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*Kaito Kosori
Phoenix Conflict Character
Fate 3 - 2 Military - 2 Political - 1 Glory
Monk. Shugenja. Air.
During each Air conflict, if you control at least 1 participating characterand if this character is in your home area, it contributes its skill to your side.

Just as the name implies. The rules about "bowed characters do not contribute skill at the end of a conflict" affect a character who is contributing from home area? Since Kaito Kosori (bowed or not) is in home area, she isn't "participating" the Air conflict... but the rules affect only participating/attacking/defending characters (so home-Kosori will contribute even bowed) or affect any character regardless where he/she is?

From the wording in the rules, it states you total the skill of ready, participating characters and any modifiers. This ability doesn't even require the participating character to be ready, so I'd say if we take it at face value, this is a case of either her skill acting as a modifier to your side, or the jade rule coming into play. The ability doesn't state she needs to be ready, only that she needs to be in your home area, so I see no reason in either case that she would have to be ready.

Which would make her an excellent choice to bow for using Benten's Touch. And probably a good target for Mantras, if splashing Dragon for a monk/shugenja deck.

ADD: She also (IMO) makes a nice option for honor/ dishonor decks running Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World to maximize Air conflicts, since her ability works for each Air conflict.

Bow, Bowed, RR pg. 3

• During conflicts, bowed characters do not contribute their skill.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe she does add her skill whether she is bowed or not. Here is my reasoning.

In 3.2.3 it states that you add the power of all ready attacking/defending characters and all active modifiers. Kaito states her ability simply: If it is an air conflict, and you control a participating character, and she is in your home -> she contributes her power.

Her ability could easily say "if she is ready and in your home" but it doesn't. Her ability could say "as if she were participating" but it doesn't. It simply states "it contributes its skill to your side."

I believe she falls into the "active modifier" area just like the Imperial Favor. Since her ability doesn't check to see if she is bowed, and it doesn't count her the way it counts the other characters, I'm pretty sure she counts even if bowed.

I'm not completely confident, but I also agree with the others that Kosori likely adds skill while bowed and at home.

3 hours ago, Evilgm said:

Bow, Bowed, RR pg. 3

• During conflicts, bowed characters do not contribute their skill.

One thing to note - this doesn't say they can't contribute their skill, this says they don't. Kosori, on the other hand, says she does contribute.

It's also not even obvious to me that this is even a rule; it seems perfectly logical to say that this line is a description and not a rule itself; this could be just be pointing out that bowed characters don't contribute because they aren't included in the list of characters 3.2.3 spells out do contribute, as opposed to this being an explicit (and totally redundant) forbiddance on bowed characters contributing.

I, too, believe that the ability adds to the count while she is bowed. It sets out a bonus and a condition.

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During each Air conflict, if you control at least 1 participating characterand if this character is in your home area

This is the condition. She can fulfil this condition while bowed.

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it contributes its skill to your side.

This is the bonus. This is a straight 'do X'. It leaves no room for 'do X if Y'.

As for the RRG... try this:

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A player’s total skill is the sum of the skill matching the conflict type of each ready participating character on his or her side of the conflict, along with any other modifiers that are affecting the amount of skill the player counts for the conflict

Emphasis mine. She appears to be a skill bonus in addition to ready participating characters.

5 hours ago, Evilgm said:

Bow, Bowed, RR pg. 3

• During conflicts, bowed characters do not contribute their skill.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just an example of shortsightedness in writing the RR. Seems there's already a few points in there that need clarification (one was already fixed for the Crab holding switching with the stronghold). Obviously I can't assume the designer intent, but it wouldn't be surprising if this bit was written without even considering characters who add skill from the home area.

I predict the ruling on Kosori to say that "does not" trumps "does", because in general restrictions trump permissions, an example of which being "cannot" trumps "can".

Just to play devil's advocate, the rules specifically say that "cannot" is absolute. They say no such thing about "does not".

