27 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

I didn't even like the Force Awakens, but in doing what Rian does, he just makes a reboot of a reboot and it makes Rey even more contrived. We are supposed to forget that this girl with no connect whatsoever to the bigger story is called by the lightsaber and then shown a vision of Luke with his metal hand, and of Kylo killing Jedi students? It isn't as if the image was imprinted by Luke because that's the lightsaber that was lost at Bespin. Then Maz says it was Luke's lightsaber, and his father's before that "and now it calls to you." That was a stupid scene, but it exists, so disregarding it is equally stupid. It would be like ignoring that Peter's Quill's father was a celestial. "Nah, Peter, the Nova Core was wrong, you are just a normal dude who happened to be able to be able to hold an infinity stone and live, unlike any other mortal."

But the movie kind of did address that, as well as all of the complaints people had after the first movie about how Rey was able to learn to use the Force so quickly. It was heavily implied that the Force is always working to bring itself into balance. Snoke and Luke were strong Dark/Light side users, but the rise to power of Kylo Ren (and the killing of all the other Jedi students) meant that the Force needed to find someone who could be equally strong in the light side. THe lightsaber called to her not because she was Luke's child, but because she was heir to his light-side legacy.

I thought the lightsaber called to her because its battery was low and it was beeping constantly....

It’s interesting to see people lament storytelling and then list grievances that show that they don’t understand storytelling at all.

The characters did “nothing”? They failed? Poe is a different character at the end of the movie than the start. His growth is earned, justified, and believable. He sacrificed many lives to take down a big ship in an ultimately meaningless move in the overall war. He should have known better. Leia told him so, for one, and how many times have the Rebels / Resistance blown up something big only to lose the war? That’s good storytelling.

Finn is a different character at the end of the movie than the start. He wakes up and only cares about Rey. He sees a beautiful town and can’t see more deeply than face value. By the end he’s all in on the Resistance and is willing to give up his life to take down the canon and to help Luke. That’s earned. It’s justified. That’s good storytelling.

Rey goes from reaching out to everyone and everything to tell her what her role is to taking charge. To walking away from a potential teacher, a potential partner, her past. That’s good storytelling.

Kylo buries and kills his past. He smashes his tie to Vader. He kills a master that he was groveling in front of days before. He goes from not being able to fire on his mother to ordering his troops to murder her and everyone in the base. We know how and why he gets there. That’s good storytelling.

Going “but how does Rey know anything” misses the point. We see Luke get 10 minutes of lightsaber training but can accept that he can outduel Vader. He’s never left Tatooine but we buy that he’s the best shot in the entire Rebel fleet at the end of the first movie.

Saying “but everyone fails” is the point. Who accomplishes anything in Empire Strikes Back, exactly?

I could go on. I totally understand not liking individual decisions about characters. But a ton of “whataboutism” about the storytelling is really bizarre since the movie goes so far out of its way to flesh out the development of the characters themselves, which is really what makes a story well told.

TLJ story well told? The Last Jedi is the WORST Star Wars movie if it comes to storytelling. It makes no sense at all and it leaves so many plot holes that Abrams will never be able to write something decent for episode IX.

Mark Hamill didn't even know the ending of the movie, and he was so pissed when he discovered post release that Luke passed away he used rants instead of comments.

Not only the movie was written so bad that there's an active poll fans sent to disney to actually remove it from the canon, but The Last Jedi is filled with so many ugly, pointless and not funny jokes that you could name it "the last laugh"...

Poe charging alone against the order's fleet and how he makes it? By talking trash about the admiral's mother? Seriously!? And they really fall for it? That's the first moron, not the first order. Then for unknown reasons, Poe 1shots the dreadnoughts heavy turrets, then 2 minutes later the order's ships are so strong they need to send the entire rebel remnant fleet to bomb it down because it's the only way? For god sake WHY!? Just let Poe alone do the job!

Tallie is the most pointless character EVER seen. Hey look! We have a new hero! She's so hot, she's so strong! She's so v...DEAD. 3 ***** minutes, she lasted 3 ***** MINUTES, with no introduction, no words, nothing at all. But hey she is the connection to Rose! NO, SHE ISN'T. To connect a character you need a background, which is something we totally don't get at all. That's bad writing.

