57 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I'm a huge fan of both, but saving Star Wars? What? Star Wars is one of the most universally loved movie franchises of all time. The EU authors, Timothy Zahn in particular, added great material, that enriched the Star Wars universe, but I'd hardly say it saved it.

Most Star Wars fans have probably never even picked up a Star Wars novel, let alone relied on the EU to save it.

In terms of being a continuing thing, while “save” may be a dramatic turn, it certainly did reignite interest. The films had come and gone, with no indication that there would be any more. An RPG (with a niche audience), a couple of Ewok TV movies, a Droids cartoon, and an Ewoks cartoon weren’t exactly setting the larger fan base on fire.

I initially had high hopes for the new canon, until The Force Awakens, then I realised they ditched the old absurdity for a new absurdity with added grade eight political commentary. The old canon was not perfect, but it was better then what it got replaced with. With the Last Jedi they even destroyed a lot of the old Star Wars aesthetic that TFA had even maintained.

And to the above poster, most hardcore Star Wars fans I knew got into Star Wars not through the movies but through the games. Usually the X-Wing games for people a little older than me (mid and late 20's) and the KotOR games for people my age (early 20's). The people who were under the age of 5 when RotS came out generally weren't too interested and preferred crap like Harry Potter.

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So, I checked my bookshelf...Aftermath is the book I was referring to, and is absolutely unreadable. I have, literally (pun intended) never attempted to read a book that is so poorly written that I could not get past page 10. The choppy, comic book scene-setting style is atrocious when used for more than a line or two here and there.

You can't gate relevant information behind that garbage and then hold it up as proof that the new series has more substance or setting than can be found in the films alone.

As for the argument that the political situation is relevant only to setting-conscious fans...that may be true, but here's the problem. Either the film is designed to build upon the earlier movies, or it's built to stand on its own. If it's the former, then it has to explain why we are essentially in the same situation as we found ourselves at the beginning of A New Hope despite 30 years passing, and all of the events through the end of Return of the Jedi having transpired, and if it's the latter , then we need to know more about the relationship between Han Solo and his son, and why Kylo Ren is the miserable bastard he is now, in order for the scene between the two of them to hold enough weight for the viewer. That scene is predicated on the existing nostalgia and love for Han Solo: we don't get enough information in the movie for it to have the gravity, the emotional impact, that it is clearly meant to have without assuming the viewer is carrying Star Wars baggage already. Similarly, the absence (or even just the notion ) of Luke Skywalker requires the viewer to be familiar with the original trilogy, The Force Awakens does basically nothing to explain who this guy is, or why he's so **** important that these warring rival factions are expending so much time and energy looking for him.

So, if we have to know who Luke is, and we have to have an existing love for Han (and Chewie--there are several jokes in the movie that work only if you are already familiar with these characters), and, to a lesser degree already revere Leia...then how do you deal with a movie whose entire premise says, "Yeah, I know the Rebellion essentially won their war against the psuedo-Nazi Empire at the end of the last movie thirty years ago , but this movie is going to revolve around a Rebellion fighting psuedo-Nazis who are almost entirely indistinguishable from the Empire with zero explanation as to why the only apparent change in the universe over 30 years is that it's actually rolled back 34 or 35 years, to before the Rebellion succeeded."

That's my problem with TFA: we don't get enough information to make the things that are unique to the film at all relevant or impactful on their own, and we get no explanation as to why we're in the mess we find ourselves in.

For TLJ, it just repeats huge chunks of The Empire Strikes Back, and fails to build on any of the stuff the first film failed to deliver. For the last year, every person I've brought up my issues with TFA with has said, "It's part of a trilogy, they had to save it for the next movie," and yet, the next movie does almost nothing to help the first. Sure, we get some explanation as to why Kylo and Luke had a falling out, but there's none that explains how or why Snoke got involved, or why Kylo was going dark in the first place, and, again, we are shown Kylo being torn between his rage and his remaining attachment to his mother, but in only the most tenuous fashion, but without any explanation as to what happened between him and his parents. Is his rage justified? Is it just a whiny brat rebelling against his parents in an especially homicidal fashion?