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 11:00 AM, Evilgm said:

Bow, Bowed, RR pg. 3

• During conflicts, bowed characters do not contribute their skill.

29 minutes ago, mplain said:

I predict the ruling on Kosori to say that "does not" trumps "does", because in general restrictions trump permissions, an example of which being "cannot" trumps "can".

The rule book states bowed characters do not contribute.
Her ability states that when X, Y, and Z (the restrictions for her ability) are met she contributes to your side.
Being ready isn't X, Y or Z.
If she is bowed at home her ability says she contributes.
This comes into contradiction with Bowed stating she does not.
Jade rule states that the card overrides the RR when they contradict.
Thus, she contributes while X, Y, and Z are met, not caring whether she is bowed or not.
This is how you look at it.

The only absolute defined by the rule book as being unable to be countermanded by a card ability is Cannot. Everything else falls under the Jade rule.

31 minutes ago, ElSuave said:

So the jade rule DOESNT work as its written then, there are times when a card's ability contradicts the rule book but it doesn't count for the Jade Rule?

I'm emailing for an explanation of why the Jade Rule doesn't work, because otherwise the rules as written don't work the way they say they do, its just cherry picking what counts as "contradiction" or not. An errata would be needed.

She never contradicted the rules- her ability is permissive, not contradictory. The rules don't say "characters at home don't contribute", so she never had to directly contradict a rule to do that.

33 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

So the jade rule DOESNT work as its written then, there are times when a card's ability contradicts the rule book but it doesn't count for the Jade Rule?

I'm emailing for an explanation of why the Jade Rule doesn't work, because otherwise the rules as written don't work the way they say they do, its just cherry picking what counts as "contradiction" or not. An errata would be needed.

She doesn't directly contradict the rules. The rule preventing her from contributing is the rule that states "Characters don't contribute while bowed", a direct contradiction would be "This character contributes its skill while bowed". As it is she doesn't contradict this rule so the Jade rule doesn't apply.

I would argue that rules as written, she contributes while bowed as stated above. However, I also think that this might be an oversight, and it might get errata'd.

27 minutes ago, Evilgm said:

She never contradicted the rules- her ability is permissive, not contradictory. The rules don't say "characters at home don't contribute", so she never had to directly contradict a rule to do that.

11 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

She doesn't directly contradict the rules. The rule preventing her from contributing is the rule that states "Characters don't contribute while bowed", a direct contradiction would be "This character contributes its skill while bowed". As it is she doesn't contradict this rule so the Jade rule doesn't apply.

She DOES contradict the rules. A bowed Katori tells us that if the condition is met she contributes her skill to the conflict.

The language on her ability is active whether she is bowed or not, as long as you meet that ability she says she can contribute.

Now, the Jade rule tells us that contradictions between the rule book and a card always end in the favor of the card.

When skill totals are calculated the rules state that "ready participating charecters" contribute.

Under Skill: Pg. 15

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Skill

A character’s effectiveness in various endeavors is measured

by its skill. There are two types of skill in the game, military skill

and political skill.

Military skill (?) is used to determine the victor during military

conflicts.

Political skill (?) is used to determine the victor during political

conflicts.

­ Total attacking skill is the sum of each ready participating

character’s skill (for the appropriate conflict type) on the

attacking player’s side, plus any relevant modifiers.

­ Total defending skill is the sum of each ready participating

character’s skill (for the appropriate conflict type) on the

defending player’s side, plus any relevant modifiers.

­ A player is not able to win a conflict if that player has a total

attacking or defending skill of zero.

Her card text DOES say she contributes, but nothing else, especially nothing regarding participating or ready. So when the game calculates who is contributing these two requirements, Ready and participating, both look at a bowed Katori and say "no, you are not participating" and "no, you are not ready".

The Jade rule says that when a card contradicts the rule book that the card overrules the rule book.