Then they freakin KILL Admiral Ackbar without any visual scene, and how do we find it out? By introducing Holdo, another ****** USELESS character. Hey guys, Leia's knocked out, Ackbar is dead, but we can't grief because i have to think to a plan to flee and i will keep it secret into my head for no reasons, while you will have nothing to do than waiting. Wut? Hey Rian, did you ever know that Admieal Ackbar was an awesome, known and loved character in the universe? He's a badass! You just could make him crush into snoke's ship (another wasted potential...) instead of a purple haired new entry which, again, lasts a quarter of the movie?

Finn and Rose are a cancer. Their plot is totally out of the movie, it's sooo forced and it does NOTHING!! They are worse than Jar Jar Binks as far as utility, i hate them so much. They go into a CASINO just to gain their clip time into the screen, because the casino does literally nothing for the plot. No explanations, no connections, just a bunch of drunks gambling (EA and Disney share this trait it seems). They get jailed and RANDOMLY meet with the guy they look for, who could actually sneak out whenever he wanted (uh dude, then why didn't you do that earlier?), so that they can blow the casino off with random creatures we get to know nothing about and then be betrayed by the super smuggler (that cliffhanger tho).

Meanwhile Luke is become a sad emo who drinks something we call "milk" and just whines and stuff. His dialogues are as much forced as the casino scenes, and the entire cavern of the dark side scene is another wasted opportunity. Oh Degobah, i miss you so much...

Then Rey becomes even more powerful after just 1 ***** lesson in which she gets whipped by a LEAF (no comments on that joke), while Chewbacca has been completely forgotten, he gets 2 scenes in the entire movie, and those scenes are just to introduce PORGS! Oh my, poor wookie.

Yoda at least is understandable, he got older as a spirit too, therefore he's uglier than ever ?

Snoke is EA. A perfect b&%ch. I'm the ultra-mega-super-overlord! I'm so powerful i can do everything with the force! I'm the most ancient and wise supreme force user! I can read minds! No one can beat me! No one can betray me! I can do whatever i want! Blah blah...you know what? Fock off!!!! If you "feel a sense of pride and satisfaction" for how the plot was written around him, then you are like Jon Snow, you know nothing. And now that he's gone while leaving even many more plot holes, that is the sign everything is collapsing from the inside, they are lksing the control over the cliffhangers aswell. Royal Guards make me sick, worst thing in the movie, although Rey and Kylo's fight is pretty good. No knights of Ren, btw.

Phasma has been raped in this movie. She is NOTHING like the book, she's the most WASTED writing potential in the entire movie imho. And if you dare arguing that, go read the book 1st.

Luke and Kylo's battle is well played, one of the very few great moments in the movie, as much as Crait battle is visually outstanding. But again, speaking in plot writing, it's a **** fail. It seems even that Finn can teleport miles away from the crash site, since he returns in the base in just 2 seconds after crushing with Rose.

The last scene with the kid using the force is just pointless, i seriously donno why even making it. No, actually i know that, it's for the ring! Now can sell the merchsndise! $$$

At the end of the movie, we know nothing yet about Rey and how can she even be so OP, we know nothing about snoke snd how the FO was born or why he made it, we know nothing about new characters, we don't know why Kylo has no red eyes after everything he has done, we know nothing on the first jedi temple, the FO is led by a kiddo with no strategical experience, we know nothing about Crait and when was it used by the rebellion, we know nothing AT ALL. There are even NO characters from the races of the old movies! All we have is just a million plot holes moved along with a sense of pride and accomplishment for how they brutally murdered 6 movies of Star Wars and how they separated themselves from them, making another failure in writing. All i saw is Disney makibg $$$$ money $$$$ by using Star Wars brand.

It’s nice to see the post immediately after mine prove my point so elegantly.

We don’t need to know how the First Order was born; we didn’t know about the history of the Empire in the OT. The context and setup is all we needed.

We don’t need to know About Snoke; we didn’t know about Palpatine within the OT. He really only exists to give something Vader and Luke to overcome.

The FO is led by a kiddo with no strategic experience? Because Grand Moff Tarkin did such a great job, right? Let Leia lie to him about the location of a Rebel base, not take the Rebels seriously, and then get an entire base killed. And then in Empire the Imps mucked up the Hoth landing. And then in Jedi they got dunked by a bunch of Teddy Ruxpins. The Empire getting tossed by scrubs and thinking too much of themselves? That’s Star Wars, brother.

We know nothing about Crait? Because we knew so much about Hoth, right?

All of the stuff you’re talking about is why the EU existed and why... whatever they’re calling it these days... exists now.

