It occurred to me that a particularly devastating spell in Genesys is also extremely simple: hurl your target high into the sky, and let gravity do the rest. Even falling one range band (Short) deals 10 damage and 10 strain; two range bands (Medium) is 30 damage and 20 strain, and it only gets worse.

My question is: does this count as an Attack spell, or would it be a Curse? The spell itself deals no damage or strain, it just propels the target upward (assuming there's room to do so). The rules state "if a magical action inflicts damage or strain, it's an attack. If it simply makes the target more susceptible to damage or strain, it's a Curse." I'm leaning towards Curse, but I'm interested what others think.

This spell would be resisted by Resilience, presumably, since it affects the target's body. Each success on the opposed roll would reduce the distance by one range band.

This is basically the same situation as the Move power in Fantasy Flight's Star Wars RPG's. The most damaging effect is to move a target to extreme range and then watch them drop. Even long range would immediately incapacitate the target.

If a PC is trying to inflict damage to an enemy I'd have to check to see which is easier, Curse or Attack. It Curse is easier then it seems like a cheap way to get an attack result for less risk.

It sounds like an unpublished Telekinesis Spell. Basic spell would let you move a Silhouette 0 object within Short range for an easy check

Silhouette upgrades cost 1 Difficulty per Silhouette

Range Upgrade cost 2 Difficulty per Range band.

You would need to succeed at an Impossible (flip a story point for no other benefits than just attempting the check) 5 Difficulty to lift one opponent to extreme and drop them, probably as a Combat check with Defense added.

But as GM I would give the character a chance to resist, so making it an opposed check, or upgrade the check by the targets Brawn. Whatever the case it should be very difficult to do and involve resistance from important Rivals and Nemesis.

4 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Range Upgrade cost 2 Difficulty per Range band.

I think I recall that in SW, the Move power requires your target to start in range, but you can move them out of that initial range. Of course, your homebrew spell could rule differently.

In this case, I'd say the effect they're looking for is to cause damage, and those mechanics are covered by the Attack spell. If the result of resolving the Attack spell is 10 damage, then narratively, they got to short range from the ground. If they end up doing 20 damage, they managed to get their target to medium range. I'd also ignore the strain that would be inflicted on the target from falls for this situation.

I would also not let the Manipulative effect be used to move the target 1 range band up, if the target would fall.

The simple way would be to just use the attack spell. The rules call out that any spell that's intent is to damage the enemy is an attack.

Any custom spell that does this should be balanced against the damage potential of the attack spell, though could be made slightly easier as it can't be used indoors.

Also remember we also don't have the morality system that star wars has in genesys, and any good star wars GM would be handing out conflict like candy for this very grim method of execution. Plus, move in star wars was notoriously the cheese-damage ability and this tactic made it even more cheesy. Its pure munchkin rules manipulation rather than roleplay, so I'd be inclined to veto any attempts to recreate the power from star wars and tell them their attack damage from the normal attack action is how much damage they can do by throwing someone upward.

Well, "intent to damage" is tricky... if you summon a fire elemental and send it at a group of orcs, you're intending to damage them. And the rules don't state that intent to damage is required, just whether a spell actually deals damage/strain or not. Technically, a forced movement spell, by itself, deals neither damage nor strain. If you used a spell to pick up a rock or javelin and hurl it at someone, that would certainly be an attack. But what if you used forced movement to fling an ally to the top of a cliff, or across a gorge?

I'm not trying to be munchy, I'm trying to head this off before it comes up in play. I did submit a request for clarification to FFG, but I wanted to confer with the forum as well and get opinions.

It's an attack. It deals damage. Curses don't deal damage.

I think in any game where a character has a habit of throwing people off a cliff there would be serious repercussions. Using magic for the same purpose would be just as likely to get negative attention, especially if they are doing it where witnesses are.

If your intention is to preempt this then perhaps introduce a Nemesis who does it, then have the authority’s come down hard upon said Nemesis, make an example of them. Perhaps there’s a series of these rogue wizards using “the drop method” and it turns out there’s actually some deeper plot, a true mastermind who is coercing or mind tricking these wizards into doing the horrible act.