So Katori's ability states that she CAN contribute, so the contradition of "I can contribute but I am not participating" is ruled in favor of the card thanks to the Jade rule and she can contribute.

In the SAME way, the contradiction of "I can contribute but I am bowed" SHOULD also be ruled in favor of the card thanks to the Jade Rule and she can contribute.

The reason this answer is a **** up is that its saying that the contradiction of "need to participate" is a valid contradiction for the Jade rule, but NOT the contradiction of "must be ready" which denies her ability to contribut bowed despite her ability.

This means that there are contradictions the Jade rule now does NOT work under, and they are undefined, Tyler just decided that one was a valid contradiction while the other wasn't. I'm fine with errata, if they make Kaito have a "must not be bowed" condition or they further errata the RRG to help define what the Jade rule actually works with but as of now this makes the Jade rule no longer truly active, as what counts as a contradiction between card ability and rulebook is not defined and by this ruling is certainly not what the definition of "Contradiction" actually is.

So I emailed them asking them to lay out the reasoning both for their logic and in the rules. I hope they respond in a timely manner.

This doesn't violate the Jade Rule. We speculated on how her ability worked, and now we have the answer. When it says "she contributes" it allows her to add her skill to your count - however - bowed characters who can contribute (like the ones in the conflict) still don't if they are bowed. Sounds consistent to me.

If you think this is violating the Jade Rule then I recommend re-evaluating what you believe the Jade Rule means. In all my time playing games the one most consistent rule in the game above any other rule generally goes along the lines of "If something says you can, and something says you can't - you can't." I often hear people talking about Jade Rules, or Golden Rules, or whatever that is called for whatever game - but when combined with the rule that Can't trumps Can it is always revealed that if it was intended to trump this rule it would explicitly state it on the card, otherwise whatever the card is doing still obeys this rule.

4 minutes ago, shosuko said:

This doesn't violate the Jade Rule. We speculated on how her ability worked, and now we have the answer. When it says "she contributes" it allows her to add her skill to your count - however - bowed characters who can contribute (like the ones in the conflict) still don't if they are bowed. Sounds consistent to me.

If you think this is violating the Jade Rule then I recommend re-evaluating what you believe the Jade Rule means. In all my time playing games the one most consistent rule in the game above any other rule generally goes along the lines of "If something says you can, and something says you can't - you can't." I often hear people talking about Jade Rules, or Golden Rules, or whatever that is called for whatever game - but when combined with the rule that Can't trumps Can it is always revealed that if it was intended to trump this rule it would explicitly state it on the card, otherwise whatever the card is doing still obeys this rule.

Bolded is the big mistake. There is one word specified by the RRG that is unable to be overruled by a card ability, "Cannot", all other are met by the Jade Rule.

When you have a card that can have an active ability while it is bowed telling you that it contributes, and a rule book rule telling you she cant the Jade Rule, literally the FIRST rule in the rule reference, tells you that when a contradiction occurs the cards ability always trumps the rule reference. I mean, its literally the first thing you read in that document.

She says that if you meet conditions X,Y, and Z she contribute. Being unbowed is not a listed restriction for that ability, as a result a bowed Kaito can have an ability literally telling you she is contributing while she is bowed. The rules then contradict that because "bowed characters cannot contribute" and so you use the literal words of the Jade Rule.

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The Jade Rule

If the text of this Rules Reference directly contradicts the text

of the Learn to Play book, the text of the Rules Reference takes

precedence.

If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of either the

Rules Reference or the Learn to play book, the text of the card

takes precedence.

Page 4 for Constant Abilites we have:
"Constant Abilities A constant ability is any non-keyword ability whose text contains no boldface timing trigger defining its ability type. A constant ability becomes active as soon as its card enters play and remains active while the card is in play.
◊ Some constant abilities continuously seek a specific condition (denoted by words such as “during,” “if,” or “while”). The effects of such abilities are active any time the specified condition is met.
◊ If multiple instances of the same constant ability are in play, each instance affects the game state independently."