@erlucius90 and @KalEl814 calm down, be nice. You're both spouting hyperbole.

Nerd, yes. Of course. I’m on a message board for a Star Wars board game discussing movie that hasn’t affected that actual game at all!

But hyperbole? Naw. I’m not going to try to convince someone to like something they didn’t like. Taste is taste. If someone was bummed by how Luke went out? That’s cool. I loved it but to each his own. But to say that the movie didn’t set that up or earn that moment? No, that just ain’t right.

When Kylo and Rey start Skyping one another, one of the first things Kylo says is that Rey couldn’t be doing it because the effort would kill her. Then that’s how Luke goes out. There’s SO MUCH setup and payoff in TLJ that you have to ignore to say it’s not a well written movie.

It was just a joke, bud. Your posts are almost entirely rhetorical questions that you answer for yourself. That's not constructive.

I know it was a joke.

5 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

We don’t need to know how the First Order was born; we didn’t know about the history of the Empire in the OT. The context and setup is all we needed.

We don’t need to know About Snoke; we didn’t know about Palpatine within the OT. He really only exists to give something Vader and Luke to overcome.

in the OT it is Accepted that the empire run the galaxy, because that is how we are introduced to it. when you have a film piggybacking off the pre-existing universe you need to include some indication of origin or consequence from the fall of the empire. World building makes your storytelling stronger

you made some good points about character arcs. even though the only one that was the most clear was Poe's arc. individual character arcs, while can create good character growth, do not promote good story telling. you have to take into consideration character motivations and the connective tissue linking scenes in the film together. you do state the growth of the characters, but you have to admit there would have been a better and stronger way of telling those stories in this film. it just didnt hit the mark.

38 minutes ago, Spidey NZ said:

in the OT it is Accepted that the empire run the galaxy, because that is how we are introduced to it. when you have a film piggybacking off the pre-existing universe you need to include some indication of origin or consequence from the fall of the empire. World building makes your storytelling stronger

you made some good points about character arcs. even though the only one that was the most clear was Poe's arc. individual character arcs, while can create good character growth, do not promote good story telling. you have to take into consideration character motivations and the connective tissue linking scenes in the film together. you do state the growth of the characters, but you have to admit there would have been a better and stronger way of telling those stories in this film. it just didnt hit the mark.

I honestly think that the opening crawl for The Force Awakens tells us everything we need to know about how the First Order came to power. Getting into the nitty gritty of that stuff has always been the domain of the EU. If I was going to tie this back to the OT, I'd say that it's equivalently "problematic" that the destruction of the original Death Star seemed to not slow down the Empire at all between Episodes IV and V as it is that the First Order came to power after the Rebel victory in Episode VI. Which is to say that for the movies in which the action is taking place, it's not an actual problem at all and is best explored in the larger canon. It has the potential to be very interesting, it's just not the focus of the movies.

I think a compelling character arc IS good storytelling. And I really enjoyed what we got with Poe, Kylo, Finn, Rey, and Luke. I think Luke's is probably the least well crafted only because so much of it comes from Luke having to literally say everything that happened between VI and VIII but Rain made it interesting by having Luke and Kylo's accounts build off each other, and Mark made it interesting by absolutely killing the performance. We see the other characters grow through action and talk, which helps.

I disagree about the connective tissue and scene linking though, in that I think TLJ is incredibly strong in this regard. So much that's set up is paid off. Could the storytelling have been better? I honestly don't know. We're shown growth through actions and consequences, setup and payoff. That's good writing. It's hard to get too much into what could have been without getting hip deep in whataboutism almost immediately, which I don't think is a productive way of discussing a movie, book, etc. Is what we're shown / what we read justified by what we know? I feel like it is in TLJ. If someone was too weirded out by Luke milking that alien or was disappointed that we didn't learn more enough about Snoke's backstory, I'm not going to try to tell them that their expectations were jacked or that Star Wars is best when it's weird... that's just my bent but not everyone is bringing the same perspective to the movie. I DO think it's fair, however, to say that the milk scene was supposed to weird you out and was successful in that regard, and that Snoke was supposed to set up Kylo's development and was successful in that regard. I don't think the success of what those scenes were trying to accomplish is in question... even if whether or not someone was looking for that stuff in the movie and liked it obviously is.