TLJ doesn't give us much more for Rey's character, either--she's so one dimensional: she wants to find her parents, or her heritage, and she repeats the line that the galaxy needs Luke, as if she is no more than the recording of Leia beseeching Obi Wan so long ago. Eventually we're shown glimmers of her struggle to make sense of her powers, and find her place, but they're just that; glimpses. Then everyone else is flat, or pointless.

Ultimately, probably the single biggest problem with both movies, even beyond the aforementioned issues, is that the films are a pile of action scenes stacked on top of each other, eschewing the pacing and development, and memorable dialogue from the original trilogy. There's so little interpersonal time spent in these films. Everyone is so separated, and every scene just leads into another overwrought action scene. And these weren't even that good . The prequel trilogy was fairly terrible, but at least I can be thoroughly satisfied watching a video compilation of all the lightsaber duels stitched together and set to Duel of the Fates, but none of the scenes in either of these movies really came up to even that level. The only scene I really liked in TLJ was when Luke projects himself to **** with Kylo, and even that they dropped the ball on--Luke embarrassed the little **** in front of all his men, but there's no moment where we see the impact of that, and Luke's jibe that he'll see Kylo around loses it's punch when he dissipates into the Force immediately after. So, all his angst and anguish over two movies comes down to, essentially, playing a practical joke on the bastard who betrayed him and murdered his best friend (by the way, Luke gets informed of this and then we don't even get to see his reaction! And he basically never touches back on this loss, or wound, again), and feels satisfied enough to become one with the Force.

******* awful.

The few people in this thread are quite honestly the only people I've heard making this particular complaint about knowledge being gated behind books, so I don't really buy it. Star Wars never explained exactly how the Empire rose until like 20 years after the fact, or who the Emperor really was, or what the Jedi were really like, and there's plenty of others stuff that was never explained fully, and I just think these complaints are finding things to complain about.

Rey is far from one-dimensional - if you think she is, then you must have felt the same way about Luke, because he had essentially the same bits of development in ANH and ESB.

16 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

How does this square with the couple hundred million or so people who've watched these movies and not been left adrift?

And how many of those people saw the movie because: Oooh Lightsaber fight! Oooh Spaceships! Awesome Explosions!

I'm not saying that the Star Wars movies are great Films, but they should have more depth and appeal than a Battlefront game.

<Double Posted>

1 hour ago, Felswrath said:

And how many of those people saw the movie because: Oooh Lightsaber fight! Oooh Spaceships! Awesome Explosions!

I'm not saying that the Star Wars movies are great Films, but they should have more depth and appeal than a Battlefront game.

How and why people watch movies is up to them. I'm not judgmental about it.

But cleary this movie has broader appeal than that, or people wouldn't be able to analyze and dissect it. They'd come up empty.

9 hours ago, yeti1069 said:

****MAJOR SPOILERS*****

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As for the argument that the political situation is relevant only to setting-conscious fans...that may be true, but here's the problem. Either the film is designed to build upon the earlier movies, or it's built to stand on its own. If it's the former, then it has to explain why we are essentially in the same situation as we found ourselves at the beginning of A New Hope despite 30 years passing, and all of the events through the end of Return of the Jedi having transpired, and if it's the latter , then we need to know more about the relationship between Han Solo and his son, and why Kylo Ren is the miserable bastard he is now, in order for the scene between the two of them to hold enough weight for the viewer. That scene is predicated on the existing nostalgia and love for Han Solo: we don't get enough information in the movie for it to have the gravity, the emotional impact, that it is clearly meant to have without assuming the viewer is carrying Star Wars baggage already. Similarly, the absence (or even just the notion ) of Luke Skywalker requires the viewer to be familiar with the original trilogy, The Force Awakens does basically nothing to explain who this guy is, or why he's so **** important that these warring rival factions are expending so much time and energy looking for him.

