I keep hearing over and over about how Genesys is not a complete gam e and that somehow that is the consensus of people who have read the game. (From what I've read on this and other forums, heard on podcasts and found on Discord, it is FAR from the consensus of people who have read the game.)

I don't understand where this viewpoint is coming from? When someone tells me that a game isn't complete, to me that means that there are essential rules missing. That does not appear to be the case with Genesys. It's as complete as... say... Savage Worlds or BRP or GURPS 3e corebook (I never played 4e). It's got all the rules you need to play the game. The only thing that I can see that's missing (if we're looking for things that are missing) is exhaustive lists of equipment, vehicles and adversaries BUT all the rules are there to create those things .

I feel that it is a grave disservice to Genesys RPG to describe it as incomplete because that gives the illusion that all the rules to play Genesys are not there.

I'm curious on why others feel that it's incomplete. Because I'm sure that my disagreement with that description is simply how I define an incomplete game . (Palladium FRP 1e, for example, is incomplete as it's actually missing rules that are necessary for some of the magics.)

It's not an incomplete system , no. All the bits and pieces are there. But it's a toolkit, not a ready-to-play game. It's got sample settings, but nothing is really fleshed out. It's got the basics of a magic system, but no background on it. It's got the basic rules for vehicles, but no list of appropriate vehicles.

I feel it is missing a section about creating careers. (Not a big problem) I also think it could certainly use more example equipment. What I really think it needs to just a setting book for me to use as a big example of how do create stuff in Genesys.

Do I think it is an incomplete game? No.

Do I believe that it requires the GM to design a lot of stuff themselves to run a game? Yes.

I do believe that the core rules and toolkit that was given is strong enough that I plan on playing it. (I'm going to run a fantasy western campaign)

1 minute ago, c__beck said:

It's not an incomplete system , no. All the bits and pieces are there. But it's a toolkit, not a ready-to-play game. It's got sample settings, but nothing is really fleshed out. It's got the basics of a magic system, but no background on it. It's got the basic rules for vehicles, but no list of appropriate vehicles.

Ooooh, ok. Now I get what is being said. I'll return to my low-keyed state now. Heh.

I'm also sure that part of my problem is I loooove doing the stuff that is "missing," which would explain my past love affair with GURPS 3e, Savage Worlds and, my guilty pleasure, BRP.

4 minutes ago, Apophenia said:

(I'm going to run a fantasy western campaign)

If you're willing to share whatever you cook up for this campaign, I'd love to see it...

Just saying...

For a friend.

It is still missing a great deal but you can see it here: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkWtSlMyzf

1 hour ago, ArtWend said:

I'm curious on why others feel that it's incomplete. Because I'm sure that my disagreement with that description is simply how I define an incomplete game .

It's best completed by imagination and a little work, two things that are often lacking in the more vocal detractors of any game. So I guess, lacking those two elements, it is an incomplete game, much like a car without a driver won't win any races.

1 hour ago, Apophenia said:

I feel it is missing a section about creating careers.

I feel this too. That's what I'm focusing on at the moment; I'd love to hear anyone's input for creating balanced careers.

Sadly, I do not have the web-fu required to create a webpage dedicated to fan written material, rules, equipment, settings, and adventures specifically for Genesys. But it would be a really nice resource, especially in this stage of the games distribution, as the community support can make and break a game. Especially a game where if you search on google for "genesys" you end up with some companies, and not this. Genesys needs the grass roots commitments of GMs and players that enjoy playing it, to grow into its full potential. Just my two cents.

1 hour ago, Apophenia said:

It is still missing a great deal but you can see it here: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkWtSlMyzf

It may be sparse, but it looks amazing. What little I read also looks like you're on the right track.

I find it a bit incomplete for me... or rather, I find it a bit specific in places where I wish they would have approached some things with more of a tool kit approach and used more space for guidelines on how to use different things for different genre approaches. The biggest hurdle in this is how they approached Magic.

Magic in this game, while being just an option, is a very specific and narrow take on how to do magic. It has three specified skills, a specific system of 10 pages, and specific uses of Advantages and Threats that are a bit harsh IMHO. It has 0 Magic talents, and while they do say that this is one way of doing magic... they don't offer any other ways of manipulating or approaching the system to use Magic in different ways. They very much approached magic from a D&Dish angle, dividing up magic by the skills traditionally considered to be Arcanish, Divinish and Primalish like. But to me, this is limiting because these are also on the character sheets as is, and if I want to do a different kind of magic, lets say I wanted to do Dresden Files and I have the skills of Channeling and Thaumaturgy, then I have to somehow come up with a totally different character sheet with a totally different system of magic that's based on Elemental Magic and not the standard divide of arcana and divine and primal. And then I'd have to come up with new uses of Advantage and Threat and things like that based on this new magic system.