Which is why I try to avoid the whataboutism I mentioned. Could there have been a better or at least different way to show Kylo's development that didn't result in Snoke's death? Yeah, probably. But we could do that about literally every aspect of the movie, even the stuff we agree on and both think is great. That's why I don't think it's a particularly useful way to discuss the movie, there's no end to the rabbit hole nor an end to the rabbit holes we could find.

Regardless, I hope that I'm not coming off preachy or that I'm trying to tell anyone they're "wrong" to dislike the movie, even my trollier comments were intended to be in good faith and I really love reading the diversity of opinion on the movie. Honestly I'm just thrilled that there's actual SUBSTANCE to talk about with a Star Wars flick as opposed to the traditional "why wasn't there a manhole cover over the Death Star exhaust port" wankery (Even if we're getting some of that too ).

53 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

"why wasn't there a manhole cover over the Death Star exhaust port" wankery (Even if we're getting some of that too ).

thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed the Luke, rey and Kylo stuff, that was my luke. that was the most interesting. and some missed opportunities to really try something new. (like rey and kylo do take over together the first order and try to do good with it) (the first order are only doing what gold robe told them to do, which is evil things.)

there could have been a really opportunity to flip the roles for first order and republic. make the republic the big force and the first order that do several 'rebel' strikes and hit them in a big way forcing them to slip. maybe that starkiller base was a republic weapon and the fist order launch a first order strike team to it and take it over with captain phasma and fire on the republic, crippling them.

the side plot was the dis-jointed part, the casino did not impact the overall story at all. it could have been filmed differently or made that idea aesthetically interesting than just a big ship pot shotting little ships in a straight line. Screen writing always have you characters and villains do the greatest/smartest thing possible and then write a more interesting way out for your heroes. another missed opportunity is to double bluff the audience with snoke's death. he basically tells the audience what is going to happen and it does. no subversion of audience expectations.

and the flaw in the death star was Hubris on Tarkins part. that plays to the character of the empire.

missed opportunities mainly, working in the media and creative industry, it baffles me why some professional film makers make the choices they make.

thanks again

I certainly struggle with telling someone they are wrong to like something, but I can't understand it. Even if I put aside the nitpicks about the First Order and how they came to be; and we have to at least be able to say that the beginning of Star Wars is a little bit different in that there was zero world building at that time. It is one thing to say An Empire ruled the galaxy. That's easy to understand. When Tarkin explains that there is no longer a Senate, but regional governors, like Roman Pro Consuls, would rule their individual systems, that is an easy concept to visualize. The language of the Star Wars establishes the necessary information in a creative way, through an Imperial board meeting. Nothing like that in either 7 or 8. Just Snidley Whiplash and his evil machinations. So, back from digression, if we accept that the first order just came to be, and you are new to the Star Wars universe, it still doesn't excuse the awful execution of any concept that movie takes on. If it weren't Star Wars, it would be laughed at. It would be Transformers. It is Transformers honestly, but it would be viewed as such, entertaining, but still worthy of haughty derision.

The Force Awakens was a badly executed movie. I'm not sure what Jedi mind trick that these movies play on people that i can hear them admit to the many faults but then say, but was awesome none the less. Rey is an awful character, not because she is a girl, but because she is an awful character. I was a fan of Mara Jade and I'm fan of Hera, as much as I hate Rebels. I hate Sabine. Not because she's a girl, but because she's an awful character. Rey's journey off Jakku and to Luke's island is more forced than Qui Gon's journey through Gunga City, the planet core, and to the only Jewish stereotype junk dealer in all the planet who not only has the only part they need, but coincidentally won't take republic currency. That is a contrived, ham-fisted method of moving the plot along, which is exactly what the Force Awakens was. But TFA was a gem compared to the Last Jedi. Not only did TLJ not deal with setups in the previous trilogy, it discarded with extreme prejudice, setups in its own trilogy. Empire Strikes back carried forward what had been done in Star Wars and added to it in a meaningful way. We heard about the Emperor in Star Wars, we saw a brief glimpse of him in Empire Strikes Back. Then in the final installment we get to see him completely, and after a lengthy setup, Darth Vader turns on him, because of his own son, and does it a compelling way. TLJ is a reboot of a reboot. It flushes almost everything that is setup in TFA down the toilet because... Rian Johnson didn't like it?