On page 5 for Counting we have:
"Count When instructed to count a total of game values on a subset of characters, values on bowed characters are not counted."

For Participating and Cannot Participate on page 11 we have
"Participating and Cannot Participate Any character that has been declared as an attacker or defender for a conflict is considered participating in that conflict through its resolution, unless it is removed by an ability or game effect.
◊ Each character that is in play is either participating or not participating in each conflict.
◊ If an ability removes a character from a conflict or moves a character home, that character is no longer participating in the conflict and is returned to its controller’s home area.
◊ If a non-participating character is moved into a conflict, it is considered participating on its controller’s side.
◊ If a participating character is bowed, it is still considered participating, but will not contribute its skill toward the resolution of the conflict while in a bowed state.
◊ If a participating character leaves play for any reason, it is no longer participating in the conflict.
◊ A character played directly into a conflict from a player’s hand is participating in the conflict. The controller of the character must indicate that this is the case when the character is played.
◊ If a character “cannot participate” in a conflict, that character cannot be declared as an attacker or defender for, move into, or be played into that conflict. If an already participating character gains “cannot participate” status during a conflict, move it home bowed."

And Permissions on Page 12
"Many cards or abilities contain specific instructions pertaining to when or how they may or may not be used, or to specific conditions that must be true in order to use them. In order to use such an ability or to play such a card, all play restrictions must be observed. A permission is a variant of a play restriction that provides a player with additional options as to how the card may be played or used, outside of the game’s general specification"

Page 16 gives us Triggered Conditions
"A triggering condition is a specific occurrence that takes place in the game. On card abilities, the triggering condition is the element of the ability that references such an occurrence, indicating the timing point at which the ability may be used. The description of an ability’s triggering condition often follows the word “when” (for interrupt abilities) or the word “after” (for reaction abilities).
If a single occurrence creates multiple triggering conditions (such as a single Earth ring effect causing a player to draw a card and another player to discard a card), those triggering conditions are handled in shared interrupt/reaction windows, in which abilities that refer to any of the triggering conditions created by that occurrence may be used in any order.
The following is a sequence of possible interrupt and reaction opportunities that exists around each triggering condition that may arise in a game:
1. The triggering condition becomes imminent. (In other words, if it is not canceled, changed, or otherwise preempted by interrupt abilities, the triggering condition is the next thing that will occur in the game.)
2. Interrupt abilities that reference when the imminent triggering condition “would” occur may be used. (Note: For effects, a “cancel” interrupt may prevent the effect from initiating, and the initiation of the effect is a separate triggering condition that precedes the effect’s resolution. “Cancel” interrupts are the only type that will reference the initiation of an effect.) If the imminent triggering condition is canceled, none of the subsequent steps in this sequence occur. If the triggering condition is changed, the original condition is no longer imminent, but the new triggering condition is now imminent.
3. Forced interrupts that reference the imminent triggering condition must resolve, in the order determined by the first player. The standard interrupt window to the imminent triggering condition opens. It closes after all players consecutively pass.
4. The triggering condition itself occurs.
5. Forced reactions that reference the triggering condition must resolve, in the order determined by the first player.
6. The reaction window to the triggering condition opens. It closes after all players consecutively pass"

Finally we have Conflict resolution on page 21
"3.2.3. Compare skill values The conflict type indicates which skill value is used to resolve the conflict. During a military conflict use military skill. During a political conflict use political skill.
First, determine the attacking player’s total skill in the conflict by adding together the skill (that matches the conflict type) of each ready attacking character and factor in all active modifiers. Then determine the defending player’s total skill in the conflict by adding together the skill (that matches the conflict type) of each ready defending character and factor in all active modifiers.
The player whose side has the higher total skill wins the conflict. In order to win a conflict, a player must count a total skill of 1 or higher. In the case of a tie, the conflict is won by the attacking player. If both players count 0 skill, the conflict resolves with no winner, and the ring is returned to the pool of unclaimed rings."