So, if we have to know who Luke is, and we have to have an existing love for Han (and Chewie--there are several jokes in the movie that work only if you are already familiar with these characters), and, to a lesser degree already revere Leia...then how do you deal with a movie whose entire premise says, "Yeah, I know the Rebellion essentially won their war against the psuedo-Nazi Empire at the end of the last movie thirty years ago , but this movie is going to revolve around a Rebellion fighting psuedo-Nazis who are almost entirely indistinguishable from the Empire with zero explanation as to why the only apparent change in the universe over 30 years is that it's actually rolled back 34 or 35 years, to before the Rebellion succeeded."

That's my problem with TFA: we don't get enough information to make the things that are unique to the film at all relevant or impactful on their own, and we get no explanation as to why we're in the mess we find ourselves in.

I don't usually comment a great deal, but this quote touch's upon exactly my primary grievance with this particular setting is; it is one thing to be too focused on the political commentary, but it's quite another to not address the reasons at all, especially in the first movie. All the time it was bleeting about "must find Luke Skywalker, before other guys find Luke Skywalker, because Luke Skywalker will save us from the first order like space jesus", it could have easily set the setting. "This is the first order, some imperial loyalists have been secretly diverting republic funding for some means, my sources have encovered this gigantic movement established in wild space called the First Order! This is connected to the slaughter at the Jedi temple. This information MUST reach the resistance movement before it's too late because they are gearing up for something big. And here is the information I was able to uncover on where Luke might have gone. Yes! Luke Skywalker still lives!"

That was all they had to do. A couple of sentences establishing the status quo (The republic is still around, but imperial loyalists have built up a movement; something is coming which is contained within this data that must make it to the resistance movement. THEN drop Luke as a mention; having finally uncovered the potential location of the Jedi.). As it was it lacked depth and reason as to how the galaxy could have gone from a happy ever after (Post Endor) to "OMFG THE EMPIRE IS AROUND AND THEY ARE STRIKING BACK", THEY ALSO HAD A NAME CHANGE.

Just seems the trends for Star Wars atm is to be increasingly vague. Even a new hope established the status quo (the Senate was dissolved, Alderaan was a major stronghold of the resistance.) to establish why this state has come around, and then to spend the entire movie on addressing it.

Seriously, it isn't hard. Just set the scene and everything else makes sense. Like when the new order invade, and the secret terror weapon isn't randomly unfurled half way through the movie.

Ironically we got those few sentences on canto

I'm curious about people who complain that Snoke was a limp biscuit, or that we never know enough about him, or where he came from, or who he really is, etc. etc.

Go back to Episodes IV, V, and VI. Forget the Prequels. Forget Rogue One.

ETA: Of course, I'm talking about the Emperor here! *oops*

Episode IV: He's vaguely mentioned once or twice.

Episode V: He's seen as a hologram only, and as a person who obviously commands Vader's allegiance. Which is pretty impressive. But we still have absolutely no hint of his powers or that he's a Sith .

Episode VI: First time we actually see him. He has, what? Six, seven minutes of screentime, tops? We see his powers - he unlocks Luke's manacles with the Force (and Luke is shocked, because NOBODY mentioned that he was a Force user before), and then he shoots Sith lightning for about 12 seconds before his (fatally misjudged) subordinate grabs him and throws him down a well.

That's it. That's all we knew of Palpatine. ****, we didn't even know his name from the movies. We only knew if from the novelisations - and even in Episode IV, it referred to him as manipulating trade organisations and then being controlled by those organisations once he got into power. He came across as less evil overlord and more cheating corporate guy put into office and then controlled by lobbyists (Oh...wait...:0 That's more terrifying than I thought...)

I'd say Tarkin is closer to Snoke's role in the narrative. It's not about being a Force-user or the overlord, it's about facilitating the main villain's story. And that's Vader/Kylo. Tarkin exists so that Vader has someone to talk to, and Snoke exists so that Kylo and Hux have someone to talk to. They're not the main villain, they're secondary bad guys.

It's no coincidence the movies tell us NOTHING about Tarkin.

Compare:

Episode IV: A NEW HOPE

"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. We are given an a brief explanation of the state of the galaxy.

During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. This tells us what happened right before the movie begins, and...

Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy...." ...why the initial scene and characters are important.

Episode V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

"It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy. Update on what has been going on between movies.

Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth.

The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space...." The Empire is looking for the rebels, which leads us to the beginning of the film.

To:

Episode VII: THE FORCE AWAKENS

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. This doesn't really tell us what the state of the galaxy is--just that some new enemy has arisen from the ashes of the old, and that, for some reason, Luke is missing. It also tells us he is the last Jedi, but not why, or why that's relevant, or why the First Order cares.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. Who is the Republic? Presumably, it is the governing body formed after Return of the Jedi, but if it's a governing body, why does it need to support a resistance, rather than field an army? A "resistance" is " an underground organization composed of groups of private individuals working as an opposition force in a conquered country to overthrow the occupying power, usually by acts of sabotage, guerrilla warfare, etc..." Why is a General leading an underground group? How is the First Order an occupying power? This may seem irrelevant, but it doesn't make much sense on its own, and makes even less sense when viewed with the knowledge that the Rebels defeated The Empire in the last movie. And this crawl clearly assumes you've seen the previous films, because it requires you to know who Luke Skywalker is, and that he is important.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts...." This whole crawl, while dallying with galactic politics, really feels like it is leading up to a movie that will be focused on Luke and Leia, and should deal with some interpersonal drama...then the movie just doesn't .

Episode VIII: THE LAST JEDI

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys the merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy. This happened, like, a day ago, right? Rey's first scene picks up just a few moments from where the last film ended. How much time has passed that they're mobilizing to seize control of the galaxy?

Only General Leia Organa's band of RESISTANCE fighters stand against the rising tyranny, certain that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker will return and restore a spark of hope to the fight. Again, a rising tyranny isn't typically opposed by a resistance--the resistance comes after your territory has been taken over.

But the Resistance has been exposed. As the First Order speeds toward the rebel base, the brave heroes mount a desperate escape...." This kind of skips the first part of Empire Strikes Back--the bad guys have already discovered the rebel base. Compare this all to the crawl for ESB: in that, there is mention of the rebels scoring a win in destroying the Death Star, but now are facing a counterattack by the Empire, whereas here, there's no mention of the rebels having scored any sort of victory.

I suppose the core of the problem with the new movies is that they rush from one thing to the next. They breeze by whatever has happened in the galaxy over the last 20+ years, the First Order goes from being unknown (to the viewer) to being the dominant military force in the galaxy in the first couple of seconds of text, basically. The government reads like it's already written-off before the movie begins. Rey becomes an ace Jedi with even less training than Luke had in ANH. Characters jump back and forth across the galaxy in minutes, or hours, rather than hours or days. In the new films, there's hardly any down time, or character development, or exploration. We don't get longer, stiller, quieter shots, really--everything is action, or vapid dialogue, or more action.

We don't know who Snoke is, where he's from, how he (founded?) this new organization, why he cares about Luke, or how he got his grips on Ben Solo.

Tarkin is supposed to be a cog near the top of an evil empire, and fills that role. He isn't the leader, or founder, and doesn't express desires that leave one feeling puzzled. He's an arm of the evil government, analogous in some ways to Nazi Germany, is ruthless, and known to the hero (Leia clearly knows enough about him to recognize and despise him at their first meeting), and they have some back-and-forth dialogue.

The Emperor is explained as having seized control of the government by dissolving the Senate (how, we don't know, but we know he did it, and is now in power of the already-established government--he committed a coop). He becomes impressive, because he cows Darth Vader, who was the most powerful, most evil, character in the films, which lends the Emperor some credence ("Who is this guy that commands DV?!"), and he's mysterious. When we finally meet him, he remains somewhat mysterious, cowled and seated as he is, but reveals to us some of what we need to know: he is also a Force user, Darth Vader, mega-badass, is his apprentice.