The Last Jedi couldn't even be arsed to develop its own big moments, it just cribs them right off of the previous trilogy, unearned. It is like that gawdawful Into Darkness, that, with equal disregard for the fans, switches the places of Kirk and Spock without earning it. It just copies a better movie for the sake of it, I guess, because they want a big payoff moment too. Why would Kylo betray Snoke for Rey? Because she's a girl? That's what is ultimately the most cynical thing. In order to virtue signal how the Force is Female --Kathleen Kenedy, great moments in cinema are stolen, like by a some cheap , B-movie rippoff, so you can have them in your new gurl power movie. Just because you own the IP doesn't make it right, it makes it disrespectful. Additionally you cheapen your own characters. Snoke was cheapened as a villain. Kylo has never come off as a villain, because he is like Edward Cullen of space operas.

But on top of all that, the Last Jedi was a bad movie. It was overly long. It was convoluted. It is filled with forced pathos and unbelievably contrived plot arcs that, as someone said earlier in the thread, ultimately go nowhere. The humor was the equivalent to film about Hitler where in it Hitler does a vaudeville routine in the middle of a serious discussion about military strategy. In Empire Strikes Back the rebels lose at Hoth, but they broke the blockade, and in the end, they are at the fleet preparing to take the fight to the Empire. Empire actually isn't a downer ending, it just isn't a celebratory ending. Luke was a stronger character in the end. He had grown a great deal, faced extreme adversity, and demonstrated his willingness to sacrifice his own life rather than succumb to evil. At the end of The Last Jedi everything they tried to do failed. They barely made it out with their lives, no thanks to the awful Rose who tried to prevent Finn from heroic sacrifice. That was actually the moment I became really angry. I'd seen a lot of stupid in the previous two-hours, but I'd never seen a film in which someone prevents someone from saving a bunch of lives and is overly proud of themselves for it. Rian Johnson is bereft of nobility if he thinks that his message ultimately rings true. Had it not been for Luke, and Rose had no a prior knowledge of his intervention, they would have all been killed.

The argument that "nothing happened that mattered" is an interesting one. I kind of see where it's coming from, but at the same time, I think this is yet again another case of the film simply not conforming to the specific expectations people had.

For instance:

Example One: Rey's Training

Rey didn't really get much training. This is true. However, she didn't travel to Ach-To for the same reasons that Luke went to Dagobah- the intent was never that she was going to be trained, it was to bring Luke to the Resistance. She literally spells this out in the movie. The audience just expected that she'd be trained- which, for a brief time, she was- but again, our expectations were subverted.

What did end up happening was that Luke did return to the Resistance (from a certain point of view). So, Rey succeeded in her goal. So no, "nothing" did not happen (ugh, forced me into a double negative there ).

Example Two: Holdo's Plan

Here's the thing about Holdo's plan- does it fail? Sure, the Resistance isn't able to sneakily get onto Crait's surface, so that part of the plan failed. But they still get to Crait alive, and by the end of the film the Resistance still has breathing members. It's not a spectacular victory for either side, really- with the Resistance hanging on by a thread (obviously not an enviable position), and yet the First Order knows all too well how dangerous an un-quelled Rebellion can be so their failure to stamp out the Resistance once and for all is also a defeat on their behalf.

Holdo got the Resistance to Crait, and the Resistance was also able to get off. Maybe the plan didn't go off with the precision of Thrawn-like planning, but did it need to in your honest opinion?

Example Three: Finn and Rose

On the surface, Finn and Rose's adventure seems to have been for nothing. They didn't get the master codebreaker, and even the hacker they got failed to complete their mission.

The two accomplishments they had seem to be:

1) Rescuing some space horses

2) Maybe killing Phasma (but let's not kid ourselves, she'll be back)

I think this leaves out an important, and perhaps one of the most overlooked characters of the film, though- the stable boy. And clearly Stable Boy is important- there's a reason that RJ ended the film with his scene.

Now, I'm not sure SB is an actually important character in a concrete sense, but rather that he represents the hope of the galaxy. Finn and Rose inspired that hope for him, and later we see that Luke also inspired hope in him as well. We can only assume that many others in the galaxy were similarly inspired.

And, come to think of it, as far as I can tell, the only people from the Resistance to even interact with individuals outside of the galaxy in this movie (outside of Rey with Luke and the caretakers, and the ignored calls of help to the Resistance's allies) are Finn and Rey. While the FO and Resistance hold their war of attrition, Finn and Rose are out there, showing the galaxy what freedom can look like.