Plus, I'd have to have Magic Talents that fit Dresden Files and the lack of any example Magic Talents sucks. This is one area where they could have added to the example settings chapter, where they could have added in 5 to `10 Talents per setting that would have fit and having different takes on Magic through Talents would have been awesome.

Or better yet, instead of calling it Magic, call them Power Systems, and Magic just being one flavor of a power system.

From this perspective, this tool kit book is very incomplete. At least to people like me.

This problem wouldn't be a problem if FFG created a program that let us create custom character sheets so we can input the skills necessary to fit our own game worlds. But I don't have the skills to make my own nice looking sheets, nor the program to do all the layout functions necessary. So if I wanted to create new skills, I have to use paper, or do the horrible thing of scratching out and then writing in new skills.

So while I think this book is quite beautiful and pretty, I am beginning to see some of the flaws of how FFG has approached it so far, and the lack of any kind of online custom character sheet program makes it difficult for people like me.

We used to create our own Shadowrun character sheets in Excel way back when. Maybe that is something you could try if your skill list is differing too much from the ones in the character sheets that are out there. You can use OpenOffice or something similar if you don't have Excel. It sure won't be pretty but it works.

3 hours ago, Stacie_GmrGrl said:

This problem wouldn't be a problem if FFG created a program that let us create custom character sheets so we can input the skills necessary to fit our own game worlds. But I don't have the skills to make my own nice looking sheets, nor the program to do all the layout functions necessary. So if I wanted to create new skills, I have to use paper, or do the horrible thing of scratching out and then writing in new skills.

User "roninjedi78" on Reddit created some excellent fillable character sheets, both with and without skills: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XFNjFPRKHSbFFrT87qHn1wKLyMdMo2X6

That may help!

OK, that definitely beats the Excel idea.

I'll attach my very quick and dirty example here anyway

ExcelCharSheet.xlsx

Its more of a Toolkit, its clearly NOT a complete generic RPG core book.

Having read the previous comments, I must agree to most of them.

The core book for Genesys is indeed a complete system. Just about every rule is there, and some of them, like the section on vehicles, are presented seperately, so you can use them or ignore them at your leisure, depending on the campaign setting you wish to use the system for. It is modular, something which I like for a 'generic system' to be.

I do see, however, the criticism. What is presented as a full game, is actually a toolkit to create a full game. If we leave out the thin sample settings, the basic rules provide for a knife and a revolver as examples of weapons in the gear chapter. A knife and a revolver. There's a heavy jacket as the only armor option in the gear chapter. I understand why people see this as a very, very limited selection.

For all its faults and merits, D20 Modern presented a complete game. It gave a small but more complete list of modern weapons. It gave us one character class for each of the six ability scores. While I think people would have objected to a weapons list the size of 4 full pages ("just to be complete"), I do think it wouldn't have hurt the page count a lot if the basic gear chapter would have given us the knife, the club or baseball bat, the brass knuckles and a couple more melee weapons to be able to compare them. The same goes for ranged weapons or armor. D20 Modern gave a default modern setting and only then added the modules for post-apocalyps, science fiction, 18th century swashbuckling sea-piracy, contemporary modern age with a fantasy twist, cyberpunk, and a whole lot more.

Do I resent the game for this? Do I suddeny think ill of FFG? No. I love the book and the narrative system, its design and dice, and in a way most of the art in the Genesys corebook seems appropriate, as it looks unfinished, like the game feels to a lot of people. The cover says "The Roleplaying Game for all settings". I wouldn't have minded seeing it say "The Toolkit to create a Roleplaying Game in any setting" or something like that. I think a lot of people would have objected to Genesys a lot less if this would have given them different expectations up front.

Regardless of where those expectations came from, of course.

I really like the approach they have taken, although I don’t think they went quite far enough. The freedom this system encourages is such a breath of fresh air, it holds your hand without setting a rigid path.

A lot of generic systems try to create every rule you will need for everything, right down to feats/Talents/Abilities. All the gear, vehicles and enemies as well. Genesys is different, they provide a framework for you, a core system with structure that’s easy and modular. They provide examples of how to create content, then let you do it.