Snoke is mentioned a bit, but no one really talks about where he's from, how he came to power, how this organization of his has risen so swiftly, etc... No one really seems to fear him, or speak as though his wrath or presence is momentous, and his lapdog throws temper-tantrums. Kylo is faaar less impressive than Vader. So, Snoke gets less cred through association than the Emperor does, and is mysterious in all the wrong ways, because the answers to the questions about him and the FO are kind of central to what the **** is going on in the two movies.

Yeah, I've heard none of these complaints anywhere else except this thread, so. I really don't think it's that big of a problem for anyone except people who need to know every little detail about everything.

On 12/19/2017 at 2:17 AM, ghatt said:

George Lucas managed just fine without needing tie in material...

Really? Let's compare this to the Original Trilogy (because adding movies 20 years later that explain things doesn't count)

Who was the Emperor? How did he come to power?
How did Darth Vader fall to the dark side?

Or to put it in the way of the OP's questions:

How did the Empire take over the Galaxy? They don't seem to have that many ships, and the Death Star wasn't used before the first movie. And we see only a few Star Destroyers at most. The fleet available at Endor certainly doesn't seem large enough to take over the Galaxy.
And if they're so evil and hated that pretty much everyone seems to be against them, how do they even get enough volunteer Storm Troopers to take over the Galaxy? Pretty much every planet we see seems to be mostly against the Empire.

How can the Rebels be such a small force? It seems all of them were on Yavin IV, since that was "the rebel base" (Tarkin didn't ask for "the rebel bases", making it seem like that was the only one).
And how couldn't the Rebellion grow after the Empire blew up the peace loving planet of Alderaan without any explanation. A solid 90% of the galaxy must have been against the Empire after that, so why is the entire Rebellion hiding on the Hoth base in ESB?


The point here is that there's a TON of stuff that simply wasn't explained in the OT, that we just accepted because you don't really need those answers. You might want them, but you don't need them to enjoy the movies.

The problem is that people have been spoiled with background stories and fill-in-explanations for most of the stuff you could ever wonder about in Star Wars and now they expect to have all that explained in the movies, instead of having to read through books and comics.

Hi,

take a look at history.

Hitler rose from a destroyed germany and build up a big army. Apeacement policy of the other nations allowed hitler to grow strong.

it didnt tako long for him to invade poland, france, czech...

A lot of other nations sympathized with hitler because they wanted to use the war for their own agendas (turkey, whats croatia today, italy, Franco (spain), japan, ...) and dont forget belfast had a party when bombs were falling in london

other nations/organisations took benefit of the rageing war (switzerland/vatikan/...)

greetings

H

I like all the star wars movies. I like the new canon better than whats now legends (espacially yuzhan vong are silly).

Who doesnt like ep VII and VIII is totally allow to do that, because everyone has a different taste.

But still, i can not see through some complaints...

yeah ok, ep VIII has some flaws, but so does the OT

ep IV had such a big flaw disney had to make a movie to repair it, which is one of the best SW movies (yes, i m talking about R1)

so compaining about something in VII and VIII but praising the same things in IV, V and VI is without credibility

Greetings

H

On 2017-12-21 at 3:03 PM, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, I've heard none of these complaints anywhere else except this thread, so. I really don't think it's that big of a problem for anyone except people who need to know every little detail about everything.

These complaints have been featured in forums, blog posts, news stories and by a huge segment of the fan base. Saying you haven’t heard them doesn’t make them have any less resonance with the very large group that does. And remember, for every detractor speaking in this forum that you so casually dismiss, there are readers like myself who haven’t commented and yet find many of those points fairly accurate.

Many of the fans I know are split rather evenly between accepting the new stories because they are new and it’s always good to have something new vs. fans who have completely disavowed these movies as ever existing and have sworn never to make the mistake of seeing one again.

In speaking to my brother, who is in the latter group, I am always amazed by the outright anger the new setting brings forth. I for one don’t get angry, and plan on watching the new movies and reading the new books, but even then I pick and choose the things I like and don’t, as opposed to universally having enjoyed everything that had previously been canon and whole deaths of the EU.

On 18.12.2017 at 11:17 AM, Stan Fresh said:

I don't know about irrelevant. I got a bit of a vibe that Canto Bight was all about dancing on the Titanic while it's sinking. Once the First Order had solidified its position, it would just nationalize any corporation it wanted. Just like the Empire.