Will this carry over into Episode 9? I'm not sure. But again, Rian Johnson chose to end the film with the Stable Boy and a message of hope, so it seems like a very distinct possibility.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, I think this complaint is interesting, but here's the thing- even though the characters' plans don't always go through, they never become passive or are robbed of their agency . That's super important, because if they did, then it probably would have been really bad storytelling.

As is, though, it's not really the case. Rey doesn't convince Luke to join the Resistance or train her (at least, she doesn't believe she does) so she takes matters into her own hands, leaving Ach-To (with the Jedi texts!). Finn and Rose are captured in their mission, but they continue to fight. Holdo's plan falls apart, so she rams a Mon Calamari cruiser down Snoke's throat!

So, perhaps the argument can be made that these characters' plans often didn't come to fruition, but I really don't see that as a fault of the movie. If one does, maybe they'd like to watch "Episode 9: Perfect Plans and Punctual Schedules".

23 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

We don’t need to know how the First Order was born; we didn’t know about the history of the Empire in the OT. The context and setup is all we needed.

The OT was born out of nothing, Star Wars was the very 1st asset in the entire cosmology. The Empire had all the rights in the galaxy to be settled up as rulers, because there is nothing influencing the phace and the sense of the movie. And then, during the movie, we have Tarking discussing with Leia about the Senate, the Republicans and how their recent history made the Empire gain full control over the politics. It was a short one indeed, but since the movie was the 1st in the history of SW, it worked out perfectly as a solid point of growth to make people understand why rebels fight against the Empire. TFW and TLJ are the 7th and 8th installments of the saga, they are completely influenced by what happened in the previous movies, you can't just use the same cinematic technique and hope to have the exact same results, that's just bad directing and writing skills, and that affects each other point mentioned.

23 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

We don’t need to know About Snoke; we didn’t know about Palpatine within the OT. He really only exists to give something Vader and Luke to overcome.

Same issue as before, Palpatine came out from a blank setting, he had no need to be introduced. He was just the one in charge of all the empire, then in ESB he became the master of Vader, a **** scary threat, and then again in RotJ he jad his destiny fulfilled.

Snoke, instead, was placed into the saga with actually no connection at all, and no ome ever said anything about him other than "oh he is the supreme leader". The new trilogy cannot avoid connections with the OT and the other movies and series, it just cannot work in any way.

23 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

The FO is led by a kiddo with no strategic experience? Because Grand Moff Tarkin did such a great job, right? Let Leia lie to him about the location of a Rebel base, not take the Rebels seriously, and then get an entire base killed. And then in Empire the Imps mucked up the Hoth landing. And then in Jedi they got dunked by a bunch of Teddy Ruxpins. The Empire getting tossed by scrubs and thinking too much of themselves? That’s Star Wars, brother.

Tarkin has never been at the lead of the Empire. Palpatine was, and Vader had the charge while we knew nothing about him.

After Snoke's death, instead, Kylo became the new supreme leader, which is the same role Palpatine had, and he's far far away from being strategic in any way Vader or Palpatine were.

23 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

We know nothing about Crait? Because we knew so much about Hoth, right?

Same thing as before, the OT has no setting already made up, we lived hoth in the movie, that was actually well played. Crait has been indicated as an important rebel base during the OT time, yet we know nothing about that. And since the OT is what makes the new trilogy even possible, that is a big of a plot hole, they seriously had to get some background.

23 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

All of the stuff you’re talking about is why the EU existed and why... whatever they’re calling it these days... exists now.

I can't talk about EU because all of EU is legends, i'm just giving my reasons upon why and how does TLJ fail as star wars movie and fails in directing and writing skills ?

Quote

Holdo's plan falls apart, so she rams a Mon Calamari cruiser down Snoke's throat!

You can't weaponize light speed travel. Why would you need to fight any big ships in any of the films, if you just can ram them with some auto-piloted space pimple capable of light speed jump

3 hours ago, Arviss said:

You can't weaponize light speed travel. Why would you need to fight any big ships in any of the films, if you just can ram them with some auto-piloted space pimple capable of light speed jump

I loved the movie, but this is my issue with it. Why did Han bother to come out of hyperspace under the shield in Episode 7 when he could have just got a minion to stuff the Falcon into the planet at hyper speed and buggered it up for free?

Does anyone here think, that it is possible, that Kylo Ren lied? Maybe, it is still possible, that Rey is a Skywalker (or a Solo)? It would not be the first time, that anyone lied, you know?