The Point is that the players should get the idea that any attempt to use this tactic would likely result in an army chasing them down, where death would be the nicest punishment.

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

I think in any game where a character has a habit of throwing people off a cliff there would be serious repercussions. Using magic for the same purpose would be just as likely to get negative attention, especially if they are doing it where witnesses are.

If your intention is to preempt this then perhaps introduce a Nemesis who does it, then have the authority’s come down hard upon said Nemesis, make an example of them. Perhaps there’s a series of these rogue wizards using “the drop method” and it turns out there’s actually some deeper plot, a true mastermind who is coercing or mind tricking these wizards into doing the horrible act.

The Point is that the players should get the idea that any attempt to use this tactic would likely result in an army chasing them down, where death would be the nicest punishment.

I'm not worried about that... this is a swords and sorcery setting where sorcerers (Arcana casters) are already hated and feared for the most part, so pretty much anything they do gets negative attention. And it's not like anyone else is a paragon of virtue, except by comparison to the evil forces they go up against.

I'm only concerned with the mechanical aspect of such a spell, and it's not a simple answer. Forced movement can be used both beneficially and harmfully. I'm starting to think a Manipulation spell category is needed, at least for my own setting; there are too many possibilities that go beyond the scope of Utility magic, yet don't fall clearly into Attack, Curse, or Augment.

I’m sure FFG will come up with an extensive list of their own, which is to say just make something that fits your game and group... that’s really the whole point of Genesys I think.

You could probably do something where sliding an object is easier than lifting, that gives an excuse for an increase in difficulty to drop test opponents. Also there’s the whole thing of anything a PC can do an NPC can do too. Perhaps some evil person gets the idea from witnessing the PC’s and suddenly there’s reports of it happening all over the place, pile the guilt on the pc’s!

1 minute ago, Richardbuxton said:

I’m sure FFG will come up with an extensive list of their own, which is to say just make something that fits your game and group... that’s really the whole point of Genesys I think.

You could probably do something where sliding an object is easier than lifting, that gives an excuse for an increase in difficulty to drop test opponents. Also there’s the whole thing of anything a PC can do an NPC can do too. Perhaps some evil person gets the idea from witnessing the PC’s and suddenly there’s reports of it happening all over the place, pile the guilt on the pc’s!

One of the reasons I am trying to decide on this before the game actually starts is that in my setting, Attack spells are not available to casters from the start. In most sword and sorcery stories (especially Leiber's Nehwon stories, which are a heavy inspiration for this setting), you very rarely (if ever) see anyone throwing fireballs, magic missiles, lightning, etc. So I am sticking to that trope, at least initially. There is a fourth tier talent, Dreadful Knowledge, that allows casters to use Attack spells (with a prerequisite of four ranks in their magic skill). Even then, attack magic tends to take more ghastly forms: swarms of flesh-eating insects, flaming skulls, boiling blood, etc.

I'm not overly concerned with NPCs getting dropped to their deaths left and right, but if Attack spells are not accessible initially, then I need to decide ahead of time if tossing people in the air counts as a true Attack spell. Right now I'm thinking a Manipulation spell category is probably the best idea, especially since a lot of the work is already done (via the Move power in F&D).

If smaller objects are easier to manipulate, but the difficulty to lift and drop is high, then you probably wouldn’t need to limit the Spell like Attack.

Perhaps for a steeper Difficulty climb but still with utility on smaller objects it could be something like:

Manipulate (Telekinesis):

Arcane, Divine. Concentrate.

Basic spell:

Easy check, slide a Silhouette 0 object within Short range to anywhere within Short range.

Enhancements:

+1D Range, Increase Range of Spell once per increase in difficulty

+1 D Silhouette, Increase silhouette of object once per Difficulty increase.

+2D Empowered, May levitate or lift objects. May cause damage to a target using the object thrown as if casting the Attack Spell. Objects dropped suffer Fall Damage to both themselves and anything they land on, 2 Advantage are required to drop an object on a specific target.