And those cooperations prospered during the empire, even more so than they did under the corrupt republic. Being nationalized did not reduce the influence and power of those at the helm of those mega corporations. It's the same large corporations profiting from the war trough all era's of star wars.

You always seem to have people who claim to know what ‘Canon’ is. Then, some who claim that it’s clearly defined. The truth is that a lot of it is there to explain what happened in the movies and fill in gaps. Some prefer their comics, some prefer the novels, some cartoons, and some stick to *just* the movies. All-in-all, it’s never going to be a stable, constant thing. It'll change with each successive movie and people will go off in a panic to explain away why the new movie didn't jive with *existing* *canon*. Meh.... Just go with whatever “floats your boat”, as my old boss used to say.

The First Order

Who says the First Order is doing any of this in secret? What did the Empire mess up so badly? They ran things okay so long as you obeyed their rules. The corruption of the Senate messed things up worse, IMO. The Empire dealt with piracy and crime lords quite well.

The New Republic

I don’t see where the New Republic even existed. The Emperor died. Remnants of the Empire remained. The New Order sprang up not long after. Where does the NR come in??? It never got off the ground. Just a dream that never came to be. Apparently, the BIG rebellion had little to no effect.

The Resistance

We’re being led to believe that a handful of people in a space freighter will spark a rebellion and overthrow a galactic empire. That Luke Skywalker destroying the Death Star wasn’t enough, but a nearly anonymous illusionary delaying action was “heroic” and his absence from the galaxy from this point on will do wonders? SO….the LIVE Skywalker didn’t work, but a missing, dead, illusionary Skywalker will work??? HUH???

6 minutes ago, DurosSpacer said:

What did the Empire mess up so badly?

Literally everything.

1 hour ago, DurosSpacer said:

You always seem to have people who claim to know what ‘Canon’ is. Then, some who claim that it’s clearly defined. The truth is that a lot of it is there to explain what happened in the movies and fill in gaps. Some prefer their comics, some prefer the novels, some cartoons, and some stick to *just* the movies. All-in-all, it’s never going to be a stable, constant thing. It'll change with each successive movie and people will go off in a panic to explain away why the new movie didn't jive with *existing* *canon*. Meh.... Just go with whatever “floats your boat”, as my old boss used to say.

The First Order

Who says the First Order is doing any of this in secret? What did the Empire mess up so badly? They ran things okay so long as you obeyed their rules. The corruption of the Senate messed things up worse, IMO. The Empire dealt with piracy and crime lords quite well.

The New Republic

I don’t see where the New Republic even existed. The Emperor died. Remnants of the Empire remained. The New Order sprang up not long after. Where does the NR come in??? It never got off the ground. Just a dream that never came to be. Apparently, the BIG rebellion had little to no effect.

The Resistance

We’re being led to believe that a handful of people in a space freighter will spark a rebellion and overthrow a galactic empire. That Luke Skywalker destroying the Death Star wasn’t enough, but a nearly anonymous illusionary delaying action was “heroic” and his absence from the galaxy from this point on will do wonders? SO….the LIVE Skywalker didn’t work, but a missing, dead, illusionary Skywalker will work??? HUH???

The New Republic existed longer than the Empire did by the time of TFA. Why don’t they seem to have a presence in your mind? Because they were given a firework laded send off in the first film of the trilogy with some bright lights in the sky.

And hopefully JJ will have Luke pop up on the Falcon in his underwear because Yoda & co had enough of him staying alone on Ach-Tu revealing they have a rather unusual sense of humour!

Yes I know Rian said it was mistake but he left it in so JJ kindly Gandalf the White him back ok??

If it didn't happen while the creator was heading it, it's not canon.

Just such a weird concept that canon would be something beyond what a creator of a piece agrees to.

43 minutes ago, Rebelarch86 said:

If it didn't happen while the creator was heading it, it's not canon.

Just such a weird concept that canon would be something beyond what a creator of a piece agrees to.