The Force Awakens the worst Star Wars movie? Because of bad characters? Jar Jar and Anakin in Episode 1 must be long forgotten for some forum users?

Everything the heroes do is pointless? And therefore it is bad storytelling? Episode 5 anyone? If you want every plan of your heroes work out, maybe you should watch A-Team instead? That must be the best storytelling ever, then.

6 hours ago, Arviss said:

You can't weaponize light speed travel. Why would you need to fight any big ships in any of the films, if you just can ram them with some auto-piloted space pimple capable of light speed jump

I mean, they did, so...

Anyway, I imagine that the Resistance is hurting for hyperdrives as is. I don't see this being a viable option going forward- especially not with another Mon Cal cruiser, even if not manned.

Plus, we've already seen ships be weaponized, particularly in the Ryloth arc of the first season of the Clone Wars. And heck, we saw a frickin A-Wing crash take down the Executor . This is nothing new to Star Wars.

And, I mean, I'm no physics professor, but I would be under the impression that velocity would actually significantly increase the effects of a collision...

2 hours ago, DerBaer said:

Does anyone here think, that it is possible, that Kylo Ren lied? Maybe, it is still possible, that Rey is a Skywalker (or a Solo)? It would not be the first time, that anyone lied, you know?

Anything is possible, but no. I don't believe that Kylo lied. Rey came to the same conclusion, and nothing in the first couple movies would suggest that Kylo would be able to successfully compel her like that.

Interestingly enough, people had the same reaction to Vader's revelation to Luke back in the day .

29 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

I mean, they did, so...

...it was good? Is that your assertion? There is something called verisimilitude and the The Last Jedi lacks it. People rightfully complained about Anakin's little trip into the droid control ship and back out again, because it was contrived and aesthetically offensive. I'll admit that the hyperdrive scene looked good, but movies should have internal consistency. Having bombers that crawl along and drop gravity fed bombs is silly enough in a space epic, but then to show you could have just used light speed torpedoes makes your opening even that much more stupid, but it is also a bad attempt to unscrew the heroes you've painted into a corner. Hyperspace in Star Wars has been about removing one's self from known space and into "hyper" space. Otherwise there are billions of piece of debris that would destroy your ship en route. To suddenly subvert that because you didn't think through your movie very well, is bad writing.

I'll admit I always hated the A-wing scene in Jedi, even when I was a 15 year old watching it in the theater. It was a bad creative decision. It can be forgotten about because of the good things that happen. To me, there were no really good scenes in TLJ. It was a mess, and as I said earlier, it is lazy. It never took time to build up its own moments, it just figured people would love it if we just copied stuff from another Star Wars film. That's insulting. It's cynical, and I'm shocked how many people buy into it. You want to do something that's different with Star Wars, that's great. I loved Knights of the Old Republic. It wasn't perfect, but it used the Star Wars tropes in new ways and created a fairly fresh story. Even Rebels, which I hate about 50% of the time, is far more original, and far more emotionally resonating, than this garbage Disney keeps vomiting up onto the big screen.

43 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

Hyperspace in Star Wars has been about removing one's self from known space and into "hyper" space. Otherwise there are billions of piece of debris that would destroy your ship en route.

Actually, rewatch Episode 4, when Han explains hyperspace calculations to Luke.

6 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

Actually, rewatch Episode 4, when Han explains hyperspace calculations to Luke.

I know it word for word. According to the Force Awakens cross-sections book Hyperdrives manipulated hypermatter particles in order to thrust a starship into hyperspace by taking advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of real space. According to the current Star Wars Databank, that was scrubbed by Disney: "Hyperdrives allow starships to travel faster than the speed of light, crossing space through the alternate dimension of hyperspace. Large objects in normal space cast “mass shadows” in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps must be precisely calculated to avoid collisions." Which is ironic, since it was Han Solo who warned of it, yet, somehow has no problem using hyperspace to bypass the shields on starkiller base. So Starkiller base wasn't big enough then, to cast a mass shadow? Then I wouldn't imagine those ships would be either. Even so, it would be a threat to the ship in hyperspace, not to the ship in real space.

but he did't fly through the Starkiller Base. He did fly through it's energy shield. Raw energy does not have a mass?

But really, what's the biggest difference between Star Wars and Star Trek? Technobabble. Star Wars has none, Star Trek is full of it.

Best answer to a question towards the creators of BSG: "How does the FTL drive work?" "It works great."