Taken as a whole we have a card that sets a triggered condition (An Air Conflict with one of more friendly characters participating while she is in your home area) and an effect (she can contribute her stat to the conflict resolution). Nothing specifically bypasses the normal restriction of counting that only unbowed characters contribute skill, all we have is that when you go to count the skill of participating characters in the fight if she is home she is counted the same as a participating character. But since she is bowed her contribution becomes 0 for the purpose of the count.

2 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Bolded is the big mistake. There is one word specified by the RRG that is unable to be overruled by a card ability, "Cannot", all other are met by the Jade Rule.

When you have a card that can have an active ability while it is bowed telling you that it contributes, and a rule book rule telling you she cant the Jade Rule, literally the FIRST rule in the rule reference, tells you that when a contradiction occurs the cards ability always trumps the rule reference. I mean, its literally the first thing you read in that document.

She says that if you meet conditions X,Y, and Z she contribute. Being unbowed is not a listed restriction for that ability, as a result a bowed Kaito can have an ability literally telling you she is contributing while she is bowed. The rules then contradict that because "bowed characters cannot contribute" and so you use the literal words of the Jade Rule.

Treat this as a learning opportunity - in every lcg or ccg you play you will find 2 consistent rules. One will say that the cards override the rules, another says Can't overrules Can.

Unless a card explicitly states you can do something even if you can't then that rule is not broken by the Jade rule, rather it keeps the Jade rule in check.

This is something you will find consistently across nearly every game so its important you understand how these two rules work together.

In all fairness I do think this card could have been worded better, if just for clarity sake. Adding "as if it were participating" to the end of the ability would be a helpful reminder to still invoke the rules on contributing skill.

I think the use of the word 'contributes' in the character's ability is key here, as 'contribute' has a specific meaning in conflict resolution (only ready can contribute). If the card would state "add this character's relevant skill to your skill count", it would add it to the total without checking for bowed or ready.

17 minutes ago, LuceLineGames said:

In all fairness I do think this card could have been worded better, if just for clarity sake. Adding "as if it were participating" to the end of the ability would be a helpful reminder to still invoke the rules on contributing skill.

I think the use of the word 'contributes' in the character's ability is key here, as 'contribute' has a specific meaning in conflict resolution (only ready can contribute). If the card would state "add this character's relevant skill to your skill count", it would add it to the total without checking for bowed or ready.

Certainly - this is why I thought at first that it would contribute. The RR definitely needs a clarity overhaul. idk if they'll do it, but I'm with you on that.

3 hours ago, shosuko said:

Treat this as a learning opportunity - in every lcg or ccg you play you will find 2 consistent rules. One will say that the cards override the rules, another says Can't overrules Can.

Unless a card explicitly states you can do something even if you can't then that rule is not broken by the Jade rule, rather it keeps the Jade rule in check.

This is something you will find consistently across nearly every game so its important you understand how these two rules work together.

Everything you say here is actually incorrect and unsupported by the Rules Reference of the game. Please read it.

8 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Everything you say here is actually incorrect and unsupported by the Rules Reference of the game. Please read it.

No you seem to be the one stuck in an incorrect loop. The Jade rule states:
"If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of either the Rules Reference or the Learn to play book, the text of the card takes precedence."

Nothing on this card says anything about a bowed state therefore it does not interact with that rule at all. The only rule that it addresses is the rule of participation as it allows her to contribute as participating as long as their is a friendly model present.

6 hours ago, LuceLineGames said:

In all fairness I do think this card could have been worded better, if just for clarity sake. Adding "as if it were participating" to the end of the ability would be a helpful reminder to still invoke the rules on contributing skill.

It would also make Kosori an eligible target for any abilities interacting with participating characters, which she is currently not.