This makes for a Spell you’re able to move things with relatively easily, even pushing engaged enemies away to Short range is just an Average check, but causing damage beyond the normal Attack spell really gets tough quickly.

It also allows you to effectively levitate, but it’s going to be at least a Daunting check to achieve.

That all looks good, and doesn't seem to step on any other spells. I would change the enhancements a bit: the distance you're attempting to move the target, the silhouette of the subject, and whether the target is willing or not. An unwilling target should be more difficult to manage than a willing subject. For example:

Malfas the sorcerer wants to fling an orc (minion) into the sky as a demonstration of his power. Medium range should do the trick. The orc is animate (and very unwilling) (+2D), and is silhouette 1 (+1D). Malfas is using a magic staff, making the first range increase free. He has an Intellect of 4 and Arcana at 3. He will roll 3 Proficiency dice and one Ability die, against four Difficulty dice. He spends his strain, makes the check, and achieves a net result of four Successes, three Setbacks, and a Triumph. The spell is empowered by an unexpected surge of energy, and the screaming orc is flung upwards even farther, to Long range, but the surge of power taxes Malfas further (1 setback = 2 strain), and his staff begins to smoke (2 setback = item damaged one step). The orc crashes down, and is killed by the impact (8 wounds, 30 strain, plus a critical injury).

Another example:

While traveling, Malfas encounters a drover whose wagon is stuck in the mud. In exchange for a cask of the brandy the drover is hauling, Malfas agrees to help the fellow out (and is smart enough to have the drover untether his draft animals before attempting this spell). The cart is large and heavy (Silhouette 2, +2D), but he's not moving it very far (Short range, no added difficulty), and it is not resisting (no added difficulty). He will roll three Proficiency dice and one Ability die, against three Difficulty dice. Malfas spends his strain, makes his check, and gets a net result of two Successes and a Setback. The effort of lifting the heavy cart taxes Malfas further (1 setback = 2 strain), but the cart is raised from the mud and moved safely back onto the road.

Last example:

Malfas attempts to fling the dreaded warrior Kaarsh the Thresher (Nemesis) off of a castle wall. He doesn't need to move Kaarsh very far (short range, no added difficulty), and Kaarsh is massive but still human (silhouette 1, +1D), and aggressively unwilling (+2D). In addition, Kaarsh has Adversary 2. Malfas murmurs a reinforcing incantation (Story Point), spends his strain, and casts his spell. He rolls four Proficiency dice, against two Difficulty and two Challenge dice. His net result is one Success, one Triumph, one Setback, and one Despair. Kaarsh is flung from the battlements, screaming in rage, and while the effort taxes Malfas badly (one Setback = one Wound), his reinforcement incantation mitigates the injury (Triumph = cancels the wound). Unfortunately, Malfas is caught up in his own magical forces, and is flung from the wall as well (Despair)! Hopefully he can cast faster than he falls...

I used an online dice roller for the results.

For comparative purposes, an Attack spell with Empowered and Blast (+3D) would also be four Difficulty, dealing 12 damage to the main target and (if Blast activates) 4+ damage to adjacent targets. That's easily enough to kill an average minion or two, but a lot less dramatic. In effect, any time you attempt to use a Manipulation spell against an unwilling target, you're going to be rolling at least four Difficulty dice (unless it's a reluctant cat, I suppose).

Generally, if you're using magic to pick up and throw stuff at an enemy, I would just treat that as an Attack spell instead. But if you're picking up one enemy and throwing it at another, I'd use these rules. It should definitely be more challenging to hit an orc with a thrown goblin than with a vase or large rock.

Also worth noting that if using a magic staff, you are getting a free range boost, but I would not apply the staff's added damage.

Applying Defense is probably worth while too when it’s an unwilling opponent.

I like the willingness enhancement

Perhaps there could be a 1D upgrade for pulling items out of an unwilling targets hands too, or when something is mounted or secured. A boulder or tree trunk sitting on the ground will be easier to lift than an actual tree with roots or a stone built into a wall.

