave you your answer.

I admit that the troll comment was uncalled for, but you seemed awfully boneheaded.

Facie: No offense, but you could probably save a lot of grief if you used fewer words and selected them more carefully. You wrote a very long original post, and posted multiple times in rapid succession more than once, which buried your rather subtle question in a mountain of largely irrelevant verbiage. In my estimation, all you had to write was:

"Can you make a ranged or magic attack using a melee weapon ?"

The answer to that question is "no."

I don't see anything in the rules that explicitly forbids it, but given that the weapon types and attack types have exactly the same name, and especially considering that would mean a weapon's type has no mechanical effect whatsoever, I think it's pretty clear the intent was for the weapon's type to constrain the attack type.

OK, and to put another point on this... as asked before... Why does the Red Die have range numbers?

There are specific instances that use the range numbers on the melee die... they're just not in the original game set.

In Well of Darkness, Rolling Boulders are introduced that move a number of spaces rolled on the red and yellow die, adding up the range. Also, in the new Sea of Blood, the red die is used to determine the number of spaces moved when swinging off a boarding rope in an encounter.

It's a holdover from the Doom board game. The Red Die was sometimes used for ranged weapons (specifically, the BFG) and that meant it had to have some range on it.

I read somewhere that in the original concept that the red die had the range to determine the range for a Reach attack. But I guess they just made Reach more simplified and forgot to change the die.

Thanks for all of the replies and I apologize for my machine gun approach in the original post. We were having a heated debate at my home at the time and were trying to resolve the issue in real time.

Helpful community here though. Thanks.

My personal belief is that there are numbers on all the dice "just in case" they want to use them for a future mechanic (check out the Rope mechanic in Sea of Blood).