My problem is I don’t think they go far enough in encouraging you to make your own things. They also don’t quite give enough guidance on making your own new rules. But they do give enough I believe, it’s really not a good core book for a new gm though. A beginner box and a setting book are really needed for newer groups

I don't mind doing all the work myself. Actually, looking at all the great resources this forum comes up with I don't even need to do it all myself. But I can understand if it feels a bit daunting to a lot of people, someone running their first own campaign for example.

I think it would have been easier had one of the settings books come out alongside the core book.

If your idea of running a game is bashing through pre written adventure after pre written adventure then this system isn’t really ready for you.

If on the other hand you hardly pull a stat block from the core book and only buy supplements for inspiration then this will be a decent system, even if it’s hard work.

If you gm with half a sheet of notes and a creative group of players then you probably know this will be your system of the next 10 years.

I haven't read through it in its entirety but I have been going through it piecemeal. My favorite system for incomparable flexibility and modular completeness is the Hero System, therefore I can't help but compare the two. I understand that a lot a left to narration but some of these gaps are glaring. I expected loosely defined skinable abilities, but many are simply missing. Example: Flight as a spell or ability. It's mentioned briefly in the book but not as a power. How does character flight compare to vehicle movement. What is the difficulty or XP cost of casting flight that allows movement at walking speed or at 60 mph for a wizard or winged gargoyle? Sure one could invent a Talent, but as a spell or item (magic carpet, jet pack) a talent may not be appropriate.

This book feels like an extraordinarily light framework. A lot is left to narrative and I expected that but it seems to me that so much has been left out. I wonder if this is so incomplete that it was either rushed to completion or was purposely left so FFG can have additional content for other genre or splat books.

As a nit pick, the concept of "alternate rules" seems redundant. As a toolkit, everything is optional.

1 minute ago, lyinggod said:

Example: Flight as a spell or ability. It's mentioned briefly in the book but not as a power. How does character flight compare to vehicle movement. What is the difficulty or XP cost of casting flight that allows movement at walking speed or at 60 mph for a wizard or winged gargoyle? Sure one could invent a Talent, but as a spell or item (magic carpet, jet pack) a talent may not be appropriate.

As an aside, there are two methods to work with flight. One, the character in question gains the ability to fly as listed on page 100, and follows those roles. Two, the character is treated as a vehicle with a silhouette of 2, and uses vehicle movement rules.

The second option has led to problems for many within Star Wars, as the vehicle movement rules are magnitudes greater than personal scale, so a human with a jetpack is capable of crossing incredible distances in a single turn.

The first option is what I would do.

Is it a complete system? Is a piece of wood a baseball bat? It's the raw materials and some words of wisdom needed to build a setting-specific ruleset. Calling it complete is being disingenuous. The CRB requires house rules, and really makes no claim otherwise.

The more important question is: is the CRB a satisfying start to building campaigns using Genesys? Yes, definitely.

I guess everyone has a different idea of "complete" - if we were to look at other toolkit systems like Fate Core, GURPs, Savage Worlds, PBTA, where do they rank using the same criteria?

1 hour ago, lyinggod said:

I haven't read through it in its entirety but I have been going through it piecemeal. My favorite system for incomparable flexibility and modular completeness is the Hero System, therefore I can't help but compare the two. I understand that a lot a left to narration but some of these gaps are glaring. I expected loosely defined skinable abilities, but many are simply missing. Example: Flight as a spell or ability. It's mentioned briefly in the book but not as a power. How does character flight compare to vehicle movement. What is the difficulty or XP cost of casting flight that allows movement at walking speed or at 60 mph for a wizard or winged gargoyle? Sure one could invent a Talent, but as a spell or item (magic carpet, jet pack) a talent may not be appropriate.

This book feels like an extraordinarily light framework. A lot is left to narrative and I expected that but it seems to me that so much has been left out. I wonder if this is so incomplete that it was either rushed to completion or was purposely left so FFG can have additional content for other genre or splat books.

As a nit pick, the concept of "alternate rules" seems redundant. As a toolkit, everything is optional.

Flight is indeed covered in several places. On page 100 it discusses the difference between hovering and full flight. On page 156 there is an 'aeropack'—a steampunk jetpack. Page 212, under the augment magic action, it tells you how to use magic to grant flight.

The problem with reading a book piecemeal is that you're missing the content you're looking for