Eh, I dunno... how do you physically defend against a spell like that? Against a fiery bolt, maybe, ranged defense, but how do you defend against invisible force, or gusting winds, or telekinesis (depending how the spell is flavoured)?

4 minutes ago, Direach said:

Eh, I dunno... how do you physically defend against a spell like that? Against a fiery bolt, maybe, ranged defense, but how do you defend against invisible force, or gusting winds, or telekinesis (depending how the spell is flavoured)?

I don’t really have an answer to that except that it feels more balanced. If a character puts effort into being hard to hurt then it should help in the prevention of being thrown.

It should definitely apply when throwing one enemy at another though.

Definitely, in that case. Likewise if a rock or spear or whatever is being thrown at a target.

Another minor cheese occurred to me... you could Curse a target to shrink down to Silhouette 0, then on the next turn, fling them as far as you can. Of course then you've spent at least four Strain on one target, when you could have just blasted them (in most cases).

Shrinking an ally to make them harder to hit is not a bad idea, though, nor is enlarging an enemy to make them easier to hit, since changing silhouette doesn't change stats.

Shrinking them saves a single difficulty, seems ok for a full action and the Strain cost, they do have to succeed too. You could have tried throwing two targets instead.

5 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I like the willingness enhancement

Perhaps there could be a 1D upgrade for pulling items out of an unwilling targets hands too, or when something is mounted or secured. A boulder or tree trunk sitting on the ground will be easier to lift than an actual tree with roots or a stone built into a wall.

I would treat disarming an opponent as a check made against an unwilling target. Likewise, an object that is firmly set (a rooted tree, mortared masonry, a locked door or gate) should be considered unwilling for Manipulation spell purposes.

8 minutes ago, Direach said:

I would treat disarming an opponent as a check made against an unwilling target. Likewise, an object that is firmly set (a rooted tree, mortared masonry, a locked door or gate) should be considered unwilling for Manipulation spell purposes.

Fair enough. I was thinking it would be good to have an easier to use upgrade to make for a full range of difficulty levels.

It's getting late and I'm getting a bit logy, but I take your meaning, and I think that's a good idea! It would work like the Control upgrade to the F&D "Move" power: +1D to either seize and move an object being held by another (the object is the target of the spell, and the object is not unwilling, since it has no will), or to permit fine manipulation at range, as if you were using your hands (like turning a key in a lock from down the hall, or manipulating a rope to Ensnare a guard).

I think that worn items, like clothing or armour, should probably be considered part of a creature for the purposes of this spell. I'm pretty sure my sorcerer player wouldn't think to use Manipulation to tear the clothes off of someone if it was that easy, but I'm sure someone would try.

OK, how does this look? I finally said "F it" and built in an attack effect, "Hurl". It seems unlikely anyone would ever opt to use this over a straight Attack spell (unless they were barred from using Atttack spells), but the option is there for completeness' sake.

As a side note, adding the "Manipulative" effect to a basic Attack spell makes it vastly more effective, possibly so much that it should be nerfed. For a single Advantage you can move the target up to one range band in any direction (including up). In addition to dealing Intellect + successes in damage, you also subject the target to falling from Short range, nailing them for an additional 10 damage and 10 strain, all for an Average combat check. No minion can survive that, nor most rivals (even if they manage to reduce the damage a little). For that reason, I think the Manipulative effect of Attack should add +2D rather than +1.

Manipulation

Concentration: Yes

Skills: Arcana, Primal

Manipulation magic allows a character to move objects, people, or creatures, and manipulate items remotely as if they were using their hands.

The default Difficulty to manipulate a silhouette 0 object within Short range is Easy. If the check is successful, the target is moved (or manipulated) as the casting character desires. The effect ends when the target reaches its intended destination, although the caster may continue manipulating the target by using the concentration maneuver. If the target falls, use the rules for Falling Damage on page 112.

I think that looks very good. It gets rid of another cheesy tactic you can do in star wars: grabbing one enemy and throwing it into another to damage both with no difficulty increase.

As for the manipulative attack effect, I'd personally houserule it can't move people anywhere vertically. Especially if using this power you've just made.